Defence of Islam and Locals
 

There seems to be a lot of posters (mostly newish) who are keen to jump to the defence and counter attack what they percieve as the unjust attacks on islam and locals/arabs on the bored these days.

out of interest how many of you jumping to the defence are NOT muslim or arab and have been in the region longer than 3 years?

I'm discounting muslims becasue you will obviously jump to defend you fantasy belief system, arabs becasue its a cultural defence and newbies because you havent yet passed any honeymoon period.

I actually am curious as to how many people can be non religious, non arab and manage to maintain either a neutral or positive view towards islam and the locals/culture?

i've been here on and off since the 70's and personally feel the a)islam has in general become a less tolerant and more extreme religion in the region over that time and b) that the locals have most definitely changed with the younger two generations mostly being shits.

I will add a caveat that if you go into the rural areas the above issues disappear almost as if you are reverting in time....curious

Re: Defence of Islam and Locals
 

I still find Islam a very beautiful, if often curious, religion - and find it a crying shame when people twist it to justify blowing people up.

I've also met some of the warmest and kindest people here.

The coming together of local desert culture, Islam and the modern world, however, has not served this part of the world very well. The problems are terrifying in their proportion and the lack of action horribly frustrating.

As I have said before, I think - I care for the future of Saudi Arabia, messed up as it is. I cannot summon the same emotional investment for the UAE.

Re: Defence of Islam and Locals
 

I don't count myself as one of those newbies you're talking about, but from a personal perspective, I'm a strong believer in the principle that if you choose to move somewhere, you live by the local rules and not try and bring those of your original country with you.

In the UK, this would be applied to those who seek to change the system: i.e. those that want to bring in Shari'ah law. I haven't issue with you if you want to live by those laws, but don't expect to come to a prosperous country – one which you could argue is prosperous precisely because it doesn't have Shari'ah law – and try and impose the cultural norms of your former home.

In exactly the same way, I haven't come to the UAE and expected them to bend to the whims and fancies of those from a Western cultural background. (Though I know they do – but that was a decision they'd made long before I even had ever thought about coming here).

That said, I am in my honeymoon period. I haven't had a chance to get out and explore because of the heat and humidity and I haven't run into some more of the less obvious nuances of the culture.

Re: Defence of Islam and Locals
 

If I do speak out, it's when I think people are making crass generalisations of the kind published in Daily Mail stories. Whatever your view on their religion (or any belief system) and culture, stoking up ill-informed anti-Islam feeling really isn't productive. Detached and objective criticism is fine, of course. Nothing should be above criticism or comment.

Yes, I'm off to knit some tofu and hug a tree now.

Re: Defence of Islam and Locals
 

I'm not bothered by Islam. All religions have their fanatics, including Christianity and Judaism (although I'm aware Christianity doesn't suffer from the problem of fundamentalist terrorists that Islam unfortunately does).

Religion is religion, it can be a wonderful cultural force and has brought wonderful sense of being and cultural identification to millions of people. Every day I go out in DXB and I see happy Muslim families and happy Christian families and happy Hindu families probably even a handful of happy Jewish families. There's not a whole lot to separate the cultural values of most people in DXB. They just want to live life as happily and peaceful as possible.

But - while the extreme fundamentalists do cause problems, moreso for the local rulers and ordinary people than they do for Westerners, the other major problem in the region is the corruption of values as a result of the sudden infusion of extreme wealth. My antipathy towards Emiratis has nothing to do with Islam, it has everything to do with the extreme sense of entitlement and the corrupting effect of luxury that has sprung up among the locals, especially the younger generation. Some of the people I grew up with and went to school with were no different, and guess what, I didn't like them either.

I'm absolutely confident that the elders are aware of the problem on their hands but what's infuriating is that they refuse to publically acknowledge it. The tribal mentality that may have worked when Emiratis and Gulf Arabs were impoverished tribes in a harsh world is still carrying over to the modern day with disastrous consequences - the acceptance and applying of double standards in the legal system and social conduct is a perfect example. When two arseholes do stupid stunts on Sheikh Zayed and get off with a light slap and a 1,000 AED fine it tells you there's a deep seated flaw that's erupted inside the Emirati society, and God knows what the long term consequences are going to be.

