Bitcoins
Dec 8th 2013, 12:17 pm
#31
Knee deep and rising
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 3,007
Re: Bitcoins
It's in its infancy but I am sure if it survives, the technology to do it automatically will follow soon. It's not that long since we switched from cash to cards that debit bank accounts instantly, so I don't think its a big jump to do it. A net connection is the only requirement.
The advantages are huge, no currency exchange fees, no fees at the point of sale (like the 1-2% for credit cards) and it circumvents all the government money transfer controls. That's imo the reason China are against it, because they cannot restrict the flow of money out of the country. You could buy bitcoins in Chinese RMB and cash them out in dollars anywhere in the world.
I do like the concept a lot obviously but I also like the opportunity to make some money out of it.
Dec 8th 2013, 12:21 pm
#32
Account Closed
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 0
Re: Bitcoins
That's how they are traded but if you were operating to use them at point of sale, then definitely they should be converted at the time of the payment.
It's in its infancy but I am sure if it survives, the technology to do it automatically will follow soon. It's not that long since we switched from cash to cards that debit bank accounts instantly, so I don't think its a big jump to do it. A net connection is the only requirement.
The advantages are huge, no currency exchange fees, no fees at the point of sale (like the 1-2% for credit cards) and it circumvents all the government money transfer controls. That's imo the reason China are against it, because they cannot restrict the flow of money out of the country. You could buy bitcoins in Chinese RMB and cash them out in dollars anywhere in the world.
I do like the concept a lot obviously but I also like the opportunity to make some money out of it.
It's in its infancy but I am sure if it survives, the technology to do it automatically will follow soon. It's not that long since we switched from cash to cards that debit bank accounts instantly, so I don't think its a big jump to do it. A net connection is the only requirement.
The advantages are huge, no currency exchange fees, no fees at the point of sale (like the 1-2% for credit cards) and it circumvents all the government money transfer controls. That's imo the reason China are against it, because they cannot restrict the flow of money out of the country. You could buy bitcoins in Chinese RMB and cash them out in dollars anywhere in the world.
I do like the concept a lot obviously but I also like the opportunity to make some money out of it.
I haven't read the China stuff yet, but will do. Assumed it would be a control issue.
Time will tell I guess.
Dec 8th 2013, 2:12 pm
#33
**** it we'll do it live
Joined: Oct 2004
Location: Dubai
Posts: 7,892
Re: Bitcoins
I only wish I'd mined it a few years ago. Seriously looking at mining lite coins
Dec 8th 2013, 3:30 pm
#34
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 13,553
Re: Bitcoins
I had the sheer bloody nerve to criticise the whole concept of Bitcoin on Twitter last night - and Twitter Earth opened up and swallowed me........
"I don't think you understand the "actor trust" issues involved, fundamentally inherent, especially in the Global economic scene"
"You may manage without Bitcoin, but your Grand children won't manage without a cryptocurrency......"
[and so on........]
........... good grief........... idiots.........
"I don't think you understand the "actor trust" issues involved, fundamentally inherent, especially in the Global economic scene"
"You may manage without Bitcoin, but your Grand children won't manage without a cryptocurrency......"
[and so on........]
........... good grief........... idiots.........
Last edited by The Dean; Dec 8th 2013 at 3:31 pm. Reason: .
Dec 8th 2013, 5:47 pm
#35
Powered by cows
Joined: Jul 2004
Location: currently Dubai, ex UK
Posts: 4,582
Re: Bitcoins
That's how they are traded but if you were operating to use them at point of sale, then definitely they should be converted at the time of the payment.
It's in its infancy but I am sure if it survives, the technology to do it automatically will follow soon. It's not that long since we switched from cash to cards that debit bank accounts instantly, so I don't think its a big jump to do it. A net connection is the only requirement.
The advantages are huge, no currency exchange fees, no fees at the point of sale (like the 1-2% for credit cards) and it circumvents all the government money transfer controls. That's imo the reason China are against it, because they cannot restrict the flow of money out of the country. You could buy bitcoins in Chinese RMB and cash them out in dollars anywhere in the world.
I do like the concept a lot obviously but I also like the opportunity to make some money out of it.
