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Question for the SNPers on here

Question for the SNPers on here

Old May 13th 2015, 11:44 am
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Default Question for the SNPers on here

Had to listen through a SNP supporter's rant the other day.

First it was twenty minutes of blasting Cameron/Tories for austerity. Fully supports the SNP anti-austerity platform. Fair enough. Ideologies are ideologies and everyone's allowed theirs.

Then it was ten minutes of blasting Cameron/Tories for allowing an EU referendum and fully supports the SNP on continuing EU membership and says if England votes to leave, Scotland will demand independence to stay in the EU.

I didn't have the heart or the inclination to get into a debate, partly because I was tired but also because I knew there was no point. He wouldn't listen. People like him never do.

But I have a question for you SNPers out there.

Does anyone not notice that there's a direct contradiction, even hypocrisy, in blasting austerity and using it as one of the reasons for seeking independence, only to hand over much of your newfound powers to the EU, the same political entity that has forced much worse austerity regimes on certain of its member states? I am not only referring to Greece, but Ireland and even Spain, who have all suffered austerity regimes far, far, far worse than anything pushed by Cameron and his boys.

Or is the EU membership something the SNPers support only because it's said so by their political masters, Sturgeon and Salmon? If the fishes had started out on a different course and rejected EU memberships from day 1, the SNPers would be just as against EU membership as they are for it today?
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Old May 13th 2015, 12:27 pm
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Old May 13th 2015, 2:49 pm
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Default Re: Question for the SNPers on here

Can I get butter on that popcorn, please?
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Old May 13th 2015, 5:04 pm
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Default Re: Question for the SNPers on here

There was a substantial anti-EU wing within the SNP some years ago. It has gone quiet. It may surprise you oh DXCB to hear that the SNP is not a monolithic party with orders being issued from Party HQ to the minions. That is how they do it in Labour !

We actually debate issues and ideas - unlike others who are obsessed with "celebrities" and sound bites.

Last edited by scot47; May 13th 2015 at 5:06 pm.
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Old May 13th 2015, 5:32 pm
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Default Re: Question for the SNPers on here

To quote you:

"It has gone quiet."

I think that tells you everything you need to know about the SNP.

Originally Posted by scot47 View Post
There was a substantial anti-EU wing within the SNP some years ago. It has gone quiet. It may surprise you oh DXCB to hear that the SNP is not a monolithic party with orders being issued from Party HQ to the minions. That is how they do it in Labour !

We actually debate issues and ideas - unlike others who are obsessed with "celebrities" and sound bites.
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Old May 13th 2015, 6:14 pm
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Default Re: Question for the SNPers on here

Spent a lot of time active in Scottish politics ? Perhaps in the Bearsden and Milngavie Unionist Club ?
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Old May 14th 2015, 4:36 am
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Default Re: Question for the SNPers on here

It may surprise you to hear but perhaps you've missed the massive swing vote that encapsulated both left and right leaning scots but the SNP is not one wholly homogeneous party as portrayed by the media and nor certainly are its voters or members.

To assume it is flys in the face of the most recent vote and its sheer numbers and the implication of those numbers.

Many (I suspect the majority) like myself see the SNP as a means to an end and I'd hazard a guess that if not at the 1st scottish general election then by the 2nd the SNP will more or less cease to exist as its voters return to voting for other parties.


I will vote SNP as a vote in scotlands best interests until such time as I can vote in a wholly independent scottish general election. At that time I'm more likely to vote scottish conservative than anything else but it will depend entirely on who is standing, how the parties set themselves up and so on.

The SNP used to be a single issue party with a single aim and rightly so as as soon as they gain their main aim they will immediately arrange for a general election.

With the coming of a devolved parliament and the need for policies beyond the core aim they evolved, personally I think they have some great policies and aims and I think they have some shit ones. It matters not as there is no political party in the UK or scotland they reflects all my views anyway. With this expanded policy range and a chance at actually governing its base has grown steadily and they have done a pretty decent job in Scotland.