But I won't be around to find out, inshallah.

Re: Defence of Islam and Locals
 

I think, every single one, who is critical about this culture and society is as critical about his own. That's how we are raised and brought up. We are able to put question marks behind things and we are even encouraged to do so. Because only a free society, where a constant open dialogue is allowed can develop and make the place a better one. If no criticism is allowed, everything comes to a standstill.
I don't care too much about religion. If someone feels better praying to whatever he believes in, fine with me, as long as they don't try to impose it on me.

Re: Defence of Islam and Locals
 

Shiva, you raise an interesting point.

Culturally it is hard to adapt in the UAE and that is due to the divide, there is critisism where it warrants but the abuse and downright ignorance of some is beyond belief, the other thread for example about "i saw something interesting today" how many times have we witnessed a expat woman in the UAE without manners, being rude to staff, their kids abusing the maid, and yet it is never raised only when a UAE nataional child who obviously has manners is berated on a forum for the hard work that the child parents have put in !!!!

Not all UAE nationals are the stereotype that people have an image of !!

I wish really there was a meeting point where this could be portrayed and just maybe some of the negative views of people who have little or no understanding could be quashed.

Re: Defence of Islam and Locals
 

If I didn't like it here, I wouldn't be here. I did nearly jack it all in as for a while it didn't feel right. Now I like it - I have no idea when I will leave.

I'm not saying it is perfect by any stretch, but nor is the UK. I am more than happy to (and in fact want to) be around different cultures.

I guess I actually enjoy getting in a queue that is 10 wide and one deep, or getting beeped when filling the car with petrol, or (as I did the other day) picking up the Pakistani camel farmer and giving him a lift home, some apple juice and some cold water. It does of course cut both ways - I once asked an Emiriti family for some food for my child as we were stuck without access to food and he was hungry, they (of course) obliged. Could I have done that in the UK? Probably not.

It's all part of life here.

Now, if only we could find a way to get rid of the Lebos... :D

Re: Defence of Islam and Locals
 

Oh yes they do-They are always blowing up abortion clinics and shooting doctors


Christianity has in become a less tolerant and more extreme in that time as well..My mom and grandma went to church every sunday back in the 70's and they were just good people, good people that went out of their way to find people to help and they rarely ever mentioned religion..Christians in America nowadays are just over the top proselytising, backwards hate mongers- holy warriors who won't be happy until just about every other religion is wiped off the face of the earth..They love war?

Re: Defence of Islam and Locals
 

let me rephrase that question:

Apart from muzzies, who are obviously too stupid to think objectively about their lives, how many people think this place is civilised? Newbies need not answer as you haven't seen what this place is really like.

Leading Questions 101.

Re: Defence of Islam and Locals
 

I agree ..those muslims killing nearly 3000 people in NY did piss them off

and in london it was only 56 deaths ... and the brits got irritated over just that few ..

Re: Defence of Islam and Locals
 

I don't know if you're joking or not but either way you gotta agree that there was a huge overreaction to 911 here. I'm mean 45,000 people die everyday in America and were gonna completely change our way of life forever because an extra 3000 go in one day?

Re: Defence of Islam and Locals
 

I never Joke ... ..but I would shoot you for fun ....

Re: Defence of Islam and Locals
 

Seriously? I know you arent comparing deaths from natural causes, accidents, homicide etc etc...to 9/11..

A huge over reaction...maybe...but what would you have done? sat down and had a chit chat with Osama over a nice cup of herbal tea?

Would it have gone somthing like this..."so Mr Bin Laden, what can we do as Westerners to ensure you don't kill 3000 more of us in one fell swoop, because it is our fault after all"..

Come on now...no more silly comparisons.

Re: Defence of Islam and Locals
 

A teeny bit of a sweeping generalization, dont you think...

