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Re: know anyone leaving?
Originally Posted by littlejimmy
(Post 12442335)
To start (get my excuses in), I'd had a few glasses of red wine by then so probably don't remember it that well. In a nutshell it was about the chance it could bring to reset the British economy into a manufacturing-based, competitive economy and stopping the welfare culture trap that has been around since the 1980s, i.e. training up a new efficient, British workforce. It would take time, of course. It was a fresh angle on it which made me think, like I said, not just the usual "you lost, get over it, leave at any cost, spitfires over the Channel, jam and spam and let them eat cake!" nonsense.
I've always maintained there are some good progressive/left-wing reasons for leaving the EU. Problem for me is that some of the people in charge (Bojo and JRM) of it aren't doing it for those reasons. Quite the opposite. They want to make the UK even more neo-liberal and sell everything that hasn't been privatised off to Donald Trump, if they get their way. And they're fighting against other Tories who want a softer Brexit, and we're still not really clear what the plan is. I wonder what the hell Corbyn et al are up to. Is he playing a long game and counting on picking up the pieces when the Tories mess it up? As for Bojo's speech yesterday. Same old, same old. Roll out the biggest charlatan of all to try and unite people, talking about betrayal. Yeah, right. My point was that with the FOM from somewhat less economically developed states, there was a whole section of British society, who can probably only ever aspire to grill order chef at McDs, and will not work as they get more from the social than they would from the minimum hours, minimum wage contracts that are on offer. Don't get me wrong, this isn't an anti foreigner stance, as I believe the UK would crumble without all of the highly educated professionals that EU and elsewhere provides. If there were no super-low expectation people in UK (EU and others) then the working conditions of hours and pay would naturally rise and we may be able to coax some of the less educated away from their playstation and back to contributing to the economy. OK, bring on the racist accusations!!! |
Re: know anyone leaving?
Originally Posted by TheShed
(Post 12442512)
Close Jimmy, but not quite. Yes, Scamp, it was me.
My point was that with the FOM from somewhat less economically developed states, there was a whole section of British society, who can probably only ever aspire to grill order chef at McDs, and will not work as they get more from the social than they would from the minimum hours, minimum wage contracts that are on offer. Don't get me wrong, this isn't an anti foreigner stance, as I believe the UK would crumble without all of the highly educated professionals that EU and elsewhere provides. If there were no super-low expectation people in UK (EU and others) then the working conditions of hours and pay would naturally rise and we may be able to coax some of the less educated away from their playstation and back to contributing to the economy. OK, bring on the racist accusations!!! Post Brexit you might get a re-balancing of the economy (which I think is much needed and long over due) from services/ finance to manufacturing, but that will probably take a generation to achieve, and who knows if that will be a good thing or not. We might see a decline in London and growth in the midlands, but I doubt a change in net-employment / net-wealth will really occur. |
Re: know anyone leaving?
Originally Posted by Millhouse
(Post 12442521)
What you are proposing is a reform of the social welfare system and a re-balancing of the distribution of wealth, not an exit from the EU.
Post Brexit you might get a re-balancing of the economy (which I think is much needed and long over due) from services/ finance to manufacturing, but that will probably take a generation to achieve, and who knows if that will be a good thing or not. We might see a decline in London and growth in the midlands, but I doubt a change in net-employment / net-wealth will really occur. I'm still pro-brexit for other reasons mainly around the ridiculous bureaucracy and hopelessly bloated governance that make all of EU, nut just UK uncompetitive on a global scale. |
Re: know anyone leaving?
I'm sure I'll be sorry to wade back into these shark infested waters that is the Brexit debate.
What I find intriguing among many Remainers is their resistance to realising how the EU has not benefited, and even failed, large segments of the British population. They may talk of the economic benefits of the single market/customs union. They may talk of the benefits of "European solidarity" and the neoliberal beliefs in greater integration as the best route for the future. There are merits to their arguments but in the same arguments they demonstrate ignorance in how those are actually quite selfish arguments. The sanctity of the national economy is only because the current economic system benefits them, especially if you work in finance or services and trade with the continentals. The sanctity of European solidarity is only because it benefits them because they have the means and opportunities to work in the other EU countries. But a typical working class British man or woman who doesn't work for a London bank, what's the benefit of the single market? They don't feel it or see it. But they do see the hordes of Eastern Europeans flocking to the UK and see that as undercutting their economic position, and there is truth to that. The British plumber or bricklayer can't move to Poland because the economic fundamentals don't support that. Yet the Polish bricklayer can move to Britain. At the same time the British banker isn't competing with Polish bankers. And the educated professional classes were increasingly developing greater solidarity and loyalty with their peers in the EU over their own countrymen, seeing more in common with similar people in Germany or France versus much of their own country's population. And, of course, the massive immigration has had other implications ranging from rising housing costs/housing shortage and overcrowded social services and schools and hospitals, all which are keenly felt by the less affluent in the UK. The better off are more isolated from that reality, they aren't living next door to a group of Eastern Europeans sharing a house and in that paying higher rent, making it more difficult for their own children to get their own place. Ultimately, one of the side effects of the great EU project is that it further entrenched the British populace into haves and have-nots, neoliberal London versus the rest of England, the people who can take advantage of the many benefits of the EU versus those who cannot, and the more wedges were introduced, the more fragmented the UK was starting to feel. This is on top of quite a few other issues as well. The shock of leaving the EU will likely force the UK to make some clear decisions about the future and what it wants to be and to seriously address critical flaws both in society and culture. And I think it will be very good for the long run. |
Re: know anyone leaving?
