Data Gathering
 

Morning all,

Read an article about a woman who set up her home with all smart devices going, from Vizio TV to Alexa and even a wifi enabled toothbrush.

She then went hunting to find what data they gather on her.

Generally she came back saying it was normal stuff around usage, although the toothbrush would report if she didn't use it. Alexa was sending information back regularly so Amazon can target adverts at her and the TV could report when she was binge watching TV shows and suggest others / advertise targeted products / shows.

She went on to think about how much more there was actually being shared that we don't know about and the impact of GDPR coming in Europe.

(Source: BBC Article)


Some interesting points raised I think, especially with Facebook being the current primary target for reaction to this.

Who is bothered if your toothbrush manufacturer knows if you brushed your teeth?
Does targeted advertising based on your interests bother you?
Would transparency or a waiver to sign make you happier about the data you share?

Personally, none of this greatly bothers me. Targeted advertising is a good thing; it means I don't see adverts for tampons or Portsmouth shirts and I do see adverts for new golf clubs and holidays etc.

I found something in Facebook which is quite interesting too, a feature which shows you your profile and how they see you. They're your 'categories', mine include (I'll write them as they're written): away from family, birthday in March, commuter, expats (UK), frequent travellers, soccer fans, early technology adopters.

There are more, but lots of repetition. This is where they'll build your political affiliation (that's how I found it, from a link moaning that facebook assumes your political stance), but the information is very accurate and relevant so what's the harm in facebook making those estimations about me and sharing content based on this?

Anyone got any thoughts on it all?

Re: Data Gathering
 

I remember several years ago going onto google maps to look at the location of the hotel I'd booked in another city and lo and behold there was a little reminder in the map of my hotel stay in that hotel. And then I noticed when I scrolled over Dubai airport there was a reminder of my upcoming flight. It was a WTF moment because how did google maps have that information, till I realised they likely got it through an algorithm that had access to my email (gmail of course) and booking.com bookings.

We are in unchartered waters. The amount of data gathering and profiling that's available to everyone from corporations to political parties is on a scale utterly unthinkable a decade ago.

I am still not quite sure how I feel about it. There's an element of privacy and anonymity that is rapidly disappearing but how important is it to really have that privacy? After all, it's not a case of a maniac dictator gleefully laughing behind the curtains as he manipulates data to ruin people's lives. And the advantage of data gathering is that it does make things and even decision making much more efficient.

The real worry for some people is the use of data in politics. I'm sanguine on this. The muted reaction to the CA scandal has outraged the hardcore politicos but that's because the latter fails to realise all the other movements and parties were doing similar tactics. The Obama campaign apparently had the most sophisticated and phenomenal data gathering and profiling machine, people are just more upset that the "wrong" side won this time around and and thus the reaction, so where was the out roar over data gathering five years ago when it was already pretty glaringly obvious what was going on? This is the more intriguing question for me.

Nonetheless, the real long term implication of data gathering is the risk that your profile becomes controlled by the data collected on you and makes it difficult for you to present different profiles of yourself when you want to.

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There is a significant amount of data gathering going on, but its not that hard to restrict it. I.E Don't click on those stupid games and quizzes on FB.

As you say, i like data gathering so that it targets advertising and I get relevant information such as new series on Netflix and Amazon prime. One of the reasons I went dow the home kit/homepod route with Apple rather than Alexa/Amazon speaker is that Apple is much more careful what it shares and is generally way more secure.

At the end of the day, I don't care what people know about me as I have nothing to hide. This debate is quite similar (in my mind) to the National ID card argument. Many of the people who were against that, generally had things that they thought they needed to keep quiet.

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Good post.

Booking.com annoy me because when you click around searching for deals, they then PEPPER your inbox for the following week trying to get you to book. Such is.
Google tracks a lot for me because I have gmail, so flights, hotels and so forth are all logged in there and it points at things on maps etc. I don't mind, it's useful crossover sometimes and some people might use it to remind them. I'm more organised than that but don't get upset by it :thumbup:

Interesting point on the 'wrong' side winning and Obama. Haven't stopped and thought about the CA stuff properly yet.

