so how and why...
Feb 14th 2010, 4:18 am
#17
**** it we'll do it live
Joined: Oct 2004
Location: Dubai
Posts: 7,892
Re: so how and why...
...did our ideas of what is acceptable and what isn't change...
i'm watching spartacus at the moment (err...i may have mentioned it, lol) and people used to go and watch the gladiators fight it out to the death...there was also an underworld of fighting in the pits, where there were no rules, it was literally fight as dirty as you can to kill your opponent...people loved it and the more gruesome it was, the better...
at that time, sex was also very liberal, as was homosexuality...
so...when did we decide this was all wrong...? and why did we...? would genuinely be interested to know...
MM, xx
i'm watching spartacus at the moment (err...i may have mentioned it, lol) and people used to go and watch the gladiators fight it out to the death...there was also an underworld of fighting in the pits, where there were no rules, it was literally fight as dirty as you can to kill your opponent...people loved it and the more gruesome it was, the better...
at that time, sex was also very liberal, as was homosexuality...
so...when did we decide this was all wrong...? and why did we...? would genuinely be interested to know...
MM, xx
Feb 14th 2010, 4:22 am
#18
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Jan 2007
Location: By the old canal...
Posts: 7,715
Re: so how and why...
...did our ideas of what is acceptable and what isn't change...
i'm watching spartacus at the moment (err...i may have mentioned it, lol) and people used to go and watch the gladiators fight it out to the death...there was also an underworld of fighting in the pits, where there were no rules, it was literally fight as dirty as you can to kill your opponent...people loved it and the more gruesome it was, the better...
at that time, sex was also very liberal, as was homosexuality...
so...when did we decide this was all wrong...? and why did we...? would genuinely be interested to know...
MM, xx
i'm watching spartacus at the moment (err...i may have mentioned it, lol) and people used to go and watch the gladiators fight it out to the death...there was also an underworld of fighting in the pits, where there were no rules, it was literally fight as dirty as you can to kill your opponent...people loved it and the more gruesome it was, the better...
at that time, sex was also very liberal, as was homosexuality...
so...when did we decide this was all wrong...? and why did we...? would genuinely be interested to know...
MM, xx
Firstly, you have to define the cultural context of which you speak - you're comparing a Greek code of morality to, I presume, a modern British context.
Let's simplify things and just restrict the dialogue to British morality.
To take a whistle-stop, reverse ride through modern British morality, let's go from today backwards:
Today - the status quo of a liberated society.
Stop 1 - the Sixties; a cultural revolution driven by forces such as a wave of immigration, resulting in the importation of a drug culture, economic prosperity and the resulting financial empowerment of youth, the aftermath of Vietnam, Cold War paranoia.
Stop 2 - The aftermath of WWII. The UK, flat broke after the war, going cap in hand to the USA, forced finally to abandon its Empire. A resultant mind-shift of the British people from the world's largest empire to an Island nation. This was a killer blow to Victorianism, and its associated ideals although it would be another decade before libertarianism began to emerge during the Fifties - nevertheless, 40's Britain was still dominated by the stiff-upper lip culture and sexual repression.
Stop 3 - Early 20th C Philosophy. If you look at the intellectual state of UK thought at the turn of the Century, at its best we see the effect of British Empiricism coupled with European phenomenology. A growing band of intellectuals grapple with the death of God, and question man's moral position in a world without religion - TS Eliot's Wasteland is a prime example, James Joyce's Ulysses also depicted man as a lost creature living outside of God's universe and ultimately celebrated the mundanity of being, paintings of the Vorticists reflect the same bleak moral landscape. The devastation of WWI added to the sense of moral vacuum in British thought - cf Wilfred Owen et al, the national psyche was irreparably damaged. The first wave of Modern hedonism occurred in the Twenties, a hint of things to come in the 60s - had the Great Depression and ensuing WWII not happened, we may well have reached the state of moral liberation far earlier.
