Racism Explained

Old Oct 24th 2012, 6:38 am
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Default Re: Racism Explained

Originally Posted by Scamp View Post
Shall we have a sweepstake on how long you stay this time mate?
Not long.
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Old Oct 24th 2012, 6:52 am
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Default Re: Racism Explained

Originally Posted by mikewot View Post
Not long.
That's what I had....what's the prize?
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Old Oct 24th 2012, 6:54 am
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Default Re: Racism Explained

Originally Posted by Scamp View Post
That's what I had....what's the prize?
I won't be condescending again until after Eid
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Old Oct 24th 2012, 7:01 am
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Default Re: Racism Explained

Originally Posted by mikewot View Post
I won't be condescending again until after Eid
No way, it allows people of my age to act like know-it-alls without fear.

It's a perfect balance.
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Old Oct 24th 2012, 9:45 am
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Default Re: Racism Explained

Originally Posted by Scamp View Post
I hate this post. I normally chuckle or agree with everything you write but I dislike the fact you've apologised for, frankly, nothing.

People will be upset whatever the situation. If you had to apologise to everyone you might have upset yesterday you'd never get any work done.
I'm now in danger of both apologising and explaining (although I think that anyone who says they neither explain nor apologise is arrogant).

Why did I apologise? We all have different thresholds beyond which we take offence. (I like to think that I subscribe to Kipling's view that neither foes nor friends can hurt me, but that's a bit too absolute.) You're right in saying that I could spend my whole life apologising (god knows I probably ought to), but that would be madness because there's always someone out there who will take offence, no matter how well-intentioned or innocuous (at least to you and me) a statement may be (which is what you're saying). But the cartoon clearly had the likelihood of causing offence, and it would be arrogant of me to merely think, "Well, I'm not offended by it, so nobody else should be." Clearly Mentalist was offended, and although his views are open to debate if he makes them public (as are anyone else's), he's part of this community and I'm not a troll. We all have buttons that when pushed upset us--the fact that my buttons are different from both yours and Mentalist's doesn't mean that any of us is right or wrong, just different.

You may well say that being offended by a bit of cyberink, posted by someone Mentalist doesn't particularly like anyway, is oversensitive or whatever. Fine--that's your view, and I respect it. Similarly with Mentalist's view: I don't agree with it (and I think as a contributor to this forum he should explain why he's offended), but in wanting this community to continue there should be some respect shown to everyone's view (except those of the trolls).

And without diminishing my apology nor taking away any of its sincerity, it was as easy to write as the cartoon was to post. Its up to Mentalist alone to decide whether or not it was sincere.
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Old Oct 24th 2012, 11:07 am
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Default Re: Racism Explained

I’m guessing that the public furore in the UK over racism, stemming for the actions of your english footballers, has played a part in starting this debate. Linked to that I see in the news today that the some black players are rumored to be considering starting a Black Professional Footballers Association. By definition, surely this would be an organisation which is racially discriminatory. Should it be that white players had formed such an organisation I’m sure it would very quickly have vilified. It would also be interesting to see if a BPFA would ‘allow’ Asian players to join.

To my mind it seems now that there is a belief that only white people can be racist, and that the law in the UK to an extent supports this. For example if I (as a white man) were to call a black man a ‘black bastard’ that would be classed as a racially motivated insult, if a black man were to call me a ‘white bastard’ I don’t believe a racial motivation would be attached to that. As a white, ginger haired, Scotsman I genuinely don’t think there is anything that anyone could call me linked to my race that I would be offended by (or that I haven’t heard before).
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Old Oct 24th 2012, 11:19 am
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Default Re: Racism Explained

Originally Posted by Bahtatboy View Post
I'm now in danger of both apologising and explaining (although I think that anyone who says they neither explain nor apologise is arrogant).