You're right it's uncharted waters and that's what's good about the GDPR regulations coming in and how confidential data needs to be treated about individuals. I guess these things will evolve and then need to be updated. When motor cars came in there weren't the same limits as today and the use of them, regulations and safety has evolved. Perhaps internet data etc will be the same.

ID card is a good example. I'm the same, nothing to hide and happy to carry on (here or in the UK). The fuss around it is pathetic.

In most of the websites, apps and so forth you have options to restrict what you share to a greater or lesser extent. There are options today to stop sharing on some completely.

We could all live off grid completely with IKnowNothing and his collection of tin foil hats?:thumbup:

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Agreed. I have nothing to hide. There is an element of paranoia among some people (far right and far left) who don't trust the government or establishment. But the price of civilisation is that we must trust one another to some degree. And historically there is a pattern that the more we trust one another, in whatever form it takes, the better off society does become.

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Think I'll keep this page open today for when the tinfoil hats wake up :-)

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Very true. I shouldn't actually have named IKnowNothing before he's said something about it, if he chooses to.

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Personally, I have nothing to hide. But the amount of data collected is mind-blowing (I work in this industry). For example, I'm still on the smokes and always pay cash - if in the future I need to pay for health insurance do I want my weekly consumption to be out there and up for sale to an insurance company? Same goes for food and drink.

If we look at how much the world has changed in the last 20 years in regards to technology, then what is in store for the next 20, 30 or 40 years?

I don’t wear a tin foil hat, but as already said, this is unchartered territory and as peoples profiles are built up from collecting data, who knows what this can be used for in future.

I think it’s very naive to just see data collection being used just for marketing the latest brand of shampoo or where you might want to go on holiday. Or that you can control this by not clicking on certain links on a web page.

Re: Data Gathering
 

Should the data on you smoking be available to insurers? Hiding it is just lying on a form though isn't it, which is fraud...so sharing information about someone makes these things more transparent?

I don't think it's just marketing and easily blocked but it's a good example of where it's not really that harmful and potentially useful / appreciated.

Re: Data Gathering
 

I'm with Scamp on this. If you smoke, the insurer has the right to access that data if its out there so that their premiums reflect fairly to everyone. HOWEVER, what I do object to is if the same insurer penalizes the smoker but does not reward the non-smoker and pockets the change. Data has a cost to businesses, but its not that much really.

I too have worked in IT all my life and analytics software for the last 10. We worked with a health ministry of a regional country to detect fraud through the use of analytical data, including social media data that the subjects had made free to air. The total amount of real fraud uncovered in a two week proof of concept amounted to about 20% of all premiums paid for the same period. I honestly believe that this is one of the areas that scare people about data mining; they'll get caught for their wrong doing that they've got away with for years.

How many serious crimes are solved in the West every day by the use of public CCTV - isn't that just data gathering in another form and will have no effect on the innocents?

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What if... the posts on here and some other social media tracking / cctv face recognition etc put you on the wrong side of the law for helping your pissed son in law the other day? Still nothing to hide? I believe you hid something on the day...

I recently loaded a zillion photos into the google cloud. Apart from a select handful of me doing things questionable and illegal in some countries yet allowed in others. While I have little to hide and a lot to share you still need to think t all through.

I’m not on Facebook but I do use instragram, am tempted to delete it but I do get entertainment from it for now.

In short, I don’t think the whole issue is black or white.

Re: Data Gathering
 

Fair enough on the smoking - maybe not the best example (although I'm fine taking a medical for any insurer and face the consequences of smoking).

What about food and drink - you will know from analytics the detail they can go into. If someone has what is perceived as an unhealthy diet, should they be penalized? Who will dictate what is healthy/unhealthy?

For me, the issue is around that I should be able to do anything legal without it being tracked and potentially passed on to third parties.

This is only touching on part of data analytics - is what CA did just the tip of the iceberg? I would suspect so.

Re: Data Gathering
 

You can't quit Instagram, you love looking at my holiday snaps too much.

These never are black and white.

I know you're replying to TheShed but I was being a bit facetious about the smoking.

Remember that movie - Demolition Man. That's what I fear, where the state just has ultimate control over you and can issue fines and tickets and prison time with such ease.

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You ain't seen me, right? *taps nose* ;)

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Wondered when you'd show up :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

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Good point Millhouse, although I don't think i was actually breaking any laws by helping (my daughters visiting friends' BF who I've never met) to clear the scene and avoid getting pictured in the Daily Mail.

