And So It Begins....
Jan 8th 2015, 8:54 am
#76
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Re: And So It Begins....
All of it is an unmitigated tragedy, such a horrendous atrocity. The callousness of the shooters, awful.
I see another shooting happened this morning. France's cultural issues are about to get a whole lot worse.
Do you read that a bomb went off in Yemen yesterday, outside a Police School? It killed over 30 people.
I see another shooting happened this morning. France's cultural issues are about to get a whole lot worse.
Do you read that a bomb went off in Yemen yesterday, outside a Police School? It killed over 30 people.
Jan 8th 2015, 3:59 pm
#77
"Insert witty title here"
Joined: Nov 2012
Location: dxb
Posts: 2,251
Re: And So It Begins....
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Jan 9th 2015, 6:33 am
#78
**** it we'll do it live
Joined: Oct 2004
Location: Dubai
Posts: 7,892
Re: And So It Begins....
unfortunately its also an almost daily occurrence in the muslim world
Jan 12th 2015, 4:25 pm
#79
"Insert witty title here"
Joined: Nov 2012
Location: dxb
Posts: 2,251
Re: And So It Begins....
It is a matter of fact that the number one cause of murder among Muslims is other Muslims. For a 'religion of peace' they certainly seem to have an inordinate number of conflicts when compared to other beliefs. Perhaps the continued marriage of religious and ethnic and tribal identity is not helping things though but there has to be at least some elements of scripture and doctrine that support this, no matter how small for it to be so deep and ingrained in so many places.
If you were a member of a political party or organisation with as much murder and intolerance as Islam you'd resign in protest even though the majority are peaceful...
If you were a member of a political party or organisation with as much murder and intolerance as Islam you'd resign in protest even though the majority are peaceful...
You know in my opinion, religion (any religion) is nothing but the perception of the particular person practicing it. Ill try and explain what I am trying to say whats in my head, so bear with me :
You grow up told a certain set of unquestionable stories and you believe in them blindly. You are told to do such and such physical act of worship at such and such time of the day or day of the week etc etc, and you do it blindly. You do not question why you need to do it, not when you are young. But then from that point onwards, I would think early 20s, thats where a few factors come into play for each person and it is like a series of on and off switches, or in binary like a 1 or a 0, so if the first switch is off then the perception (or understanding of religion for that person) will now go a certain path till it comes across another switch and then there again if 1 then road A and if 2 then road B. Do you know what I am trying to say? I am having a hard time to explain this concept in words. Anyway, the variables or switches or factors in my opinion are, not in any ascending or descending order :
1. Good parents, educated enough to know right from wrong and who will make sure to get involved in their child's religious upbringing to make sure he / she grows up having a brain of his own to decide rather than a gray mass of neurons already programmed....alternate is a Tangent
2. Good teachers, specially spiritual teachers, who are aware of the fact that whatever they teach to a child, he will absorb hence it is their moral and ethical duty to educate the child properly....alternate is a Tangent
3. Good friends who have your well being in mind and will point out when they see you staying....alternate is a Tangent
4. Life experiences
5. Atleast an average IQ
6. Availability of free / cheap education or rich parents who can get you a good education (atleast 14 years of study). I strongly believe THIS is as important as the air we breathe.
Now all these switches if on then one results on Road A permanently and probably in time will become a good parent himself to make sure all the switches are on again for his kid.
Get enough switches off and all the tangents combine to give you a completely opposite direction, someone who wants to assert his version of religion on yours because he feels he has the obligation to save you so the both of you can enjoy the life after in heaven with some of those big eyed women everyone talks about all the time
Having said all that, I believe the western civilization has grown up enough and gotten to a stage of free education where almost everyone there grows up with 12-14 years of minimum study that MOST of the factors mentioned above are taken care of...usually automatically. And the Muslim population is still young enough (only 1500 years old) to not realize the importance of their next generations' well being, rather they are getting most of the switches off inherently by birth and are told that since this is just a temporary life, and you will die and go to heaven IF you do this this and this, so the ones creating chaos among us are running free. Now there is something else that I would like to add to this : I think the majority of peace loving muslims are just as much to blame for the minority of anarchists. Why? because almost everyone runs into a hardliner or another atleast a few times in his lifetime and instead of stopping that hardliner from whatever he is spouting from his mouth, the peace loving muslim just keeps quiet and carries on. and THAT is where the issue is. The peace lovers needs to get their heads out of their combined and rather large (thank the oil for that) a**es and cut these guys down. They all know where they are, nobody has the balls to just confront them, thats the problem...why? because then the one confronting the hardliners will be blamed as siding with the infidels.