Re: Defence of Islam and Locals
 

All we need to do is stop controlling the wealth, resources and politics of weaker countries, and stop supporting the terrorist state of Israel- and "terrorism" (as if it's a big problem here anyway) will end overnight...

It's our empire

Re: Defence of Islam and Locals
 

Who is we?

I'm not rising to the rest of it..but just so I'm clear, if "we" stop supporting Israel...terrorism will end?

Go read a history book..

Re: Defence of Islam and Locals
 

Don't take my word on it, take Bin Ladin's- he put out a bunch of videos explaining why he did it and everyone of them sites our blind support of Israel as the main reason...We should have never created Israel, but if we had to we should have put it out on a island somewhere, not right there.

Re: Defence of Islam and Locals
 

I wouldnt take that murdering little feckers word on anything..i will leave that to you..

So...we do what he wants...is that your suggestion?

Who or what comes next?

I can think of all sorts of countries that should be floated out into the middle if the ocean...

"We" didn't create Israel...The people of Israel did...and not all Israelis are Jewish...just to be clear..

Re: Defence of Islam and Locals
 

Only if doing what he wants is the right thing to do anyway

Re: Defence of Islam and Locals
 

Ah...Im gonna have to respectfully disagree with you here.


Now be quiet

Re: Defence of Islam and Locals
 

I think your being a bit of a troll to be honest...

Its all about personal opinions...and thats fine...but you lining up with a mass murdering terrorist is a bit daft dont you think..

I am also aware that "one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter"..

But it would be quite a stretch to call Bin Laden a freedom fighter...

Re: Defence of Islam and Locals
 

Disagree all you want...and im well aware Wiki isnt the be all and end all...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Israel

Re: Defence of Islam and Locals
 

I'm not lining up with him, but you gotta empathize with your enemy, wether it's the car salesman trying to sell you a car or Osama Bin Ladin..

I was one of many investors in this documentary BTW

Re: Defence of Islam and Locals
 

Is a car salesman your enemy...? opponent maybe..

Your being a bit daft with your comparisons here..

Re: Defence of Islam and Locals
 

Have you ever asked yourself why? Western aggression and arrogance in the ME dates back to the crusades (probably earlier but I am no history buff) and continues to this day. We may judge ourselves by our intent, however, others judge us by our actions.... and we have nothing to be proud of there. Note, although moving to AD now I have lived and worked in several ME countries over the years.

Re: Defence of Islam and Locals
 

oh no George Galloway....
endign support for israel would take the wind out of terrorists' sails, but not stop them.

They would find other ways and reasons to spread ignorance and brutality all over the world.

They would have to find another evil enemy in order to keep the masses under the yoke of a totalitarian martial-law state.

Millions (OK maybe just a few thousand) will wonder why the infidels need to be conquered, rather than reasoned with and convinced. These voices will be silenced.

I've never been accused of being an optimist.

Re: Defence of Islam and Locals
 

The Arabs did a fairly good job nearly conquering Europe....

Islam had European territories under its control far longer than the Crusaders ever managed, who were completely and utterly defeated at the end of the day. The Turks were at the gates of Vienna in the late 17th century. Istanbul has been an Islamic city for five hundred years. It was a Christian city for a thousand years before that. Berber pirates from North Africa terrorised European sea traders in the Mediterranean into the early 19th century.

History isn't one-sided here.

Re: Defence of Islam and Locals
 

Couldn't agree more.... so what do we do now...... tolerance or scorn?

Re: Defence of Islam and Locals
 

Agree with you wholeheartedly.

Re: Defence of Islam and Locals
 

And there we have the other side of the coin. Some troll saying all American Christians are nutters like that guy Phelps. Not very helpful.

I'm surprised Norm hasn't been on this thread yet...:)

Re: Defence of Islam and Locals
 

I blame the Swedes. Abba and their aluminum extremist socialistic dogmas. Can ANYONE defend Abba?

U

Re: Defence of Islam and Locals
 

Foiled again.