I would like to see how our hosts or any other sovereign nation could arrest a third party national for doing something in another country that is legal in that location if there was no effect on the arresting nation?

I agree its not black and white and data reproduction and usage still has a very long way to go in terms of regulation and compliance. Its still a very new industry.

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I won't rise to your jibes young man, you do realise you're in a hugely monitored country. Now if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear yes?

I know it's the fail, but this was also in The National, does this concern you? That your car number plate (and the monitors) know where you are, the speed you're travelling, all your local haunts, the mobile numbers in your vehicle (and the websites/emails you send) etc. etc.?

Now I personally don't want Big Brother knowing my every move (although if they "watched" me they'd get very bored, very quickly), I see that as a step too far, however, it'll happen, nothing will be done to stop it (you can't stop progress and this is progress yes?).

Just by using a phone the network knows where you are - even with a VPN, the handset will show your location when it's connected or trying to connect to, a mobile (voice) network. So what's the difference?

Incidentally, in 2002 or so me and my team introduced data gathering to Sainsbury's in the UK, we used the analogy of people who buy expensive pet food or more likely to buy pet insurance, hence you only target those people (from their Nectar Card data). It paid for itself within 2 months of going live - we sold it too cheaply LOL

With the CA witch hunt, would you seriously change your vote from a to b because of a few tweets or similar? I'd suggest you wouldn't, as previously mentioned the wrong side won.

Re: Data Gathering
 

It was only friendly and I sort of retracted it, but the fear and panic of the tin foil hat is evident enough to justify it. ;);):rofl::rofl:

Interesting on the pet insurance, very simple analogy. Fair play for aligning something so easily :thumbup:

Re: Data Gathering
 

No problem, hence why I don't use government apps and usually pay by cash - that way "they" don't know my business.

I also give out the wrong phone number when asked in "Danube" for example.

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Regarding smoking, what would bother me, is if it got to the point that people in general are so online, having so much data collected and information available about them, that when someone wasn't on fb etc, when applying for insurance, they were automatically charged more because they were seen as a risk, almost as if they had something to hide.

I see that as a possibility.

Generally speaking, if you don't join the masses in all off this stuff, you must be hiding something, whether it's your health, political views, or whatever.

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Haha. Just like to keep an eye on you all. But not for nefarious reasons. Missing the happy hours at the Barrel!

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But not the £100 bill for a few beers and a burger.

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That doesn't hide anything, just unwanted text messages. I'm up to 1,952 unread texts on my phone. The *****.

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Out of curiosity, why don't you just delete them?

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Because it's trying to rake water uphill. Take yesterday for example, the maid company, Citibank, Pizza Hut and HSBC all texted me. On Saturday: Etisalat, 724Perfumes, GMS and AList all texted me. I've never heard of any of those last three.

Going into your phone 4 times a day and opening a text, closing it so it's marked as read or even just deleting it is harder than just ignoring them. That's all, just can't be bothered to continuously delete or read pointless messages.

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So wouldn't it be better if you didn't get them in the first place?

Problem is here there's no data protection so unscrupulous people buy and sell contact lists.

I get a few messages every day from some Insurance company that says my documents are ready to collect and Mashreq offering me loads of "offers".

My number was previously owned by an insurance broker that banked with Mashreq. Is it worth contacting the companies and hoping they'll remove the number? Of course not.

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Of course, but that's not really a privacy issue, it's just annoying texts. Giving out your number barely makes a difference given how easy it is to buy lists of numbers as you mention.

It's like anything - you don't have to read the texts, you don't have to answer your phone and you don't have to answer your front door if you don't want to. Gave a lecture to a guy selling water at the front door because he wouldn't stop ringing the doorbell (could hear the TV on). Eventually answered and asked him very nicely to go away. He asked why I wasn't answering the door and did I want a water cooler. I told him I was busy doing something and didn't want to be interrupted. He didn't get it at all of course but constantly letting things interrupt you and your day is something I find very frustrating.

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Misanthropic Scamp.

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I had HSBC ring me up the other day telling me I could now update my EID details online.... I asked if my details need updated and he said no. So I asked him WTF he was calling me to tell me such pointless bollocks.

