Bet this has gone down well over there!
Dec 2nd 2009, 5:27 pm
#32
ex-expat
Joined: Nov 2008
Location: in front of my computer - in sunny Sussex!
Posts: 2,162
Re: Bet this has gone down well over there!
Church bells are not unpleasant to hear to be honest - musical and the engineering to get those huge bells up in the spires in the middle ages was impressive.
However I would support a limiting of church bells...but not a complete ban because they form part of our heritage and history. I am an athiest yet I love to visit old churches because of their beauty and charm. They form part of my history...the same as stone henge or the houses of parliament.
Banning all religion won't work because we'll probably end up with the state as our religion like the Soviets had or North Korea does today. Better to just constitutionally seperate the two in no uncertain terms - make it clear religion will have no special treatment, tax free status or money from taxpayers. All religious schools should be banned though - people who want to brainwash children should be limited to sunday school or the equivalent. Ban all religious dress and symbols in courts, the military and places of governance and schooling and be done with it.
N.
However I would support a limiting of church bells...but not a complete ban because they form part of our heritage and history. I am an athiest yet I love to visit old churches because of their beauty and charm. They form part of my history...the same as stone henge or the houses of parliament.
Banning all religion won't work because we'll probably end up with the state as our religion like the Soviets had or North Korea does today. Better to just constitutionally seperate the two in no uncertain terms - make it clear religion will have no special treatment, tax free status or money from taxpayers. All religious schools should be banned though - people who want to brainwash children should be limited to sunday school or the equivalent. Ban all religious dress and symbols in courts, the military and places of governance and schooling and be done with it.
N.
The big English churches were built off the back of the prosperous wool-trade, tiny, but beautiful synagogues in Cordoba speak of a people trying to hang on to their identity in troubled times... what message do you think castrated mosques will say about a so-called modern, tolerant society?
As for the second part of your comment - France has done just that for slightly over 150 years. State and religion are completely separated, even though it is still a fairly religious population. No religious education, no assemblies and no religious dress is allowed in state schools. Private religious schools do exist though. Also Protestant churches are called "Temples"... most of my school friends (I went to school in a rural area of France - the first foreigner and first non-catholic many had ever seen) didn't know there was any other form of Christianity than Catholicism, but hey... most only did their Confirmation to get lots of presents.
I digress...
Last edited by Hello.Kitty; Dec 2nd 2009 at 6:43 pm. Reason: a bit of clarification needed!
Dec 2nd 2009, 6:24 pm
#33
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: May 2009
Location: Dubai
Posts: 5,965
Re: Bet this has gone down well over there!
I had a conversation at work today between myself (britsh atheist), one devout muslim, one hindu and another not so devout muslim.
rather than banning things why can't everyone just accept that everyone is different? How can we expect all the hatred and racism to end when people are divided by who they pray to? Whether you be Muslim, Hindu, Catholic, Christian or Jewish surely we should be able to accept each other for individuals rather than sticking people into a religious shaped pigeon hole.
Personally I like to live in a melting pot of cultures and am always interested in learning the histories of various cultures, it is lack of education and underdstanding that keeps breeding the racist hatred that is so current. I think its a very sad state of affairs when in Western countries people are so closed minded that we are unable to embrace each other no matter what their religion.
For religious individuals the significance of symbols is important- as much as the crucifix to a christian. If a muslim finds a minaret symbolic to their religion why should they be denied that just because a more than likely uneducated population encouraged by a narrowminded voice( more than likely press) has become digruntled by it. Personally i believe this is a step closer to finding religious segregation acceptable within a community. Surely life for everyone would be so much better if we could all get along together and accept we all have different beliefs and neither one or the other is right or wrong, its just a personel preference.
It seems we are far from Eutopia.
A big step backwards in my opinion.
KC
rather than banning things why can't everyone just accept that everyone is different? How can we expect all the hatred and racism to end when people are divided by who they pray to? Whether you be Muslim, Hindu, Catholic, Christian or Jewish surely we should be able to accept each other for individuals rather than sticking people into a religious shaped pigeon hole.
Personally I like to live in a melting pot of cultures and am always interested in learning the histories of various cultures, it is lack of education and underdstanding that keeps breeding the racist hatred that is so current. I think its a very sad state of affairs when in Western countries people are so closed minded that we are unable to embrace each other no matter what their religion.
For religious individuals the significance of symbols is important- as much as the crucifix to a christian. If a muslim finds a minaret symbolic to their religion why should they be denied that just because a more than likely uneducated population encouraged by a narrowminded voice( more than likely press) has become digruntled by it. Personally i believe this is a step closer to finding religious segregation acceptable within a community. Surely life for everyone would be so much better if we could all get along together and accept we all have different beliefs and neither one or the other is right or wrong, its just a personel preference.
It seems we are far from Eutopia.
A big step backwards in my opinion.
