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Scottish Independence - Yes or No?

View Poll Results: Scottish Independence
I am Scottish and would vote Yes
7
14.89%
I am Scottish and would vote No
6
12.77%
I am Scottish and am undecided
1
2.13%
I am not Scottish and would vote Yes
11
23.40%
I am not Scottish and would vote No
21
44.68%
I am not Scottish and am undecided
1
2.13%
Voters: 47. You may not vote on this poll

Scottish Independence - Yes or No?

Old Nov 29th 2013, 3:36 pm
  #16  
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Default Re: Scottish Independence - Yes or No?

Sorry. I should have been more clear.

Salmond keeps saying that Scotland would automatically be a member of the EU despite that the EU has consistently said Scotland would have to go through the whole rigmarole process of applying for membership, which takes close to a decade plus a vote of approval from all member states. Just one veto can nix Scotland's application, which is where Spain steps in as Spain is nervous if Scotland succeeds then both the Catalonian and Basque regions of Spain will start demanding their own independence.

The EU's overall tone is not keen on seeing an independent Scotland because they have enough problems without having to worry about separatist movements in member countries complicating matters and they're also afraid that an independent Scotland would only encourage Britain, now little more than England with a few appendages, to leave the EU as well (so says my mate in Brussels).

Originally Posted by Bahtatboy View Post
Sorry...WTF has it got to do with Spain? They have a right of veto? Of the proposed split, or something deeper, rooted in EU interference?

BTW (if it is EU-related, which I'm guessing it must be), was bored the other night and ended up watching Farage on YouTube till about 1am. Sent me to bed in a real good humour!
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Old Nov 29th 2013, 5:10 pm
  #17  
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Default Re: Scottish Independence - Yes or No?

The Scottish friends I have spoken to about this all say independence would be very bad for Scotland...and they consider themselves patriotic when it comes to being Scottish.

Alex Salmond is just a whinging fat twat, I expect he's relishing the thought of being able to fiddle his expenses moreso than they do already in Westminster.
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Old Nov 29th 2013, 5:22 pm
  #18  
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Default Re: Scottish Independence - Yes or No?

Originally Posted by Ethos83 View Post
Sorry. I should have been more clear.

Salmond keeps saying that Scotland would automatically be a member of the EU despite that the EU has consistently said Scotland would have to go through the whole rigmarole process of applying for membership, which takes close to a decade plus a vote of approval from all member states. Just one veto can nix Scotland's application, which is where Spain steps in as Spain is nervous if Scotland succeeds then both the Catalonian and Basque regions of Spain will start demanding their own independence.

The EU's overall tone is not keen on seeing an independent Scotland because they have enough problems without having to worry about separatist movements in member countries complicating matters and they're also afraid that an independent Scotland would only encourage Britain, now little more than England with a few appendages, to leave the EU as well (so says my mate in Brussels).
No need to apologise, thanks for the explanation. Interesting to note Salmond's and the EU's differening views on automatic membership. I guess there's nothing in the EU's constitution which deals with the topic, which could mean that an independent Scotland would seek a judicial ruling on their automatic inclusion, which would probably take as long as the 10 years to go through the application rigmarole. Logic would surely suggest that if the constituent parts of a member state become separate, then those constituents parts remain / become members. In fact, if The United Kingdom of [England, Wales and Scotland] and Northern Ireland were to be no longer comprised of those four parts, why should the 3/4s remaining have any greater right to automatically stay in the EU than the other 1/4? What if Scotland and NI decided to form a Celtic Nation--surely England & Wales would have the same standing as the Celts, with both nations automatcially in or out?
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Old Nov 29th 2013, 6:10 pm
  #19  
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Default Re: Scottish Independence - Yes or No?

Not necessarily.

Britain is unusual in that the 'state' and country are not the same. Scotland is a country. England is a country. But the larger state is the UK.

It's the UK, not England or Scotland, which is a member of the EU. If Scotland leaves the existing 'state' it becomes a new 'state' of its own and as such needs to be treated as a wholly new, separate country just like Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia when they left Russia/the former Soviet Union.

But the previous 'state' of the UK doesn't disappear. It still remains, just minus a geographical area. When the Soviet Union broke up the Russian 'state' didn't disappear as the main body, Russia, continued to exist and held on to the political privileges granted to the former Soviet Union. The new Russian Federation simply took over the Soviet Union's seat in the UN and its associated privileges including the permanent seat on the security council. The Russians retained the Soviet embassies and diplomatic assets abroad as well as the former Soviet military assets.

It's the same with a Scottish independence. All the political privileges granted to the UK 'state' will remain with the UK. The embassies aren't going to be divided between England or Scotland but will remain owned by the UK. The same with the military and military assets (except for those on Scottish soil). The political and economic treaties the UK holds with other entities (including the EU) remain in effect but Scotland would have to draft its own treaties with those countries.



Originally Posted by Bahtatboy View Post
Logic would surely suggest that if the constituent parts of a member state become separate, then those constituents parts remain / become members. In fact, if The United Kingdom of [England, Wales and Scotland] and Northern Ireland were to be no longer comprised of those four parts, why should the 3/4s remaining have any greater right to automatically stay in the EU than the other 1/4? What if Scotland and NI decided to form a Celtic Nation--surely England & Wales would have the same standing as the Celts, with both nations automatcially in or out?
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Old Nov 30th 2013, 8:02 am
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Default Re: Scottish Independence - Yes or No?