With the referendum hype they gained a further perceived 10% or so of support but that was inaccurately and incorrectly portrayed as direct snp support. Plenty of yes voters were labour voters for example.

With this general election though we have seen a ridiculous swing to the SNP, over 30% in some places, which is unheard of in British politics. This swing must therefore included labour, conservative and green supporters as well as the minor parties. The SNP is aware that they gained votes from people who are not core snp voters and they are not naive enough to believe that these people have become snp core voters of late.

This misconception that so many people have suddenly become the rabid nationalists as portrayed by the media and yourself above is incorrect, highly unlikely, frankly ridiculous and unless addressed will actually deepen the support for the SNP and further drive a wedge through the union.

This was a clear protest vote against the scottish Tories and labour just as much as it was a vote for the SNP. A great deal of the recent snp vote seeks further powers and better representation but not necessarily another independence referendum.

Much as this core issue is misunderstood so are the other issues of snp policies, we (snp voters) do not all bow down at the alter of the SNP and most of us do not agree with 100% of snp policies but then which party if any can say their voters agree with everything 100%?

So there are many differing views within the voters and many differing opinions on what would be the right course to take.

We will see what happens in the coming months and see what the Scottish Tory and Labour Party can do to resurrect themselves before the Scottish election, my fear is they do nothing and the SNP sweep that election as well. If they do the union is dead and there will be no viable opposition to the SNP in the general election that would follow.

As for Europe it may surprise you as the media ignores this point completely.

People in Scotland have no problem with Europe, none.
We have had a better relationship with Europe than england for centuries, our agricultural industry does quite well under Europe as do all the Highlands and Islands as a whole.

We don't see Europe as some great enemy and something to shun at every turn.

As for forced austerity by Europe, apart from one ill conceived comment during the referendum there is little actual evidence to suggest that scotland would be forced to undertake extreme austerity measures by Europe. In fact it's quite unlikely as we'd have one of europes best economies.

Scotland isn't the poor wee relation to the north dependent on handouts. In 27 of the last 30 years scotland has contributed more to the UK tax receipts than it has received back. The evidence points to scotland being no worse off to only a little worse off were it to become independent . As such why would eu mandated austerity even be an issue.

The SNP does not equal Scotland and there is no guarantee that the SNP would lead an independent Scotland for more than the briefest of interim periods.

This is pretty basic stuff, it's no secret and yet is ignored by so many.

Is it really any wonder that the tide has changed and scottish politics has undergone a total revolution
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Old May 14th 2015, 6:46 am
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Default Re: Question for the SNPers on here

I see what you're saying, but you're also simplifying the matter greatly, most likely because you have your own particular vision and you're trimming out what doesn't fit.

You seem to be ignoring that the SNP has moved beyond being a single issue party. It fully endorsed a solid leftist platform in the past election and even in the referendum. Sturgeon positioned herself as the opposition of Cameron on just about every issue. Why else do you think there was all this talk of an SNP-Labour alliance? The coverage in the media with interviews with the SNP leadership and voters all point in one direction: the growth in support for the SNP was strongly encouraged by the SNP taking a leftist stance.

The huge popularity rise of the SNP over the last few years doubtlessly has to do with the nationalist vision, perpetuated by the SNP, of Scotland becoming a quasi-Scandinavian welfare state utopia. It's something I actually understand quite well and why it's so attractive to many people, particularly the former Labour voters from Glasgow and environs. They didn't move strongly to the SNP just because of the prospect of independence, but because the SNP convinced that an independent Scotland would deliver a socially progressive (leftist high tax high spending) society with a strong welfare state etc cetera. If the SNP does achieve independence for Scotland, do you really think the party would wither away? Fat chance. It'd just be the replacement of the old Labour party and once again would utterly dominate Scottish politics in the new state.

So, while I don't dispute the existence of right wing SNPers, they are in a distinct minority. As for the EU, you once again ignored the irony that for a country so strongly opposed to austerity, they seem quite happy to allow much worse austerity occur elsewhere in the EU. Talk about fellowship.... and perhaps Scotland didn't "need" austerity because London bailed out the major banks.