Stop 4 - Victorianism. The yardstick by which Modern Britain calibrates it's current state. Victorianism was the child of 200 years of Puritasnism, and ultimately was a cumulation of Protestant thought and reformation begun by Oliver Cromwell. Let us remember that it was rife with contradiction - as Dickens and in earlier times Blake pointed out. In a sense, there was still a form of control driven by the marriage of Church and State - with the Monarch being titular head of the C of E and being the so-called representative of God on Earth (a concept that harks right back to the Old Testament King's). Interestingly, such morality was largely the province of the middle and upper classes - the working classes were, perhaps, far more lusty and ruddy, at least in the perception of the upper classes, hence their assignment as being "base".....
Is that far enough back? The Middle Ages and beyond become a little darker - but a brief read of Chaucer would certainly indicate a much bawdier and rowdy society than we know today.....
Anyway, my ha'pennysworth is that our moral sense is a thing that evolves and reflects the current state of our culture - dear old Socrates was obsessed by the question of whether there are certain acts that are always moral in any context. Ultimately, he concluded there were no such things (and paid for it with his life)- yet it took about 2000 years for Neitzsche to repeat this message and have a receptive audience (and paid for it with insanity, syphallis and death).
and you know... I kinda think I might pay to watch 2 people fight to the death.....
Feb 14th 2010, 4:28 am
#19
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Thread Starter
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 18,187
Re: so how and why...
That's a very complex question TBH.
Firstly, you have to define the cultural context of which you speak - you're comparing a Greek code of morality to, I presume, a modern British context.
Let's simplify things and just restrict the dialogue to British morality.
To take a whistle-stop, reverse ride through modern British morality, let's go from today backwards:
Today - the status quo of a liberated society.
Stop 1 - the Sixties; a cultural revolution driven by forces such as a wave of immigration, resulting in the importation of a drug culture, economic prosperity and the resulting financial empowerment of youth, the aftermath of Vietnam, Cold War paranoia.
Stop 2 - The aftermath of WWII. The UK, flat broke after the war, going cap in hand to the USA, forced finally to abandon its Empire. A resultant mind-shift of the British people from the world's largest empire to an Island nation. This was a killer blow to Victorianism, and its associated ideals although it would be another decade before libertarianism began to emerge during the Fifties - nevertheless, 40's Britain was still dominated by the stiff-upper lip culture and sexual repression.
Stop 3 - Early 20th C Philosophy. If you look at the intellectual state of UK thought at the turn of the Century, at its best we see the effect of British Empiricism coupled with European phenomenology. A growing band of intellectuals grapple with the death of God, and question man's moral position in a world without religion - TS Eliot's Wasteland is a prime example, James Joyce's Ulysses also depicted man as a lost creature living outside of God's universe and ultimately celebrated the mundanity of being, paintings of the Vorticists reflect the same bleak moral landscape. The devastation of WWI added to the sense of moral vacuum in British thought - cf Wilfred Owen et al, the national psyche was irreparably damaged. The first wave of Modern hedonism occurred in the Twenties, a hint of things to come in the 60s - had the Great Depression and ensuing WWII not happened, we may well have reached the state of moral liberation far earlier.
Stop 4 - Victorianism. The yardstick by which Modern Britain calibrates it's current state. Victorianism was the child of 200 years of Puritasnism, and ultimately was a cumulation of Protestant thought and reformation begun by Oliver Cromwell. Let us remember that it was rife with contradiction - as Dickens and in earlier times Blake pointed out. In a sense, there was still a form of control driven by the marriage of Church and State - with the Monarch being titular head of the C of E and being the so-called representative of God on Earth (a concept that harks right back to the Old Testament King's). Interestingly, such morality was largely the province of the middle and upper classes - the working classes were, perhaps, far more lusty and ruddy, at least in the perception of the upper classes, hence their assignment as being "base".....
Is that far enough back? The Middle Ages and beyond become a little darker - but a brief read of Chaucer would certainly indicate a much bawdier and rowdy society than we know today.....
Anyway, my ha'pennysworth is that our moral sense is a thing that evolves and reflects the current state of our culture - dear old Socrates was obsessed by the question of whether there are certain acts that are always moral in any context. Ultimately, he concluded there were no such things (and paid for it with his life)- yet it took about 2000 years for Neitzsche to repeat this message and have a receptive audience (and paid for it with insanity, syphallis and death).
and you know... I kinda think I might pay to watch 2 people fight to the death.....