Re: Defence of Islam and Locals
 

once again who rattled your cage but yes my point is who here who is relatively neutral with experience has managed to maintain a neutral or even positive view.
perfectly valid question as are the reasons for excluding some from answering

Re: Defence of Islam and Locals
 

its probably because we all know and accept that the shitty expat brats are not the norm and clearly in the wrong whereas the polite emirati child is unusual enough for one poster to comment upon.
cliches and stereotypes become just that because of the frequency of behavior. it may not be palatable or true in 100% of case but it is true enough that they become stereotypical.
I already said that there are plenty of people who do not fit the stereotype but in my experience most dont live in the cities.

I too wish there could be a meeting point but were that to ever happen one of the keys would have to be the local acceptance that there is enough ill behaviour within the local community to warrant that attitude that they so hate and deny existing. In the interest of fairness I will gladly acknowledge that there is an ever increasing array of arsehole expats who must drive nationals nuts.
if the uae is to have a multicultural future then (and its true for the whole gcc) the locals must accept that there are huge issues within its population and with its populations attitude to non nationals.
non nationals generally come here with open minds but that is slowly beaten out of them with experience.

20 years ago we all lived together to jointly build a country for our joint future, now however its is so clear in the younger generations that expats are virtually hated that most expats think "**** you then i'll make my money and go home"
a joint future was baba zayeds dream and plan but since his death that ethos has died a horrible painful death and where we are today has a bleak future.
ask your emirati family if they think the country has changed direction for the better or worse since his death? we both know what the answer will be.

Zayed would be spinning in his grave at the thought of the animosity that now exists, that there are locals from lesser family names who are living almost destitute and expats who care little for the countries future!

Re: Defence of Islam and Locals
 

which is really where the problem is, as any criticism is instantly labeled as uninformed and racist.

when criticism is born not of ignorance but years of first hand experience and knowledge then whilst it may be unpalatable it cannot just be dismissed off hand as is happening more and more

Re: Defence of Islam and Locals
 

Agreed. Open debate should be encouraged. It's when it turns into silly name-calling that I turn off and tune out.

Re: Defence of Islam and Locals
 

If you are stupid & ignorant enough to think that all Israelis are Jewish, then you'll no doubt believe that there's a man sitting on a cloud directing the world...

Trolls are really tiresome.
-

Re: Defence of Islam and Locals
 

especially when that troll comes back again...and again...and again...and again...

yawn...

MM, xx

Re: Defence of Islam and Locals
 

Interesting I was with a national last night for dinner and we were discussing the UAE and how it had become, he is a pure national and he is horrified at the way the UAE has become, he said that there was no forward planning but just greed on behalf of the UAE, he used an observation that if you follow a recepie for a cake but decide to add ingrediants from another recepie you would end up with a mess and that is what the UAE has done, they did not test out having so many nationalities with different cultural and religious beliefs, he said it is a clear recepie for disaster.

On your final comment Shk Zayed did a great deal for his nationals, since he passed away this has all changed, there is a great deal of resentment from the UAE nationals towards to expats why ?? let me give you an example, the Beach Road was the origional "jumeriah" where all the nationals lived, along came a Shk and said give me your land and I will give you a house fully built and worth more, he took the land, gave the nationals villas next to a sewerage plant and then sold of the land to non nationals at a greater profit, the national feel that their prime land and positions are taken by expats who come and abuse the system, flaunt the laws and then go home leaving the nationals priced out of buying a home in an area that they came from and no positions available to them.

Having said all of that there is a minset with some UAE nationals that feel that they should be given everything for doing nothing, this unfortunatley has been bought about by greed and money and a false upbringing. They also feel they have the right to flout the laws and get away with it as it is their country, little do they realise that with this attitude they are making it far worse. 65% of the small UAE population live below what expats would class as the breadline and that is sad. To see an old man who has no children standing on the side of the road begging for a lift in this heat with no home to go to is a sad situation and the UAE need to adress and put some money back into the society at a lower level rather than keep feeding the fat money grabbers at the top.

Sad as it is, I cannot see things changing soon.