It's in its infancy but I am sure if it survives, the technology to do it automatically will follow soon. It's not that long since we switched from cash to cards that debit bank accounts instantly, so I don't think its a big jump to do it. A net connection is the only requirement.
The advantages are huge, no currency exchange fees, no fees at the point of sale (like the 1-2% for credit cards) and it circumvents all the government money transfer controls. That's imo the reason China are against it, because they cannot restrict the flow of money out of the country. You could buy bitcoins in Chinese RMB and cash them out in dollars anywhere in the world.
I do like the concept a lot obviously but I also like the opportunity to make some money out of it.
Why?
For all the reasons you have all mentioned with cryptocurrency and also the standards and algorithms associated with Swift code payments. Interest in not what it is per se now seen as a currency but also in the encryption and payment model as well as the digital financial locker model. Much talk about share transactions using such currency in the near future....
Dec 8th 2013, 7:07 pm
#36
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 13,553
Re: Bitcoins
It is being taken serious I'm sure - I covered the massive SIBOS event a couple of months back - organised by Swift (of swift code bank codes) approx 10,000 delegate finance event at DWTC - huge event. Definite "star" presenter was one of the Bitcoin guys, loads of interest in the concept from delegates and also from top guys at Swift - CEO of Swift was very interested in the Bitcoin guy...
Why?
For all the reasons you have all mentioned with cryptocurrency and also the standards and algorithms associated with Swift code payments. Interest in not what it is per se now seen as a currency but also in the encryption and payment model as well as the digital financial locker model. Much talk about share transactions using such currency in the near future....
Why?
For all the reasons you have all mentioned with cryptocurrency and also the standards and algorithms associated with Swift code payments. Interest in not what it is per se now seen as a currency but also in the encryption and payment model as well as the digital financial locker model. Much talk about share transactions using such currency in the near future....
Tell me - did anyone ask/discuss anything about monetary authority, lender of last resort, etc?
Dec 9th 2013, 2:41 am
#37
**** it we'll do it live
Joined: Oct 2004
Location: Dubai
Posts: 7,892
Re: Bitcoins
I find it highly amusing that the world of finance is so spilt over these new currencies. Half amazed and interested in the technology, half utterly dismissive.
The history of currency is long and convoluted from shells and sheep to our current form of imaginary sums created arbitrarily by private companies operating under the guise of pseudo governmental identity.
Given the actual nature of crypto currencies they are fundamentally more "real" than any sums created by Central banks today. When promisory notes were backed by precious metal with its own inherent value there was a fundamental stability and transparency to it all. Now though a system is in place where currency is electronically created, moved, exchanged etc. in this regard bit coins et al are no different from dollars or euros.
All that is needed by any form of currency is that it be exchangeable and acceptable to people, both of these conditions have been met now by bitcoins, it's as real a currency now as any in history.
The counter argument is that it isn't regulated or backed by government but the events of recent years have shown us all just how fallacious the modern banking system really is anyway.
Gold had no actual use or value for the vast majority of human history yet was used and accepted as a currency. Modern currencies are no different, it's the belief by all that they have a "worth" that makes them and the system work, nothing more than confidence in an ultimately imaginary system.
As I say I find it amusing how much debate these things are causing especially as so much of it is startlingly similar to the arguments that were made against electronic banking, email and so on.
The history of currency is long and convoluted from shells and sheep to our current form of imaginary sums created arbitrarily by private companies operating under the guise of pseudo governmental identity.
Given the actual nature of crypto currencies they are fundamentally more "real" than any sums created by Central banks today. When promisory notes were backed by precious metal with its own inherent value there was a fundamental stability and transparency to it all. Now though a system is in place where currency is electronically created, moved, exchanged etc. in this regard bit coins et al are no different from dollars or euros.
All that is needed by any form of currency is that it be exchangeable and acceptable to people, both of these conditions have been met now by bitcoins, it's as real a currency now as any in history.
The counter argument is that it isn't regulated or backed by government but the events of recent years have shown us all just how fallacious the modern banking system really is anyway.
Gold had no actual use or value for the vast majority of human history yet was used and accepted as a currency. Modern currencies are no different, it's the belief by all that they have a "worth" that makes them and the system work, nothing more than confidence in an ultimately imaginary system.
As I say I find it amusing how much debate these things are causing especially as so much of it is startlingly similar to the arguments that were made against electronic banking, email and so on.
