The Burka
Oct 26th 2013, 3:50 pm
#92
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Re: The Burka
Go to Newcastle fishy where women wear basically F all on a friday night and go out, drink and arrive home safely as the men know how to behave and respect a female. A society that has to repress women because you cannot trust the men is 200 years behind a civilised country just behind India
Oct 26th 2013, 4:54 pm
#93
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Re: The Burka
Are (Christian) nuns not symbolic of a belief that is as much political as it is religious and cultural? There's been a lot of damage done to a lot of lives, over centuries, in the name of Christianity. No different to any other religion, really (though I admit to being totally ignorant about lots of eastern religions, so that's perhaps too bold a statement). Why ban the symbol(s) of one but not another?
In any case the Catholic Church doesn't hold any kind of serious power in Europe, especially in the UK. And I'll repeat myself again - the ban being discussed here is on total face coverings not veils that cover the hair. And the main reasons are security and communication (which are perfectly valid reasons that also align with our culture and values)
The burqa (much like the habit!) is worn by such a tiny minority of women. The niqab might be slightly more common, but I'd guess that the majority of Muslim women in the UK (who choose such things) wear hijab. Why does the burqa undermine equality, and should be banned, but the hijab doesn't? I don't know that it's about assimilation. I suspect western women in somewhere like KSA are covering up out of respect (fear of what would happen if they didn't?!), rather than because of assimilating to local culture. One of the things I kinda like about the UK is the freedom of choice when it comes to what people can and cannot wear.
Like I said in an earlier post, personally, I think education rather than telling people what they can and cannot wear might be part of the answer. But it's a hugely complex matter, with myriad factors impacting the issue, and I doubt there's a one-size fits all (ha!) quick fix. I don't pretend to know a solution.
And at the same time ban the covering of the face in courts, airports, schools, hospitals etc - and give the police the right to ask for face coverings to be removed if they need to identify someone.
If some people really cannot accept these proposals it's a big world out there and many places far more receptive to cultural and religious sensibilities of minority people taking precedent over security and practicality.
N.
Oct 26th 2013, 4:56 pm
#94
Forum Regular
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 208
Re: The Burka
In Ramadan they ban the daytime provision of food and drink in public because people here have such little self control - or at least that's my take on it. I think that reflects very badly on all Muslims who believe it's appropriate to test one's self control by banning all temptation in the first place.
I don't see why these same people wouldn't truly believe that men are completely incapable of behaving properly in the vicinity of a less than modestly dressed woman.
I don't see why these same people wouldn't truly believe that men are completely incapable of behaving properly in the vicinity of a less than modestly dressed woman.
Oct 26th 2013, 7:20 pm
#95
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Re: The Burka
And you don't seem to understand that having clear ideas about how Britain should handle it's immigration and naturalisation policies is very different to being someone who doesn't think anyone should migrate anywhere, ever for any length of time, or mix with other people etcetera.
I've never said people shouldn't migrate, or that people can't go somewhere else to work. I am very specifically talking about people who move to Britain and who settle and gain citizenship. And I find I repeat this often and some still equate this with some sort of enraged flag waving wife beater who wants to stay at home and never go anywhere that doesn't have fish and chips. I wonder if this is a deliberate ploy to undermine proper immigration and culture debate or simple laziness and ignorance. I would hope the latter.
Perhaps a little less ad hominem and a bit more of the issue at hand would be better in any case.
N.
Oct 26th 2013, 8:09 pm
#96
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Re: The Burka
'None of us'? I wasn't aware you spoke for everyone.
And you don't seem to understand that having clear ideas about how Britain should handle it's immigration and naturalisation policies is very different to being someone who doesn't think anyone should migrate anywhere, ever for any length of time, or mix with other people etcetera.
I've never said people shouldn't migrate, or that people can't go somewhere else to work. I am very specifically talking about people who move to Britain and who settle and gain citizenship. And I find I repeat this often and some still equate this with some sort of enraged flag waving wife beater who wants to stay at home and never go anywhere that doesn't have fish and chips. I wonder if this is a deliberate ploy to undermine proper immigration and culture debate or simple laziness and ignorance. I would hope the latter.
Perhaps a little less ad hominem and a bit more of the issue at hand would be better in any case.
N.