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Not really.
If a stranger comes up to you in the street and asks if you're interested in services you already have do you stop and waste time talking to them? You politely say no because you've got no choice but to respond because of convention and rules of politeness. When there's a door there or a ringing phone, it's far easier to avoid all that bullshit charade and just not answer it.

Exactly. Waste of your time, you end up confused and frustrated with them and have lost your train of thought or process that you were in. Pointless.

Re: Data Gathering
 

This is the bit I don't care for, because you'll essentially be living in an echo chamber of your own confirmation bias (as curated by facebook or whoever).

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This is part of why the "I have nothing to hide" sanctimoniousness is so deadly. That implies that we should all be prepared to have all of our information available at all times - and to whom exactly? Those of you who seem very blase about this: are you really sure that's what you want? Be very careful what you are giving away.

As an LGBTQ (and whatever other letters we're adding at the moment) person, I certainly want to control who has access to any information about me as there are many people, known and unknown, who would wish me ill. Indeed as an insufferable c***, I certainly want to control who has access to any information about me as there are many people, known and unknown, who would wish me ill.

I know several people who have had severe family trauma with involuntary outing because they could not figure out the infernal privacy settings on FB. One reason I have never joined. It is not for Facebook to decide with whom I want to share important and potentially risky personal information yet we seem to be mindlessly surrendering that prerogative. And the expectation that we should be happily prepared to do this becomes a new standard group norm - you must join those who have "nothing to hide". That stands ultimately to make the world an even more dangerous and unpleasant place to live.

Re: Data Gathering
 

i think this, posted in the Bali thread by Desert Shaikh, particularly the last scene in the video, pertains exactly to this topic also....



I'm sure some of you FB whizzes can figure out how to embed it properly... Er it seems I managed somehow but I'm sure some boffin - correction, server - in Peoria or Pune has logged it in my record of poor technical literacy against which my application for a licence to participate in future society will soon be judged.

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So what are you hiding?

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Eh. People already do that, facebook or not. Nothing new there.


It's easy to pin the blame on facebook but confirmation bias and echo chambers are as old as time.

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I'm not blaming face book for that, however when (and increasingly so) all your news comes through one source with its sophisticated algorithms to curate to your tastes, it's a little different to days of old.

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That's a painfully obvious but very good point. A lot of my friends were pro-remain (as an example that's good but with the potential to derail us signinficantly) and posted / shared the pro-remain propaganda. I did see the opposite as well but less.

Just as a counter, for sake of debate....This is fair enough but user error isn't the fault of a business. Nor is anyone forced into joining any social media or expected to sacrifice privacy. I'm not a total facebook fanboy, I appreciate it's uses but have enjoyed Zuckerberg being interrogated because when he squirms it gives cause for concern but when he clearly articulates that they don't take X data, it's quite compelling and believable. It's certainly dispelling a lot of myths.

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You could have said the same about mother Beeb for a long time now.

We have far more sources for news and information these days that it's a sheer struggle to keep track of them all. Because of that people continue to stick with what they know and already trust, largely because they like seeing and hearing what they're told by those sources. The Guardian is definitely an echo chamber, has always been an echo chamber, and is no different today than 25 years ago. The DT does the same.

I remember having a discussion with a wise person who commented that a few decades ago the majority of news was controlled by a small handful of outlets. Today there is a far broader selection to pick from. What's actually happened is the lost of control of the media narrative by that previous small handful of outlets, who were usually left / establishment leaning. They are aghast at it, usually because they saw themselves as having a moral responsibility for filtering news to the common masses, but the truth is that they were no better or morally superior and were highly susceptible to their own biases.

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Imagine if in 1950s Germany, the government had access to so much data on people. Ann Frank would never have been able to finish her diary.

Zee Germans are great these-days on data protection for these exact paranoia concerns.

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Godwin's law, eh?

Anne Frank was already dead by the 1950s but your point is taken. The question goes back to what I earlier alluded to and it's whether you trust your government or not.

Speaking of Germans, if you explore their cities on google earth you'll find a lot of buildings blurred out. I find it intriguing. It's very rare to find blurred buildings or houses on google earth in the UK. That says much about the differences between the Germans and British.