Bah, I rant and rant and one day I too shall be dust!
Jan 12th 2015, 5:07 pm
#80
Hit 16's
Joined: Mar 2010
Location: Of all the gin joints, in all the towns, in all the world, she walks into mine
Posts: 13,112
Re: And So It Begins....
You know in my opinion, religion (any religion) is nothing but the perception of the particular person practicing it. Ill try and explain what I am trying to say whats in my head, so bear with me :
You grow up told a certain set of unquestionable stories and you believe in them blindly. ... Anyway, the variables or switches or factors in my opinion are, not in any ascending or descending order :
1. Good parents, educated enough to know right from wrong and who will make sure to get involved in their child's religious upbringing to make sure he / she grows up having a brain of his own to decide rather than a gray mass of neurons already programmed....alternate is a Tangent
It's the antithesis of freedom of choice and thought.
Jan 13th 2015, 12:36 pm
#81
"Insert witty title here"
Joined: Nov 2012
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Posts: 2,251
Re: And So It Begins....
I appreciate what you are trying to say, but in many, many instances the process stops at the first "switch" if you have a religion which does not permit any questioning of it, does not permit you to leave it, and compels parents to bring up their children believing in it. There is nothing left to decide, and the neurons are already programmed, in many (most?) cases irreversibly.
It's the antithesis of freedom of choice and thought.
It's the antithesis of freedom of choice and thought.
1. Isnt that the case with all religions? That you are not allowed to question its core values. Or a truer statement would be all religions controlled by men, dont let anyone question it.
2. Dont all parents want their children to grow up believing in what they believe in. I mean even an atheist would probably want his kids to be atheists right? I am NOT saying who is right or wrong here btw! Just a question.
Jan 13th 2015, 5:22 pm
#82
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Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 691
Re: And So It Begins....
It is a matter of fact that the number one cause of murder among Muslims is other Muslims. For a 'religion of peace' they certainly seem to have an inordinate number of conflicts when compared to other beliefs. Perhaps the continued marriage of religious and ethnic and tribal identity is not helping things though but there has to be at least some elements of scripture and doctrine that support this, no matter how small for it to be so deep and ingrained in so many places.
If you were a member of a political party or organisation with as much murder and intolerance as Islam you'd resign in protest even though the majority are peaceful...
If you were a member of a political party or organisation with as much murder and intolerance as Islam you'd resign in protest even though the majority are peaceful...
What the hell!! Are you suggesting that because of the actions of a few hundreds misguided Muslims, one fifth of the human population should be ashamed and abandon their faith!!! I tell who is the one that should be ashamed of himself- it is the one who support or associate himself with a state that only a few months ago killed 500 children and made thousands others homeless and living in tents under a freezing cold weather as we speak right now.
Jan 13th 2015, 5:29 pm
#83
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Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 691
Re: And So It Begins....
You know in my opinion, religion (any religion) is nothing but the perception of the particular person practicing it. Ill try and explain what I am trying to say whats in my head, so bear with me :
You grow up told a certain set of unquestionable stories and you believe in them blindly. You are told to do such and such physical act of worship at such and such time of the day or day of the week etc etc, and you do it blindly. You do not question why you need to do it, not when you are young. But then from that point onwards, I would think early 20s, thats where a few factors come into play for each person and it is like a series of on and off switches, or in binary like a 1 or a 0, so if the first switch is off then the perception (or understanding of religion for that person) will now go a certain path till it comes across another switch and then there again if 1 then road A and if 2 then road B. Do you know what I am trying to say? I am having a hard time to explain this concept in words. Anyway, the variables or switches or factors in my opinion are, not in any ascending or descending order :
1. Good parents, educated enough to know right from wrong and who will make sure to get involved in their child's religious upbringing to make sure he / she grows up having a brain of his own to decide rather than a gray mass of neurons already programmed....alternate is a Tangent
2. Good teachers, specially spiritual teachers, who are aware of the fact that whatever they teach to a child, he will absorb hence it is their moral and ethical duty to educate the child properly....alternate is a Tangent
3. Good friends who have your well being in mind and will point out when they see you staying....alternate is a Tangent
4. Life experiences
5. Atleast an average IQ
6. Availability of free / cheap education or rich parents who can get you a good education (atleast 14 years of study). I strongly believe THIS is as important as the air we breathe.