Dec 9th 2013, 5:46 am
#38
Powered by cows
Joined: Jul 2004
Location: currently Dubai, ex UK
Posts: 4,582
Re: Bitcoins
http://www.moneymorning.com.au/20130...ng-scared.html
And there’s one thing that’s crystal clear about global banks. They are all petrified. And those that aren’t are delusional.
Today reinforced my view of the world. We are at the start of a digital revolution. Change is already well underway for industries like medicine, manufacturing, travel, publishing and shopping.
The next industry that’s going to take the full force of the digital revolution is the global banking system.
In the very first session I heard from Scott Bales (Head of Mobile, MovenBank), Patrick Murch (General Council, Bitcoin Foundation), Gottfried Leibbrandt (CEO, SWIFT) and Dave Gray (Author of The Connected Company).
So be ready. The global economy is in a fragile state. There are start-up companies invading the banking landscape. And customers are as jaded with banks as ever before.
It’s a perfect storm to start a revolution in money.
http://www.sibos.com/conference/spea...peaker_id=1385
Dec 9th 2013, 1:33 pm
#39
Knee deep and rising
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 3,007
Re: Bitcoins
Banking especially high street retail banking is fast becoming an anachronism.
Dec 9th 2013, 4:03 pm
#40
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Aug 2009
Location: Disneyland, Dubai
Posts: 15,887
Re: Bitcoins
I find it highly amusing that the world of finance is so spilt over these new currencies. Half amazed and interested in the technology, half utterly dismissive.
The history of currency is long and convoluted from shells and sheep to our current form of imaginary sums created arbitrarily by private companies operating under the guise of pseudo governmental identity.
Given the actual nature of crypto currencies they are fundamentally more "real" than any sums created by Central banks today. When promisory notes were backed by precious metal with its own inherent value there was a fundamental stability and transparency to it all. Now though a system is in place where currency is electronically created, moved, exchanged etc. in this regard bit coins et al are no different from dollars or euros.
All that is needed by any form of currency is that it be exchangeable and acceptable to people, both of these conditions have been met now by bitcoins, it's as real a currency now as any in history.
The counter argument is that it isn't regulated or backed by government but the events of recent years have shown us all just how fallacious the modern banking system really is anyway.
Gold had no actual use or value for the vast majority of human history yet was used and accepted as a currency. Modern currencies are no different, it's the belief by all that they have a "worth" that makes them and the system work, nothing more than confidence in an ultimately imaginary system.
As I say I find it amusing how much debate these things are causing especially as so much of it is startlingly similar to the arguments that were made against electronic banking, email and so on.
The history of currency is long and convoluted from shells and sheep to our current form of imaginary sums created arbitrarily by private companies operating under the guise of pseudo governmental identity.
Given the actual nature of crypto currencies they are fundamentally more "real" than any sums created by Central banks today. When promisory notes were backed by precious metal with its own inherent value there was a fundamental stability and transparency to it all. Now though a system is in place where currency is electronically created, moved, exchanged etc. in this regard bit coins et al are no different from dollars or euros.
All that is needed by any form of currency is that it be exchangeable and acceptable to people, both of these conditions have been met now by bitcoins, it's as real a currency now as any in history.
The counter argument is that it isn't regulated or backed by government but the events of recent years have shown us all just how fallacious the modern banking system really is anyway.
Gold had no actual use or value for the vast majority of human history yet was used and accepted as a currency. Modern currencies are no different, it's the belief by all that they have a "worth" that makes them and the system work, nothing more than confidence in an ultimately imaginary system.
As I say I find it amusing how much debate these things are causing especially as so much of it is startlingly similar to the arguments that were made against electronic banking, email and so on.
The problem with Bitcoins is that there is no central bank, or government backing them. Since the removal of gold as a back stop for major currencies, the idea is that a government is able to back its currency by tax receipts (or extractive industries). This is why the value of a currency is linked to the stability of its government and its ability to tax.
Biocoins only have 'value' as people are willing to trade (government backed) currencies or illegal activities for bitcoins. While you can say the same for gold, gold is an accepted universal currency that has been developed over thousands of years - i don't see the bitcoin getting there.
i see online that while bitcoins are finite it is possible to do fractional reserve bitcoin banking. If this ever happened then you would have the perfect storm of an unregulated fiat currency not backed by tax receipts.