Originally Posted by TheShed
(Post 12442512)
Close Jimmy, but not quite. Yes, Scamp, it was me.
My point was that with the FOM from somewhat less economically developed states, there was a whole section of British society, who can probably only ever aspire to grill order chef at McDs, and will not work as they get more from the social than they would from the minimum hours, minimum wage contracts that are on offer. Don't get me wrong, this isn't an anti foreigner stance, as I believe the UK would crumble without all of the highly educated professionals that EU and elsewhere provides. If there were no super-low expectation people in UK (EU and others) then the working conditions of hours and pay would naturally rise and we may be able to coax some of the less educated away from their playstation and back to contributing to the economy. OK, bring on the racist accusations!!! As all the arguments are showing here, it's not a black and white argument. There are so many levels and complexities which very few people understand. That's why it should never have gone to a referendum. But we did, and we are where we are. The government have got to do what they can to make a good job of it. Not an enviable task. I seriously hope the division can be healed and something good comes out of it, and if it does, I'll hold my hands up and admit my doubts were wrong. If it goes to shit, I won't be gloating, I'll be extremely sad about it. Have a good weekend, everyone. At least this has stayed civil. :eek::thumbsup: |
Re: know anyone leaving?
Originally Posted by Norm_uk
(Post 12444038)
Why would middle class champagne socialist-globalists give a hoot about the great unwashed, especially the "white van man" who has seen his (or indeed her) wages stagnate as people come in to work with much lower remuneration expectations? That's fantastic for a lot of medium and large business owners....cheap labour means more profits.
Being able to visit Provence and Tuscany without showing your passport is also far more important than than this, or the the trade deficit with the EU, or the growing trade the UK has outside the EU. And it's definitely far more important to feel-good tolerance credentials to be able say you have hired foreigners to repave the driveway (brown ones especially but wild eastern europeans will also do to talk about at dinner parties), or as a nanny than someone too working class. (at the same time these people do of course criticise people who don't speak with working class regional accents - after all, what could be more of a threat than the great unwashed becoming educated and well spoken? That would create social mobility...rather than dependency). The Aristocracy could never have dreamed of such control over the people while convincing many of them they have their best interests at heart. This is an old attitude that Orwell pointed out in The Road To Wigan Pier - the middle class Left Wing's hate of their own people...the ones they claim to care about but despise because of their accents, table manners and dreadful patriotism...why many of them are even nationalist and think the country should look after it's own first. How ghastly! N. |
Re: know anyone leaving?
Originally Posted by Bahtatboy
(Post 12444095)
That is, perhaps, the only argument that holds good for Leaving.
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Re: know anyone leaving?
Good post Mr S. Hed.
I prefer red wine to champagne anyway. |
Re: know anyone leaving?
Originally Posted by littlejimmy
(Post 12444278)
Good post Mr S. Hed.
I prefer red wine to champagne anyway. |
Re: know anyone leaving?
Me or Jimmy?
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Re: know anyone leaving?
Originally Posted by Arnold S
(Post 12442388)
Nearly half of benefit spending is on the elderly and pensions so unless leaving the EU allows us to implement some kind of strategy based on Logan's Run I'm not sure where this would be a benefit. :)
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Re: know anyone leaving?
Originally Posted by TheShed
(Post 12442528)
Thanks Milly. Yes, I thanked you've explained it more succinctly than me, but I do think that some of our Youf would take some of these low paying jobs if they paid just a bit better. If you take away (or at least limit) the availability of low cost labour from other markets, it could shift the balance a bit.
I'm still pro-brexit for other reasons mainly around the ridiculous bureaucracy and hopelessly bloated governance that make all of EU, nut just UK uncompetitive on a global scale. |
Re: know anyone leaving?
Britain should abolish income tax and increase VAT. Solves all problems.
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Re: know anyone leaving?
Originally Posted by Norm_uk
(Post 12444038)
Why would middle class champagne socialist-globalists give a hoot about the great unwashed
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Re: know anyone leaving?
Originally Posted by Arnold S
(Post 12444729)
Why would you care that other people don't care when from what I've read, you don't care?
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