Firstly, you have to define the cultural context of which you speak - you're comparing a Greek code of morality to, I presume, a modern British context.
Let's simplify things and just restrict the dialogue to British morality.
To take a whistle-stop, reverse ride through modern British morality, let's go from today backwards:
Today - the status quo of a liberated society.
Stop 1 - the Sixties; a cultural revolution driven by forces such as a wave of immigration, resulting in the importation of a drug culture, economic prosperity and the resulting financial empowerment of youth, the aftermath of Vietnam, Cold War paranoia.
Stop 2 - The aftermath of WWII. The UK, flat broke after the war, going cap in hand to the USA, forced finally to abandon its Empire. A resultant mind-shift of the British people from the world's largest empire to an Island nation. This was a killer blow to Victorianism, and its associated ideals although it would be another decade before libertarianism began to emerge during the Fifties - nevertheless, 40's Britain was still dominated by the stiff-upper lip culture and sexual repression.
Stop 3 - Early 20th C Philosophy. If you look at the intellectual state of UK thought at the turn of the Century, at its best we see the effect of British Empiricism coupled with European phenomenology. A growing band of intellectuals grapple with the death of God, and question man's moral position in a world without religion - TS Eliot's Wasteland is a prime example, James Joyce's Ulysses also depicted man as a lost creature living outside of God's universe and ultimately celebrated the mundanity of being, paintings of the Vorticists reflect the same bleak moral landscape. The devastation of WWI added to the sense of moral vacuum in British thought - cf Wilfred Owen et al, the national psyche was irreparably damaged. The first wave of Modern hedonism occurred in the Twenties, a hint of things to come in the 60s - had the Great Depression and ensuing WWII not happened, we may well have reached the state of moral liberation far earlier.
Stop 4 - Victorianism. The yardstick by which Modern Britain calibrates it's current state. Victorianism was the child of 200 years of Puritasnism, and ultimately was a cumulation of Protestant thought and reformation begun by Oliver Cromwell. Let us remember that it was rife with contradiction - as Dickens and in earlier times Blake pointed out. In a sense, there was still a form of control driven by the marriage of Church and State - with the Monarch being titular head of the C of E and being the so-called representative of God on Earth (a concept that harks right back to the Old Testament King's). Interestingly, such morality was largely the province of the middle and upper classes - the working classes were, perhaps, far more lusty and ruddy, at least in the perception of the upper classes, hence their assignment as being "base".....
Is that far enough back? The Middle Ages and beyond become a little darker - but a brief read of Chaucer would certainly indicate a much bawdier and rowdy society than we know today.....
Anyway, my ha'pennysworth is that our moral sense is a thing that evolves and reflects the current state of our culture - dear old Socrates was obsessed by the question of whether there are certain acts that are always moral in any context. Ultimately, he concluded there were no such things (and paid for it with his life)- yet it took about 2000 years for Neitzsche to repeat this message and have a receptive audience (and paid for it with insanity, syphallis and death).
and you know... I kinda think I might pay to watch 2 people fight to the death.....
MM, xx
Feb 14th 2010, 4:30 am
#20
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,872
Re: so how and why...
Maybe the health and safety officer put a stop to it all!
Feb 14th 2010, 4:40 am
#21
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Jan 2007
Location: By the old canal...
Posts: 7,715
Re: so how and why...
LOL - I most likely would puke my guts out. But there is a certain morbid fascination in the idea....
Feb 14th 2010, 4:52 am
#22
Powered by cows
Joined: Jul 2004
Location: currently Dubai, ex UK
Posts: 4,582
Re: so how and why...
Feb 14th 2010, 10:42 pm
#23
why ayeeeee man!
Joined: Jan 2008
Location: Disco Gardens...
Posts: 11,370
Re: so how and why...