Last edited by Millhouse; Dec 9th 2013 at 4:06 pm.
Dec 9th 2013, 4:57 pm
#41
**** it we'll do it live
Joined: Oct 2004
Location: Dubai
Posts: 7,892
Re: Bitcoins
Well, yes and no.
The problem with Bitcoins is that there is no central bank, or government backing them. Since the removal of gold as a back stop for major currencies, the idea is that a government is able to back its currency by tax receipts (or extractive industries). This is why the value of a currency is linked to the stability of its government and its ability to tax.
Biocoins only have 'value' as people are willing to trade (government backed) currencies or illegal activities for bitcoins. While you can say the same for gold, gold is an accepted universal currency that has been developed over thousands of years - i don't see the bitcoin getting there.
i see online that while bitcoins are finite it is possible to do fractional reserve bitcoin banking. If this ever happened then you would have the perfect storm of an unregulated fiat currency not backed by tax receipts.
The problem with Bitcoins is that there is no central bank, or government backing them. Since the removal of gold as a back stop for major currencies, the idea is that a government is able to back its currency by tax receipts (or extractive industries). This is why the value of a currency is linked to the stability of its government and its ability to tax.
Biocoins only have 'value' as people are willing to trade (government backed) currencies or illegal activities for bitcoins. While you can say the same for gold, gold is an accepted universal currency that has been developed over thousands of years - i don't see the bitcoin getting there.
i see online that while bitcoins are finite it is possible to do fractional reserve bitcoin banking. If this ever happened then you would have the perfect storm of an unregulated fiat currency not backed by tax receipts.
Dec 10th 2013, 3:36 am
#42
Knee deep and rising
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 3,007
Re: Bitcoins
Well, yes and no.
The problem with Bitcoins is that there is no central bank, or government backing them. Since the removal of gold as a back stop for major currencies, the idea is that a government is able to back its currency by tax receipts (or extractive industries). This is why the value of a currency is linked to the stability of its government and its ability to tax.
Biocoins only have 'value' as people are willing to trade (government backed) currencies or illegal activities for bitcoins. While you can say the same for gold, gold is an accepted universal currency that has been developed over thousands of years - i don't see the bitcoin getting there.
i see online that while bitcoins are finite it is possible to do fractional reserve bitcoin banking. If this ever happened then you would have the perfect storm of an unregulated fiat currency not backed by tax receipts.
The problem with Bitcoins is that there is no central bank, or government backing them. Since the removal of gold as a back stop for major currencies, the idea is that a government is able to back its currency by tax receipts (or extractive industries). This is why the value of a currency is linked to the stability of its government and its ability to tax.
Biocoins only have 'value' as people are willing to trade (government backed) currencies or illegal activities for bitcoins. While you can say the same for gold, gold is an accepted universal currency that has been developed over thousands of years - i don't see the bitcoin getting there.
i see online that while bitcoins are finite it is possible to do fractional reserve bitcoin banking. If this ever happened then you would have the perfect storm of an unregulated fiat currency not backed by tax receipts.
What might be interesting with bitcoins also is the application of the similar electronic tagging to money, it's not much of a stretch to imagine at some point that the need to physically have notes will disappear completely (in the developed world at least). Perhaps virtual wallets will exist for all currencies.
Dec 10th 2013, 5:20 am
#43
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Aug 2009
Location: Disneyland, Dubai
Posts: 15,887
Re: Bitcoins
Almost every point mentioned could easily be applied to existing currencies imo, plus gold has not proven itself to a stable base (it's been going through its own boom/bust cycle over the last year.)
What might be interesting with bitcoins also is the application of the similar electronic tagging to money, it's not much of a stretch to imagine at some point that the need to physically have notes will disappear completely (in the developed world at least). Perhaps virtual wallets will exist for all currencies.
What might be interesting with bitcoins also is the application of the similar electronic tagging to money, it's not much of a stretch to imagine at some point that the need to physically have notes will disappear completely (in the developed world at least). Perhaps virtual wallets will exist for all currencies.
Dec 10th 2013, 5:27 am
#45
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Aug 2009
Location: Disneyland, Dubai
Posts: 15,887