And you don't seem to understand that having clear ideas about how Britain should handle it's immigration and naturalisation policies is very different to being someone who doesn't think anyone should migrate anywhere, ever for any length of time, or mix with other people etcetera.
I've never said people shouldn't migrate, or that people can't go somewhere else to work. I am very specifically talking about people who move to Britain and who settle and gain citizenship. And I find I repeat this often and some still equate this with some sort of enraged flag waving wife beater who wants to stay at home and never go anywhere that doesn't have fish and chips. I wonder if this is a deliberate ploy to undermine proper immigration and culture debate or simple laziness and ignorance. I would hope the latter.
Perhaps a little less ad hominem and a bit more of the issue at hand would be better in any case.
N.
Of course, the country gives a lot of benefits that our own countries do not provide: higher salaries and easy visas for partners so I guess that compensates the pain.
Oct 26th 2013, 8:10 pm
#97
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Oct 27th 2013, 1:56 am
#98
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Joined: Aug 2012
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Re: The Burka
Nuns belong to voluntary orders, and as I said already many do not wear habits any more. Moaning about what happened in the past can apply even more to Islam. 1400 years of imperialism, slave taking and annexation. Cultures destroyed and stagnation of invention after a promising three century stint. 1/3 of the then Christian world annexed before any so-called crusade was launched (which failed to re-take anything for any length of time). The past is full of such things. On the grounds of history we should be incredibly suspicious of Islam in the West but to even suggest such a thing is racist and intolerant.
In any case the Catholic Church doesn't hold any kind of serious power in Europe, especially in the UK. And I'll repeat myself again - the ban being discussed here is on total face coverings not veils that cover the hair. And the main reasons are security and communication (which are perfectly valid reasons that also align with our culture and values)
Nothing has been banned yet in the UK, there is a debate as to the specifics. It will come down to covering the face in public buildings, airports, hospitals, banks, courts will be banned. It may also give the right to private shop keepers to ask someone to remove face coverings for security reasons. If nuns completely covered their face they would be subject to these proposals too.
I agree. Let's ban all religious schools (many of which receive public funding) and force everyone in Britain to have a secular education where they learn British history, culture and religious studies are taught objectively in a separate class from science.
And at the same time ban the covering of the face in courts, airports, schools, hospitals etc - and give the police the right to ask for face coverings to be removed if they need to identify someone.
If some people really cannot accept these proposals it's a big world out there and many places far more receptive to cultural and religious sensibilities of minority people taking precedent over security and practicality.
N.
In any case the Catholic Church doesn't hold any kind of serious power in Europe, especially in the UK. And I'll repeat myself again - the ban being discussed here is on total face coverings not veils that cover the hair. And the main reasons are security and communication (which are perfectly valid reasons that also align with our culture and values)
Nothing has been banned yet in the UK, there is a debate as to the specifics. It will come down to covering the face in public buildings, airports, hospitals, banks, courts will be banned. It may also give the right to private shop keepers to ask someone to remove face coverings for security reasons. If nuns completely covered their face they would be subject to these proposals too.
I agree. Let's ban all religious schools (many of which receive public funding) and force everyone in Britain to have a secular education where they learn British history, culture and religious studies are taught objectively in a separate class from science.
And at the same time ban the covering of the face in courts, airports, schools, hospitals etc - and give the police the right to ask for face coverings to be removed if they need to identify someone.
If some people really cannot accept these proposals it's a big world out there and many places far more receptive to cultural and religious sensibilities of minority people taking precedent over security and practicality.
N.
I’ve actually given up on arguing with you on matters of history, since the time you ditched my question to you about Israel. It gave me the idea what kind of a THINKER you are. The amount of hate and grudge you harbor for Islam is just blinding. There is no way one can reason with such an impartial person who only see one side of the story ( I am certain there are personal reasons for that). I can assure you, though, that you will turn cherry faced if I was to open the history books with you and start comparing notes, but I’d much rather talk about our present time’s problems and leave the dead in peace.
Oct 27th 2013, 2:13 am
#100
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Oct 27th 2013, 7:15 am
#101
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Re: The Burka
'None of us'? I wasn't aware you spoke for everyone.
And you don't seem to understand that having clear ideas about how Britain should handle it's immigration and naturalisation policies is very different to being someone who doesn't think anyone should migrate anywhere, ever for any length of time, or mix with other people etcetera.