Now all these switches if on then one results on Road A permanently and probably in time will become a good parent himself to make sure all the switches are on again for his kid.
Get enough switches off and all the tangents combine to give you a completely opposite direction, someone who wants to assert his version of religion on yours because he feels he has the obligation to save you so the both of you can enjoy the life after in heaven with some of those big eyed women everyone talks about all the time
Having said all that, I believe the western civilization has grown up enough and gotten to a stage of free education where almost everyone there grows up with 12-14 years of minimum study that MOST of the factors mentioned above are taken care of...usually automatically. And the Muslim population is still young enough (only 1500 years old) to not realize the importance of their next generations' well being, rather they are getting most of the switches off inherently by birth and are told that since this is just a temporary life, and you will die and go to heaven IF you do this this and this, so the ones creating chaos among us are running free. Now there is something else that I would like to add to this : I think the majority of peace loving muslims are just as much to blame for the minority of anarchists. Why? because almost everyone runs into a hardliner or another atleast a few times in his lifetime and instead of stopping that hardliner from whatever he is spouting from his mouth, the peace loving muslim just keeps quiet and carries on. and THAT is where the issue is. The peace lovers needs to get their heads out of their combined and rather large (thank the oil for that) a**es and cut these guys down. They all know where they are, nobody has the balls to just confront them, thats the problem...why? because then the one confronting the hardliners will be blamed as siding with the infidels.
Bah, I rant and rant and one day I too shall be dust!
Frankly, I really don’t see why you bother to associate yourself with Islam!!! it obviously not suitable for you or your way of life. For example, would I be wrong to suggest that during your life time you have spent far far more time in pubs and bars than you've ever done in mosques (if you have ever been to one, that is)?
Jan 13th 2015, 5:48 pm
#84
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Joined: Sep 2009
Location: Abu Dhabi
Posts: 1,805
Re: And So It Begins....
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What the hell!! Are you suggesting that because of the actions of a few hundreds misguided Muslims, one fifth of the human population should be ashamed and abandon their faith!!! I tell who is the one that should be ashamed of himself- it is the one who support or associate himself with a state that only a few months ago killed 500 children and made thousands others homeless and living in tents under a freezing cold weather as we speak right now.
What the hell!! Are you suggesting that because of the actions of a few hundreds misguided Muslims, one fifth of the human population should be ashamed and abandon their faith!!! I tell who is the one that should be ashamed of himself- it is the one who support or associate himself with a state that only a few months ago killed 500 children and made thousands others homeless and living in tents under a freezing cold weather as we speak right now.
Speak for yourself and your own background mate. You obviously know bugger all of what is going on in the Muslim communities and the kind of work they are doing in the west and beyond. Have you ever heard, for example, of the like of Tareq Ramadan, or Hamza Youisf, at al?
Frankly, I really don’t see why you bother to associate yourself with Islam!!! it obviously not suitable for you or your way of life. For example, would I be wrong to suggest that during your life time you have spent far far more time in pubs and bars than you've ever done in mosques (if you have ever been to one, that is)?
Frankly, I really don’t see why you bother to associate yourself with Islam!!! it obviously not suitable for you or your way of life. For example, would I be wrong to suggest that during your life time you have spent far far more time in pubs and bars than you've ever done in mosques (if you have ever been to one, that is)?
Jan 13th 2015, 6:05 pm
#85
Token Scandinavian Bloke
Joined: Jun 2009
Location: Dubai
Posts: 2,820
Re: And So It Begins....
Jan 13th 2015, 6:38 pm
#86
Hit 16's
Joined: Mar 2010
Location: Of all the gin joints, in all the towns, in all the world, she walks into mine
Posts: 13,112
Re: And So It Begins....
Agreed, but :
1. Isnt that the case with all religions? That you are not allowed to question its core values. Or a truer statement would be all religions controlled by men, dont let anyone question it.
2. Dont all parents want their children to grow up believing in what they believe in. I mean even an atheist would probably want his kids to be atheists right? I am NOT saying who is right or wrong here btw! Just a question.
1. Isnt that the case with all religions? That you are not allowed to question its core values. Or a truer statement would be all religions controlled by men, dont let anyone question it.
2. Dont all parents want their children to grow up believing in what they believe in. I mean even an atheist would probably want his kids to be atheists right? I am NOT saying who is right or wrong here btw! Just a question.