Yep, that makes sense.
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Old Nov 30th 2013, 8:07 am
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Default Re: Scottish Independence - Yes or No?

Just pinched myself, I've learnt something on BE.
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Old Nov 30th 2013, 8:41 am
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Default Re: Scottish Independence - Yes or No?

Happy St. Andrews Day!!

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Old Nov 30th 2013, 8:57 am
  #23  
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Default Re: Scottish Independence - Yes or No?

Comment fro Boris Johnson (Oh i do like him), in today's fail:-

Fighting for the United Kingdom
Margaret Thatcher would now be fighting like a lioness for our union with Scotland, and she would comfortably see off [SNP leader] Alex Salmond, because she would have instinctively identified the heart of the matter: that this isn’t about whether or not the Scots will be £800 per year worse off per head.
This is about the demolition of Britain, about taking the blue background from the union flag, lopping the top off the most successful political union in history.
It would diminish both Scotland and England, and it would be no consolation to her that the loss of Britain, might also mean the end of the British Broadcasting Corporation.
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Old Nov 30th 2013, 9:08 am
  #24  
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Default Re: Scottish Independence - Yes or No?

New flag (?) of the former United Kingdom (or F U K for short)
Attached Thumbnails Scottish Independence - Yes or No?-2_new_flag_uk-copy.jpg  
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Old Nov 30th 2013, 9:16 pm
  #25  
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Default Re: Scottish Independence - Yes or No?

Originally Posted by Ethos83 View Post
Salmond keeps saying that Scotland would automatically be a member of the EU despite that the EU has consistently said Scotland would have to go through the whole rigmarole process of applying for membership
Not forgetting, of course, that Scotland would lose all the opt-outs it currently enjoys thanks to being part of the UK... and yet Salmond seems to think that the EU will just bend over backwards to give Scotland whatever it wants, i.e. automatic membership with all the UK's opt-outs intact.

When you look at it, Salmond doesn't really want true independence, he wants to be able to cherry-pick all the parts that he wants out of the Union. The real kicker is keeping sterling - Salmond even expects the Bank of England to act as lender of last resort. That means basically, English taxpayers would be on the hook to bail them out if things go wrong. And this is all asserted as established fact, there's not even a hint that the 92% of the UK which isn't Scotland even gets to say anything in the matter.

Well, "Westminster" should make it utterly plain - you want to be independent, you get it. So make your own currency, or join the euro. Because you ain't going to turn sterling into a copy of the eurozone, and sure as **** English taxpayers aren't going to be on the hook to bail out your banks again.

Sturgeon's "threat" that Scotland would refuse to assume its share of debt is laughable. Let's see how far you get when the first act of an independent Scotland is an attempt to establish a new currency for a country which has just effectively defaulted on its sovereign debt...

They are either deceiving themselves or, I suspect, just deceiving their voters. I don't think they're stupid, they are aware that it's all complete bollocks.

And they are in for a very nasty wake-up call when they realise Scotland's actual economic and political bargaining power in the world. The idea that the rest of the UK, which is ten times bigger, is going to roll over and give them everything they want is laughable - let alone the EU, which is 100 times bigger. An independent Scotland in the EU would be a minnow shackled to a whale, it would have no power to influence EU policy whatsoever.

And I say all that as someone who really likes Scotland, the West Highlands and Islands especially...
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Old Nov 30th 2013, 9:32 pm
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Default Re: Scottish Independence - Yes or No?

I suspect your ancestors took a similar line with George Washington !
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Old Nov 30th 2013, 9:59 pm
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Default Re: Scottish Independence - Yes or No?

The big difference, of course, being that America wanted true independence. Sever all ties, stand or fall entirely on its own two feet. The SNP doesn't want that.

I don't actually have strong personal feelings either way about Scottish "independence" (I think I'll start putting the word in quotes, because that's more appropriate), but I also don't think that the SNP has come remotely close to building a convincing case in favour of it. It can't provide solid rebuttals to any of the points I made in my previous post, and more tellingly it's refusing to acknowledge that there could possibly be any downsides. The reality, of course, is that there are pros and cons to either a yes or no vote, for both sides.

As was pointed out in the recent debate, Salmond is essentially saying that he wants a divorce, but he also wants to be allowed to keep the joint bank account

Last edited by Eeyore; Nov 30th 2013 at 10:06 pm.
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Old Dec 1st 2013, 12:34 am
  #28  
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Default Re: Scottish Independence - Yes or No?

Originally Posted by Eeyore View Post
As was pointed out in the recent debate, Salmond is essentially saying that he wants a divorce, but he also wants to be allowed to keep the joint bank account
Everyone would support Salmond if he tied Donald Trump to a Wind Turbine blade.
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Old Dec 1st 2013, 8:03 am
  #29  
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Default Re: Scottish Independence - Yes or No?

Your one-liners never fail to amuse me. I do look forward to them...

The American colonists were upset because they were being taxed without representation (that the taxes were to pay for the colonists' defence against the Indians is besides the point here). I don't think Scotland can use the same argument, no?


Originally Posted by scot47 View Post
I suspect your ancestors took a similar line with George Washington !
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Old Dec 1st 2013, 9:37 am
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Default Re: Scottish Independence - Yes or No?

Originally Posted by Millhouse View Post
Once we have fracking sorted we may as well let them go. We only tolerate jockroaches for the oil.
love it !
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