Why did I apologise? We all have different thresholds beyond which we take offence. (I like to think that I subscribe to Kipling's view that neither foes nor friends can hurt me, but that's a bit too absolute.) You're right in saying that I could spend my whole life apologising (god knows I probably ought to), but that would be madness because there's always someone out there who will take offence, no matter how well-intentioned or innocuous (at least to you and me) a statement may be (which is what you're saying). But the cartoon clearly had the likelihood of causing offence, and it would be arrogant of me to merely think, "Well, I'm not offended by it, so nobody else should be." Clearly Mentalist was offended, and although his views are open to debate if he makes them public (as are anyone else's), he's part of this community and I'm not a troll. We all have buttons that when pushed upset us--the fact that my buttons are different from both yours and Mentalist's doesn't mean that any of us is right or wrong, just different.

You may well say that being offended by a bit of cyberink, posted by someone Mentalist doesn't particularly like anyway, is oversensitive or whatever. Fine--that's your view, and I respect it. Similarly with Mentalist's view: I don't agree with it (and I think as a contributor to this forum he should explain why he's offended), but in wanting this community to continue there should be some respect shown to everyone's view (except those of the trolls).

And without diminishing my apology nor taking away any of its sincerity, it was as easy to write as the cartoon was to post. Its up to Mentalist alone to decide whether or not it was sincere.
I think this is very big of you and I salute you for it. I don't think you intended to offend with the original posting: provoke, perhaps, but not offend.

The issue for me is this: the cartoon sought to trivialise a very big and real issue and thus risked causing legitimate offence. Consider, for example, had the caption and subject been: the holocaust explained. It's a fair comparison historically. Arguably more people were killed during the Atlantic slave trade and savage (and it was) colonial conquest predicated on racism than during the holocaust.

There may have been some validity to the point being made by the cartoon but it certainly does not capture any major truth about racism. White people may not be able to use the language they would prefer any more but neither can decent able-bodied people refer to cripples, retards and spastics without being, deservedly, censured. Specific words carry all sorts of power and refusal to acknowledge that is disingenuous at best, but more probably ignorant or even downright evil.

To equate the real and serious discriminination still experienced by people because of their skin colour with some assinine view of political correctness gone mad is not valid, not funny (to me) but is exactly what this cartoon seeks to do. That's why some of us don't like it.

And to those of you who think white people suffer "racism", then I think you really need to examine your experiences. All people suffer prejudice and discrimination on occasion but that's not the same thing as having the system rigged against you. Statistics on income, employment, housing, education, incarceration, wealth - any social factor you care to name - indicate that having darker skin is generally (not always of course) a disadvantage in society. It is the outcome, often, of past prejudice but it remains real. It is not the only - perhaps no longer even the greatest - source of discrimination, but that's not the point.

I have heard racism succinctly (and helpfully) defined as "prejudice plus power". The occasional insult or denial of preference that white people encounter simply does not compare in any meaningful way to the systematic discrimination that darker skinned people experience in so many different ways all over the world. All of that is encapsulated in the term "racism" which is why trivialising it is offensive to many people, not just those who experience it.

Unfortunately racism is also trivialised by those who seek to find it where it does not exist. Much as I dislike both John Terry and Luis Suarez i don't think either of those cases exemplified racism, more like casual prejudice at worst, like that often on display on this site (and indeed this thread). These cases give cover to the genuine bigots who seek to deny that racism has been and remains a serious problem. Alas there are a few of these on here too.
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Old Oct 24th 2012, 11:30 am
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Default Re: Racism Explained

For starters people of any race that are offended by racism are so because they feel they are being disparaged because of their race. Or historically they have been persecuted because of it or because it is just wrong to single someone out because they are a different race.

White people particularly the British don't get offended by being called a honky because for centuries we have rode roughshod all over the world feeling superior to everyone else.

If black footballers feel they need an association to get themselves extra support or to build awareness because of the inherent racism in football then that is what they should have. White footballers do not need one because they are in the majority and suffer no persecution because of the colour of their skin.

There has been a public furore over racism for years and it has nothing to do with football and everything to do with the fact that most rational human beings have evolved and now realise how wrong it is to marginalise or persecute people because of the colour of their skin (or hair ).