As to parents, yes I agree that most parents want their children to believe the same as they do. As an atheist I would try to reason with any of my children who caught the faith bug (no disrespect intended), but ultimately if they decided that that's what they wanted to believe, then fair enough. But the reverse doesn't appear to be so in Islam, as far as I can perceive, and one cannot ignore the fact that if one is born a Muslim then there is no permitted choice.
I'm genuinely interested in this debate (despite my vehemence against certain posters), and want to hear your views. I'm very well supported by many Muslims where I live, and we interact freely and empathetically, with mutual respect.
Jan 14th 2015, 3:15 am
#87
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Joined: Mar 2012
Location: Dubai, working at Dust World Central
Posts: 3,706
Re: And So It Begins....
I was raised with religion but I was never convinced so let all that slide. My kids could choose either way, I never attempted to influence them on that. Holding my hand to cross the road yes. Do not take sweets from strangers yes. Which sky fairy is the 'right' one, not so much.
Jan 14th 2015, 3:24 am
#88
Account Closed
Joined: Mar 2012
Location: Dubai, working at Dust World Central
Posts: 3,706
Re: And So It Begins....
"As of 2010, over 1.6 billion or about 23.4% of the world population are Muslims. By the percentage of the total population in a region considering themselves Muslim, 24.8% in Asia-Oceania do, 91.2% in the Middle East-North Africa, 29.6% in Sub-Saharan Africa, around 6.0% in Europe, and 0.6% in the Americas." Interesting that it is highly concentrated in third world countries.
ISIS is not a state, it is a religious group. Guess which religion? Maybe the religion of peace as we are constantly told but fail to see much evidence of.
Jan 14th 2015, 6:17 am
#89
"Insert witty title here"
Joined: Nov 2012
Location: dxb
Posts: 2,251
Re: And So It Begins....
You DO realize you just emphatically made my point for me, dont you?
Classic http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Takfiri attitude at the heart of the problem right there. Sad fact is that once this attitude is acquired by someone, it is very very hard to change that person. Sort of like a lost cause. You sir are a troll and a lost cause and I pity the kids, if you have any, growing up with such a hateful father figure. Time and again, I have seen you troll your righteousness here and every time I or anyone tries to engage you in debate, you sod off without answering any questions.
Jan 14th 2015, 8:37 am
#90
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Joined: Nov 2012
Location: dxb
Posts: 2,251
Re: And So It Begins....
Actually--and I don't want to trample on your beliefs, or appear to--but I genuinely think there's a difference. Debate (albeit only in the last 100 years or so, I think) has been possible, and even promoted, in Christian circles (not sure about Judaism). But there appears (at least to me) a near-totalitarian rejection of any debate about Islam: it appears very binary to me (but I admit I may well be wrong).
As to parents, yes I agree that most parents want their children to believe the same as they do. As an atheist I would try to reason with any of my children who caught the faith bug (no disrespect intended), but ultimately if they decided that that's what they wanted to believe, then fair enough. But the reverse doesn't appear to be so in Islam, as far as I can perceive, and one cannot ignore the fact that if one is born a Muslim then there is no permitted choice.
I'm genuinely interested in this debate (despite my vehemence against certain posters), and want to hear your views. I'm very well supported by many Muslims where I live, and we interact freely and empathetically, with mutual respect.
As to parents, yes I agree that most parents want their children to believe the same as they do. As an atheist I would try to reason with any of my children who caught the faith bug (no disrespect intended), but ultimately if they decided that that's what they wanted to believe, then fair enough. But the reverse doesn't appear to be so in Islam, as far as I can perceive, and one cannot ignore the fact that if one is born a Muslim then there is no permitted choice.
I'm genuinely interested in this debate (despite my vehemence against certain posters), and want to hear your views. I'm very well supported by many Muslims where I live, and we interact freely and empathetically, with mutual respect.
Yes I agree with the fact that it is more binary in Islam as far as internal debates go, but only with certain sects of Islam. The Sufi school of thought allows for more debate (kalam) and is more open to the allowance of changes with the time and the socio / political factors surrounding that particular society in that particular time frame.
The http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salafi_movement reject speculative philosophy (kalam) that involves discourse and debate in the development of the Islamic creed. They consider this process a foreign import from Greek philosophy, alien to the original practice of Islam.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wahhabism reject Islamic "theology" (kalam) in favor of strict textualism in interpreting the Quran, and are sometimes described as being in the Athari school.