...did our ideas of what is acceptable and what isn't change...
i'm watching spartacus at the moment (err...i may have mentioned it, lol) and people used to go and watch the gladiators fight it out to the death...there was also an underworld of fighting in the pits, where there were no rules, it was literally fight as dirty as you can to kill your opponent...people loved it and the more gruesome it was, the better...
at that time, sex was also very liberal, as was homosexuality...
so...when did we decide this was all wrong...? and why did we...? would genuinely be interested to know...
MM, xx
i'm watching spartacus at the moment (err...i may have mentioned it, lol) and people used to go and watch the gladiators fight it out to the death...there was also an underworld of fighting in the pits, where there were no rules, it was literally fight as dirty as you can to kill your opponent...people loved it and the more gruesome it was, the better...
at that time, sex was also very liberal, as was homosexuality...
so...when did we decide this was all wrong...? and why did we...? would genuinely be interested to know...
MM, xx
Because in thailand and places like that there are loads of gays people all over the place and they don't care, not to mention all the transexuals etc.
The UK is still very prim and proper and of course over here and all the muslim places there are literally thousands of puffs hiding away and bumming each other behind closed doors.
And don't all the greeks bum each other?
In fact I think is south america it goes on lots, I know Pele once told a story of before a big cup final they got a rent boy in and the while Santos team did him.
Poor lad.
Feb 15th 2010, 12:05 am
#24
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 13,553
Re: so how and why...
well I guess you're talking about the UK?
Because in thailand and places like that there are loads of gays people all over the place and they don't care, not to mention all the transexuals etc.
The UK is still very prim and proper and of course over here and all the muslim places there are literally thousands of puffs hiding away and bumming each other behind closed doors.
And don't all the greeks bum each other?
In fact I think is south america it goes on lots, I know Pele once told a story of before a big cup final they got a rent boy in and the while Santos team did him.
Poor lad.
Because in thailand and places like that there are loads of gays people all over the place and they don't care, not to mention all the transexuals etc.
The UK is still very prim and proper and of course over here and all the muslim places there are literally thousands of puffs hiding away and bumming each other behind closed doors.
And don't all the greeks bum each other?
In fact I think is south america it goes on lots, I know Pele once told a story of before a big cup final they got a rent boy in and the while Santos team did him.
Poor lad.
What - on the pitch???
Feb 15th 2010, 12:41 am
#25
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Thread Starter
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 18,187
Re: so how and why...
well I guess you're talking about the UK?
Because in thailand and places like that there are loads of gays people all over the place and they don't care, not to mention all the transexuals etc.
The UK is still very prim and proper and of course over here and all the muslim places there are literally thousands of puffs hiding away and bumming each other behind closed doors.
And don't all the greeks bum each other?
In fact I think is south america it goes on lots, I know Pele once told a story of before a big cup final they got a rent boy in and the while Santos team did him.
Poor lad.
Because in thailand and places like that there are loads of gays people all over the place and they don't care, not to mention all the transexuals etc.
The UK is still very prim and proper and of course over here and all the muslim places there are literally thousands of puffs hiding away and bumming each other behind closed doors.
And don't all the greeks bum each other?
In fact I think is south america it goes on lots, I know Pele once told a story of before a big cup final they got a rent boy in and the while Santos team did him.
Poor lad.
it's more that it was widespread then...the norm rather than the niche...dunno, suppose the more i think about it, the more things haven't really changed...
whatever, the welsh guy who plays spartacus...i soooo would, lol...
MM, xx
Feb 15th 2010, 2:22 am
#26
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 13,553
Re: so how and why...
no wasn't particularly thinking of the uk, i've got quite a few bezzies who are gay and lived in soho so would see it all the time...
it's more that it was widespread then...the norm rather than the niche...dunno, suppose the more i think about it, the more things haven't really changed...
whatever, the welsh guy who plays spartacus...i soooo would, lol...
MM, xx
it's more that it was widespread then...the norm rather than the niche...dunno, suppose the more i think about it, the more things haven't really changed...
whatever, the welsh guy who plays spartacus...i soooo would, lol...
MM, xx
Black, is he?
Feb 15th 2010, 2:32 am
#28
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 13,553
Re: so how and why...
I'm always reminded of 'Airplane'............. "Joey, do you enjoy gladiator movies? Have you ever seen a grown man naked?"
