Scaremongering?
 

Long time lurker here. I've just read this:

Fractures in Arab Gulf alliance a greater threat to oil security than Islamic State - Telegraph

Should we be worried?

Re: Scaremongering?
 

No. There are always fractures. It's what desert tribes do best.

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:lol: Very true.

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UAE and Egyptian planes reported to have attacked Qatari funded islamist militants in Libya. bit of a bigger fracture?

BBC News - Libya crisis: US 'caught off-guard' by air strikes

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Nice to see the US condemning outside interference there.

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May I suggest sunshine that you do some brush up on your knowledge of Europe history to find out which people in the world are more fit for that description of yours!!!

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So you're suggesting that "fractious", whether applicable to those elsewhere or not, is not an accurate description of the historic (and possibly current) relationships of the tribes of the Middle East? This at time when Syria, Libya and Iraq are in the grips of essentially tribal driven, and supported, warfare.

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Less than 70 years since the bloodiest conflict in History - main focus was in Europe, not the Middle East. A lot of dead in Asia too !

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in terms of total numbers yes, in terms of bloodiest as a percentage of population probably not.

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Have you ever been outside europe ?

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Don't know many desert tribes in Europe. How about you?

ps your English grammar is deteriorating.

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Or should I say you are exposing your lack of understanding regarding idioms?

One brushes up on, rather than do some brush up on.

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Go easy on the lad, he's only 12. And his mum took away his internet access for the last few days so he's all eager to get those sticky fingers on the keyboard.

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So what's the history between the UAE and Qatar? Why is this kicking off now?

**ignoring the squabbling**;)

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No, what I am saying is that comments such as those should be scrutinized specially when they are made by an European. Historically speaking Europe has always been the most violent content in terms of the number of inter-fighting wars and the scale of these wars. I strongly believe that the only life line that is keeping the integrity of present Europe is wealth, you take that wealth away from Europe and the whole content will go back to its old habit of territorial, ethnic, religious, and what have you wars. But to be fair I have to exempt the Scandinavians lot from this equation.

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Ha ha ha, another display of your breathtaking naiveity.

Replace 'wealth' with 'oil' and you sum up this region perfectly.

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This isn't about Europe though.

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What about the Dutch? they're fairly chilled out.

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This wandered off topic remarkably quickly.

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They're very busy trying to forget they ever held an Empire

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the Friesland Liberation Army can be a nasty bunch with their sharpened cheeses!

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RLD?

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I can see RedShark's point in so far as if the standard of living were a little higher in Palestine/Iraq/Syria and there was as much economic suffering and envy of the west in Pakistan/Afghanistan etc the struggle wouldn't be as great. Who gives a fck about Israeli settlements when we live in our own (albeit Islamic themed) Lakes/Greens etc development in Ramallah/Gaza.

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So what exactly have you got your knickers in a twist about this time? You agree that the definition is accurate with regard to the Middle East, and no one here is denying Europe’s history. The fact Europe has a wealth of meaningful history doesn’t mean we can’t comment on the historical or present situation in the Middle East, indeed perhaps that history makes us better placed to do so.

Are you just demonstrating the usual Middle Eastern small-minded defensiveness, and inability to take criticism of any kind without seeing it as an insult, and throwing your toys out of the pram?

And, really, excluding the Scandinavians? That betrays your lack of knowledge of European history, ever heard of the Vikings? They were a peaceful lot.

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:goodpost:

Not even the wealth he talks of, the civilized, modern, integrated, cooperative unions that have been long established. The mechanisms that were set up to lower any chances of future conflicts.

Western Europe has been through all the tit-for-tat religious (etc) wars in the last X centuries. Some still exist but in the 'newer' countries it seems.

This whole region (Middle East) is still archaic in attitudes and still lets religion rule. The factions of those religions will continue to fight like the Protestant/Catholics did in England under different leaders throughout history (and still do if you look at Ireland/N.Ireland) etc.

I don't really know what I'm talking about sometimes but I definitely know that this region is ****ing light years behind Western Europe in it's maturity and ability to be sensible. Even 'Merica is way behind.