KC
Last edited by kittycat1; Dec 2nd 2009 at 6:27 pm.
Dec 3rd 2009, 2:06 am
#34
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Thread Starter
Joined: Jun 2007
Location: Dubai
Posts: 13,547
Re: Bet this has gone down well over there!
I had a conversation at work today between myself (britsh atheist), one devout muslim, one hindu and another not so devout muslim.
rather than banning things why can't everyone just accept that everyone is different? How can we expect all the hatred and racism to end when people are divided by who they pray to? Whether you be Muslim, Hindu, Catholic, Christian or Jewish surely we should be able to accept each other for individuals rather than sticking people into a religious shaped pigeon hole.
Personally I like to live in a melting pot of cultures and am always interested in learning the histories of various cultures, it is lack of education and underdstanding that keeps breeding the racist hatred that is so current. I think its a very sad state of affairs when in Western countries people are so closed minded that we are unable to embrace each other no matter what their religion.
For religious individuals the significance of symbols is important- as much as the crucifix to a christian. If a muslim finds a minaret symbolic to their religion why should they be denied that just because a more than likely uneducated population encouraged by a narrowminded voice( more than likely press) has become digruntled by it. Personally i believe this is a step closer to finding religious segregation acceptable within a community. Surely life for everyone would be so much better if we could all get along together and accept we all have different beliefs and neither one or the other is right or wrong, its just a personel preference.
It seems we are far from Eutopia.
A big step backwards in my opinion.
KC
rather than banning things why can't everyone just accept that everyone is different? How can we expect all the hatred and racism to end when people are divided by who they pray to? Whether you be Muslim, Hindu, Catholic, Christian or Jewish surely we should be able to accept each other for individuals rather than sticking people into a religious shaped pigeon hole.
Personally I like to live in a melting pot of cultures and am always interested in learning the histories of various cultures, it is lack of education and underdstanding that keeps breeding the racist hatred that is so current. I think its a very sad state of affairs when in Western countries people are so closed minded that we are unable to embrace each other no matter what their religion.
For religious individuals the significance of symbols is important- as much as the crucifix to a christian. If a muslim finds a minaret symbolic to their religion why should they be denied that just because a more than likely uneducated population encouraged by a narrowminded voice( more than likely press) has become digruntled by it. Personally i believe this is a step closer to finding religious segregation acceptable within a community. Surely life for everyone would be so much better if we could all get along together and accept we all have different beliefs and neither one or the other is right or wrong, its just a personel preference.
It seems we are far from Eutopia.
A big step backwards in my opinion.
KC
Singapore is full of Mosques as it has a significant Muslim population (mainly Malays and Indonesians). the vast majority do not have Minarets.
Nobody is stopping them building mosques in Switzerland.
Dec 3rd 2009, 9:31 am
#35
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Joined: Apr 2007
Location: Doha, Qatar
Posts: 2,675
Re: Bet this has gone down well over there!
I had a conversation at work today between myself (britsh atheist), one devout muslim, one hindu and another not so devout muslim.
rather than banning things why can't everyone just accept that everyone is different? How can we expect all the hatred and racism to end when people are divided by who they pray to? Whether you be Muslim, Hindu, Catholic, Christian or Jewish surely we should be able to accept each other for individuals rather than sticking people into a religious shaped pigeon hole.
Personally I like to live in a melting pot of cultures and am always interested in learning the histories of various cultures, it is lack of education and underdstanding that keeps breeding the racist hatred that is so current. I think its a very sad state of affairs when in Western countries people are so closed minded that we are unable to embrace each other no matter what their religion.
For religious individuals the significance of symbols is important- as much as the crucifix to a christian. If a muslim finds a minaret symbolic to their religion why should they be denied that just because a more than likely uneducated population encouraged by a narrowminded voice( more than likely press) has become digruntled by it. Personally i believe this is a step closer to finding religious segregation acceptable within a community. Surely life for everyone would be so much better if we could all get along together and accept we all have different beliefs and neither one or the other is right or wrong, its just a personel preference.
It seems we are far from Eutopia.
A big step backwards in my opinion.
KC
rather than banning things why can't everyone just accept that everyone is different? How can we expect all the hatred and racism to end when people are divided by who they pray to? Whether you be Muslim, Hindu, Catholic, Christian or Jewish surely we should be able to accept each other for individuals rather than sticking people into a religious shaped pigeon hole.
Personally I like to live in a melting pot of cultures and am always interested in learning the histories of various cultures, it is lack of education and underdstanding that keeps breeding the racist hatred that is so current. I think its a very sad state of affairs when in Western countries people are so closed minded that we are unable to embrace each other no matter what their religion.
For religious individuals the significance of symbols is important- as much as the crucifix to a christian. If a muslim finds a minaret symbolic to their religion why should they be denied that just because a more than likely uneducated population encouraged by a narrowminded voice( more than likely press) has become digruntled by it. Personally i believe this is a step closer to finding religious segregation acceptable within a community. Surely life for everyone would be so much better if we could all get along together and accept we all have different beliefs and neither one or the other is right or wrong, its just a personel preference.