By the way, your comment about the economics isn't quite on mark. Scotland certainly isn't poor, but the differential you talk of was based on oil revenues. Given the current drop in oil price there's something like an eight billion pound funding gap between what Scotland collects in taxes and spends.

Rather ironically, Sturgeon et al are opposed to scrapping the Barnett formula even in exchange to full fiscal independence….
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Old May 14th 2015, 7:10 am
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Default Re: Question for the SNPers on here

So you didn't read half of what I wrote then.

Regarding deficit I believe the UK national annual deficit is around 100 Billion a year.

Last edited by shiva; May 14th 2015 at 7:13 am.
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Old May 14th 2015, 8:13 am
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Default Re: Question for the SNPers on here

Originally Posted by shiva View Post
It may surprise you to hear but perhaps you've missed the massive swing vote that encapsulated both left and right leaning scots but the SNP is not one wholly homogeneous party as portrayed by the media and nor certainly are its voters or members.

To assume it is flys in the face of the most recent vote and its sheer numbers and the implication of those numbers.

Many (I suspect the majority) like myself see the SNP as a means to an end and I'd hazard a guess that if not at the 1st scottish general election then by the 2nd the SNP will more or less cease to exist as its voters return to voting for other parties.


I will vote SNP as a vote in scotlands best interests until such time as I can vote in a wholly independent scottish general election. At that time I'm more likely to vote scottish conservative than anything else but it will depend entirely on who is standing, how the parties set themselves up and so on.

The SNP used to be a single issue party with a single aim and rightly so as as soon as they gain their main aim they will immediately arrange for a general election.

With the coming of a devolved parliament and the need for policies beyond the core aim they evolved, personally I think they have some great policies and aims and I think they have some shit ones. It matters not as there is no political party in the UK or scotland they reflects all my views anyway. With this expanded policy range and a chance at actually governing its base has grown steadily and they have done a pretty decent job in Scotland.

With the referendum hype they gained a further perceived 10% or so of support but that was inaccurately and incorrectly portrayed as direct snp support. Plenty of yes voters were labour voters for example.

With this general election though we have seen a ridiculous swing to the SNP, over 30% in some places, which is unheard of in British politics. This swing must therefore included labour, conservative and green supporters as well as the minor parties. The SNP is aware that they gained votes from people who are not core snp voters and they are not naive enough to believe that these people have become snp core voters of late.

This misconception that so many people have suddenly become the rabid nationalists as portrayed by the media and yourself above is incorrect, highly unlikely, frankly ridiculous and unless addressed will actually deepen the support for the SNP and further drive a wedge through the union.

This was a clear protest vote against the scottish Tories and labour just as much as it was a vote for the SNP. A great deal of the recent snp vote seeks further powers and better representation but not necessarily another independence referendum.

Much as this core issue is misunderstood so are the other issues of snp policies, we (snp voters) do not all bow down at the alter of the SNP and most of us do not agree with 100% of snp policies but then which party if any can say their voters agree with everything 100%?

So there are many differing views within the voters and many differing opinions on what would be the right course to take.

We will see what happens in the coming months and see what the Scottish Tory and Labour Party can do to resurrect themselves before the Scottish election, my fear is they do nothing and the SNP sweep that election as well. If they do the union is dead and there will be no viable opposition to the SNP in the general election that would follow.

As for Europe it may surprise you as the media ignores this point completely.

People in Scotland have no problem with Europe, none.
We have had a better relationship with Europe than england for centuries, our agricultural industry does quite well under Europe as do all the Highlands and Islands as a whole.

We don't see Europe as some great enemy and something to shun at every turn.

As for forced austerity by Europe, apart from one ill conceived comment during the referendum there is little actual evidence to suggest that scotland would be forced to undertake extreme austerity measures by Europe. In fact it's quite unlikely as we'd have one of europes best economies.