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But the very reason the standard of living is not higher is because of the tribal squabbling and religious sectarianism in the region, despite all allegedly being Arab Muslim brothers. Let us not forget this region is home to many of the greediest people in the world who could, if they wished, solve many of the regions economic and standard of living issues very quickly. Unfortunately the lure of giant yachts, holiday homes in Kensington and owning football clubs is more important – I forget which chapter of the Quran teaches about those things.

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I think the point here is that it was, in real terms, a very short time ago that Europe was a pretty uncivilised and constantly warring mass of loosely bordered countries (sound familiar?). It’s only relatively recently (the past 2 or 3 generations) that there has been significant and consistent improvement. By that token can we really sit in judgement of the Middle East, or should we just sit back let them get on with f**king each other over for another couple of generations and hope they eventually get tired of it and/or wipe each other out?

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I wonder if Red Shark is proud of his Muslim brothers in Rotherham?

Rotherham: failures led to sexual abuse of 1,400 children | Society | The Guardian

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Yeah, maybe you're right, Minnow. Europe is only about wealth. But, once again, your inability to think, appreciate, reflect and consider wider implications leads you to equate wealth to money. The following are some of the examples of Europe’s wealth which are in addition to, and the product of, industrious, collaborative and flexible peoples:

• A secure place to live
• Self-sufficiency in food production and water
• Freedom of religion
• Freedom of speech and thought
• Freedom of sexual orientation
• Rule of law
• Absence of slavery or practices equivalent to slavery
• Democratic institutions
• Universal suffrage
• Universal education
• Equal opportunities, regardless of gender, race or religion
• Absence (or minimal existence) of corruption
• Abundant cultural opportunities accessible to all

And although not everything’s rosy in the garden, there are checks and balances which come into play to try to right the situation.

That is wealth.

Re: Scaremongering?
 

redShark
This message has been deleted by mikewot. Reason: You've been told, very often, not to go wandering off the subject.

Bloody Hell Mikewot.... if you deleted everybody's posts that wander off the subject, this bored would be quieter than it is now!!

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Nah! The fishie goes off into lala land and has had his wrist slapped by Sue for it, so any more burbling and I delete it.

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Yes, agree with your summary.

Yes, we can sit and judge. We do it expertly. What would be more useful is to help, but I fear given previous and current conflicts it will be akin to raking water uphill.

The world is a different place to when Europe 'grew up'. It might take longer / be quicker / be easier / be harder for nations/regions to shed archaic rules etc.

All that aside, who are we to interfere? There is much to be said for leading by example. But if people don't want a model similar to that of Western Europe's and prefer their own way, why should we force our own attitudes and beliefs upon them?

I end up thinking we should just leave it be. But then the shit going on and killing of innocent civilians makes me think it's inhumane to just let idiots kill the general public. Then do we step in? Where does it stop? Where does it restart?

****ing nightmare. Glad I'm not PM.

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One of my friends is adamant that if the Americans, British, French (and any other countries that have a military presence here) pull out permanently including shutting down bases from the gulf and surrounding areas the region will heal itself....

My friend is European and yes, I think he is nuts! I think there would be carnage (although not straight away).

What do you guys think would happen?

Disclaimer:
I am not by any means saying that the presence of these armies is a good thing and they have more than likely made things a lot worse than they potentially would have been if the region had been left alone from the start, but what is done is done and I cannot change the past.

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How far back do you go? The artificial divisions since the end of the Ottoman empire? Or are we simply talking about GW1/2 etc. etc?
If only GW1 period then I think the bloodletting will still have taken place and I doubt there will be any healing for a long long time, if ever.

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That's what I'm saying. You cannot change the past, but if the all the foreign armies left the region tomorrow what would happen in the future?

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:amen:

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Now Pandoras box is open, in particular Sunni versis Shi'ite, they'll kill each other until one tribe is top dog. As Scamps says should we just sit back and let them? I think it is a moral question and I am tempted to say just let them get on with it but my conscience wouldn't allow it.

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Yep. And also I wonder who would invade who first. I mean a tiny, hyper-rich country like Qatar would be like a sitting duck wouldn't it?

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Technically it's none of our business, but that doesn't wash when people are being killed for no reason. Completely ****ed up situation where Joe and Jane Average just suffer.

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Apart from those lines we drew in the sand.