The cartoon which started this thread, for me just highlights an argument used by people in the UK with very little brain who believe the shit they read on the BNP propaganda that comes through the door.
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Old Oct 24th 2012, 11:34 am
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Default Re: Racism Explained

So it would be just as offensive if the two lads in the picture had swapped places?
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Old Oct 24th 2012, 11:38 am
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Default Re: Racism Explained

We should hang BB for this proliferation of hate.
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Old Oct 24th 2012, 11:46 am
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Default Re: Racism Explained

Originally Posted by Miss Anne Thrope View Post
I think this is very big of you and I salute you for it. I don't think you intended to offend with the original posting: provoke, perhaps, but not offend.

The issue for me is this: the cartoon sought to trivialise a very big and real issue and thus risked causing legitimate offence. Consider, for example, had the caption and subject been: the holocaust explained. It's a fair comparison historically. Arguably more people were killed during the Atlantic slave trade and savage (and it was) colonial conquest predicated on racism than during the holocaust.

There may have been some validity to the point being made by the cartoon but it certainly does not capture any major truth about racism. White people may not be able to use the language they would prefer any more but neither can decent able-bodied people refer to cripples, retards and spastics without being, deservedly, censured. Specific words carry all sorts of power and refusal to acknowledge that is disingenuous at best, but more probably ignorant or even downright evil.

To equate the real and serious discriminination still experienced by people because of their skin colour with some assinine view of political correctness gone mad is not valid, not funny (to me) but is exactly what this cartoon seeks to do. That's why some of us don't like it.

And to those of you who think white people suffer "racism", then I think you really need to examine your experiences. All people suffer prejudice and discrimination on occasion but that's not the same thing as having the system rigged against you. Statistics on income, employment, housing, education, incarceration, wealth - any social factor you care to name - indicate that having darker skin is generally (not always of course) a disadvantage in society. It is the outcome, often, of past prejudice but it remains real. It is not the only - perhaps no longer even the greatest - source of discrimination, but that's not the point.

I have heard racism succinctly (and helpfully) defined as "prejudice plus power". The occasional insult or denial of preference that white people encounter simply does not compare in any meaningful way to the systematic discrimination that darker skinned people experience in so many different ways all over the world. All of that is encapsulated in the term "racism" which is why trivialising it is offensive to many people, not just those who experience it.

Unfortunately racism is also trivialised by those who seek to find it where it does not exist. Much as I dislike both John Terry and Luis Suarez i don't think either of those cases exemplified racism, more like casual prejudice at worst, like that often on display on this site (and indeed this thread). These cases give cover to the genuine bigots who seek to deny that racism has been and remains a serious problem. Alas there are a few of these on here too.
This +1 much better written than my reply
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Old Oct 24th 2012, 12:05 pm
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Default Re: Racism Explained

Originally Posted by Miss Anne Thrope View Post
And to those of you who think white people suffer "racism", then I think you really need to examine your experiences.
I suffered racism yesterday on my way back from Pakistan... I was moved to the front of every queue, never searched and given the bulkhead seat - along with the only other white guy.
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Old Oct 24th 2012, 12:06 pm
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Default Re: Racism Explained

Originally Posted by Theseus View Post
For starters people of any race that are offended by racism are so because they feel they are being disparaged because of their race. Or historically they have been persecuted because of it or because it is just wrong to single someone out because they are a different race.
Unfortunately there is also a growing number of white people who get offended on behalf of others, and more likely than not the people who were the butt of the joke (or whatever it is) were not offended in the least. These are more than likely the same people who force shops to use Xmas instead of Christmas and other ridiculous things.

Racism is bad enough in itself without these idiots running around making things worse. In my opinion they should be taken out back and shot in the back of the head.
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Old Oct 24th 2012, 12:06 pm
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Default Re: Racism Explained

Originally Posted by Millhouse View Post
I suffered racism yesterday on my way back from Pakistan... I was moved to the front of every queue, never searched and given the bulkhead seat - along with the only other white guy.
That's shocking. Did you complain?
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Old Oct 24th 2012, 12:11 pm
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Default Re: Racism Explained

Originally Posted by norsk View Post
That's shocking. Did you complain?
yes, they forgot the ice in the apple juice.
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