Scotland isn't the poor wee relation to the north dependent on handouts. In 27 of the last 30 years scotland has contributed more to the UK tax receipts than it has received back. The evidence points to scotland being no worse off to only a little worse off were it to become independent . As such why would eu mandated austerity even be an issue.

The SNP does not equal Scotland and there is no guarantee that the SNP would lead an independent Scotland for more than the briefest of interim periods.

This is pretty basic stuff, it's no secret and yet is ignored by so many.

Is it really any wonder that the tide has changed and scottish politics has undergone a total revolution
^^^ This ^^^..

And this, I believe, is why Westmonster will never fully understand what is happening in Scotland.. They still perceive politics as being party driven. By that, I mean if you vote for X, you must agree with everything they have in their manifesto..

Politics in Scotland has moved on.

We like to think its grown up...
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Old May 14th 2015, 9:08 am
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Default Re: Question for the SNPers on here

Originally Posted by TGFKASE View Post
Politics in Scotland has moved on.

...
...to taking selfies in parliament
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Old May 14th 2015, 9:22 am
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Default Re: Question for the SNPers on here

Originally Posted by Scamp View Post
...to taking selfies in parliament
..and a chip buttie on the patio.. Could have been worse, could have been a deep-fried Mars bar..
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Old May 14th 2015, 9:25 am
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Default Re: Question for the SNPers on here

Originally Posted by Scamp View Post
...to taking selfies in parliament
Selfies, well yes, there is that!

However even the fact there are people taking selfies demonstrates the level of change. Some fairly normal people have just been given the reins of power, including some very young and very inexperienced people and even some who take selfies.

Can they do a worse job than the cadre of professional politicians who have so dominated the last 30 years?

Can they do a better job precisely because they are normal people who have led the same sort of lives that their constituency members live?

Only time will tell but I'm actually quite glad to see a load of new inexperienced and yet to be utterly corrupted people enter the doors of Westminster.

The fact they are from the SNP makes me all the happier but I actually like their sense of bewilderment and innocence. I doubt that it will last long though and I'm certain more than one or two will sup from the cup of power and go as bat shit crazy as the rest of the MPs

Last edited by shiva; May 14th 2015 at 9:30 am.
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Old May 14th 2015, 9:37 am
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Default Re: Question for the SNPers on here

Originally Posted by TGFKASE View Post
..and a chip buttie on the patio.. Could have been worse, could have been a deep-fried Mars bar..


Originally Posted by shiva View Post
Selfies, well yes, there is that!

However even the fact there are people taking selfies demonstrates the level of change. Some fairly normal people have just been given the reins of power, including some very young and very inexperienced people and even some who take selfies.

Can they do a worse job than the cadre of professional politicians who have so dominated the last 30 years?

Can they do a better job precisely because they are normal people who have led the same sort of lives that their constituency members live?

Only time will tell but I'm actually quite glad to see a load of new inexperienced and yet to be utterly corrupted people enter the doors of Westminster.

The fact they are from the SNP makes me all the happier but I actually like their sense of bewilderment and innocence. I doubt that it will last long though and I'm certain more than one or two will sup from the cup of power and go as bat shit crazy as the rest of the MPs
One of them is 20 years old or something! Fair play. Why the **** not eh.

I'm all for a bit of experience and I wouldn't want complete novices / newbies to lead the government but to have a voice, regardless of where from, of a completely different perspective to the silver spooned Eton bunch is quite nice.
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Old May 14th 2015, 9:42 am
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Default Re: Question for the SNPers on here

Originally Posted by Scamp View Post




One of them is 20 years old or something! Fair play. Why the **** not eh.

I'm all for a bit of experience and I wouldn't want complete novices / newbies to lead the government but to have a voice, regardless of where from, of a completely different perspective to the silver spooned Eton bunch is quite nice.
exactly.

I'm quite a snob at heart but I cant help but think maybe its time for the conventions and expectations of parliament to die out. i'd keep the no selfie convention though

This self appointed role of our betters ruling us is a bit outdated now and people deciding policy that affects millions who have no idea how the millions live is past its time.

a bit more decorum wouldn't hurt though. would it?
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