I've never said people shouldn't migrate, or that people can't go somewhere else to work. I am very specifically talking about people who move to Britain and who settle and gain citizenship. And I find I repeat this often and some still equate this with some sort of enraged flag waving wife beater who wants to stay at home and never go anywhere that doesn't have fish and chips. I wonder if this is a deliberate ploy to undermine proper immigration and culture debate or simple laziness and ignorance. I would hope the latter.
Perhaps a little less ad hominem and a bit more of the issue at hand would be better in any case.
N.
And you don't seem to understand that having clear ideas about how Britain should handle it's immigration and naturalisation policies is very different to being someone who doesn't think anyone should migrate anywhere, ever for any length of time, or mix with other people etcetera.
I've never said people shouldn't migrate, or that people can't go somewhere else to work. I am very specifically talking about people who move to Britain and who settle and gain citizenship. And I find I repeat this often and some still equate this with some sort of enraged flag waving wife beater who wants to stay at home and never go anywhere that doesn't have fish and chips. I wonder if this is a deliberate ploy to undermine proper immigration and culture debate or simple laziness and ignorance. I would hope the latter.
Perhaps a little less ad hominem and a bit more of the issue at hand would be better in any case.
N.
Over the years, quite a few on here have said the same thing, hence my use of 'none'. If there person who does understand it will come forward, of course I will gladly retract the word.
Oct 27th 2013, 8:34 am
#102
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,643
Re: The Burka
Actually you have a point there. You should indeed be suspicious of islam in the west because there is a likelihood that it will win over the minds and the hearts of the indigenous (as it had done before with other nations before) and you and the other scaremongers will be the biggest losers.
Listen I know some people converted willingly , but countless millions in regions stretching from North Africa to the Near East to South Asia were forced into it. Islam went with the sword in 1 hand and the Quran in the other.
Your comment is as ridiculous as saying that Native South Americans willingly accepted Catholicism from Iberian conquistadors.
Oct 27th 2013, 8:22 pm
#103
Hit 16's
Joined: Mar 2010
Location: Of all the gin joints, in all the towns, in all the world, she walks into mine
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Re: The Burka
It seems strange to me to complain about Muslims making your country look like a ghetto or whatever your exact words were, but living in a Muslim country while quite obviously loathing the culture.
Over the years, quite a few on here have said the same thing, hence my use of 'none'. If there person who does understand it will come forward, of course I will gladly retract the word.
Over the years, quite a few on here have said the same thing, hence my use of 'none'. If there person who does understand it will come forward, of course I will gladly retract the word.
I bet there are a good many of us, myself included, who loathe the culture yet still live (t)here. Why do we do it? Because life is a compromise. Essentially I like British culture, but I loathe what is happening to it. I loathe the apparent dominance of opinion as represented by the Daily Mail (although, sadly, it has always been populist and popular), the apparent dominance of “liberal” immigration policies which have led to some towns and cities being unrecognisable as British, but most of all I loathe the gradual degeneration on some many levels (caused by Brits). But would I live there? Yes. For exactly the same reasons that I (would) live in the Middle East: compromise. That compromise consists mainly of insulation and opportunity. Insulation in that I have and hope to retain sufficient earning power to remain adequately distant from the loathsome aspects of Middle Eastern culture, and sufficient wealth to remain adequately distant from the loathsome aspects of British culture. (A pre-requisite for both is the ability to compartmentalise, which I have.) And opportunity in that, while working, I have a degree of attractiveness to employers and the flexibility to decide roughly where I work, at a price that is sufficient to provide the aforementioned insulation. After I retire (most probably to the UK, as a base) I expect to have the opportunity to use my resources to provide the insulation I want (part of which will be by travelling, but the bulk being from choosing where to live).
I’m pretty sure that Norm’s rationale for living in a culture which he loathes (if that is the word he’d chose) is not so dissimilar—for the time being the compromise has a balance to it which means the pros outweigh the cons. Pretty much like the two buckets theory.
Oct 27th 2013, 8:30 pm
#104
Hit 16's
Joined: Mar 2010
Location: Of all the gin joints, in all the towns, in all the world, she walks into mine
Posts: 13,112
Re: The Burka
Actually you have a point there. You should indeed be suspicious of islam in the west because there is a likelihood that it will win over the minds and the hearts of the indigenous (as it had done before with other nations before) and you and the other scaremongers will be the biggest losers.