It seems we are far from Eutopia.
A big step backwards in my opinion.
KC
I also think the West has been tolerant and accepting,to the point that PC has taken over to an almost ridiculous amount.
Maybe having lived in the ME has opened my eyes to the point that I am less and less tolerant....oh geez, one wonders why...
Dec 3rd 2009, 10:35 am
#36
Excess Baggage
Joined: Jul 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 5,479
Re: Bet this has gone down well over there!
I'd like to emphasize BOTH or better said ALL have to be tolerant and accepting.
I also think the West has been tolerant and accepting,to the point that PC has taken over to an almost ridiculous amount.
Maybe having lived in the ME has opened my eyes to the point that I am less and less tolerant....oh geez, one wonders why...
I also think the West has been tolerant and accepting,to the point that PC has taken over to an almost ridiculous amount.
Maybe having lived in the ME has opened my eyes to the point that I am less and less tolerant....oh geez, one wonders why...
Dec 3rd 2009, 12:31 pm
#37
ex-expat
Joined: Nov 2008
Location: in front of my computer - in sunny Sussex!
Posts: 2,162
Re: Bet this has gone down well over there!
I'd like to emphasize BOTH or better said ALL have to be tolerant and accepting.
I also think the West has been tolerant and accepting,to the point that PC has taken over to an almost ridiculous amount.
Maybe having lived in the ME has opened my eyes to the point that I am less and less tolerant....oh geez, one wonders why...
I also think the West has been tolerant and accepting,to the point that PC has taken over to an almost ridiculous amount.
Maybe having lived in the ME has opened my eyes to the point that I am less and less tolerant....oh geez, one wonders why...
When I was in London, they'd send me an ethnicity form for renewing my parking permit - I mean, wtf has ethnicity got to do with a parking space?! The first year I gave them a brief(ish) paragraph on my ancestry (file that, suckers!) and second year, crossed the form out and put "no change since last year".
Dec 3rd 2009, 1:16 pm
#38
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Posts: 2,675
Re: Bet this has gone down well over there!
PC isn't being tolerant though - I feel it actually emphasises intolerance by creating "positive discrimination". Real tolerance would be to simply not give a monkeys and let people get on with it.
When I was in London, they'd send me an ethnicity form for renewing my parking permit - I mean, wtf has ethnicity got to do with a parking space?! The first year I gave them a brief(ish) paragraph on my ancestry (file that, suckers!) and second year, crossed the form out and put "no change since last year".
When I was in London, they'd send me an ethnicity form for renewing my parking permit - I mean, wtf has ethnicity got to do with a parking space?! The first year I gave them a brief(ish) paragraph on my ancestry (file that, suckers!) and second year, crossed the form out and put "no change since last year".
)And then throwing your dummy out of the pram was a good way to get even more? And if that was not the case, how about crying "racism " or "discrimination" ?
And our "respected " leaders in their little ivory towers fearing bad rep or press if they do not comply......ah yes, the rightwingers are laughing,getting more powerful by the day . Who's fault is that? lol
Tell you what I think...if the ones making the laws would actually have to live with them, they a. would NEVER come to pass or there would only be rightwing politicians...
Dec 3rd 2009, 3:23 pm
#39
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Location: Utopia
Posts: 1,644
Re: Bet this has gone down well over there!
Never be so tolerant that you tolerate intolerance.
Dec 3rd 2009, 5:16 pm
#41
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Re: Bet this has gone down well over there!
Alexa- what is this mysterious PC that haunts your days?
Dec 3rd 2009, 7:42 pm
#44
ex-expat
Joined: Nov 2008
Location: in front of my computer - in sunny Sussex!
Posts: 2,162
Re: Bet this has gone down well over there!
Question is, how has all the "PC ness" come to exist? Because tolerance was not enough for some? Because living in a democratic country all of a sudden has given way to 'overindulge" ? (note, I did not use the term abuse )
And then throwing your dummy out of the pram was a good way to get even more? And if that was not the case, how about crying "racism " or "discrimination" ?
And our "respected " leaders in their little ivory towers fearing bad rep or press if they do not comply......ah yes, the rightwingers are laughing,getting more powerful by the day . Who's fault is that? lol
Tell you what I think...if the ones making the laws would actually have to live with them, they a. would NEVER come to pass or there would only be rightwing politicians...
)And then throwing your dummy out of the pram was a good way to get even more? And if that was not the case, how about crying "racism " or "discrimination" ?
And our "respected " leaders in their little ivory towers fearing bad rep or press if they do not comply......ah yes, the rightwingers are laughing,getting more powerful by the day . Who's fault is that? lol
Tell you what I think...if the ones making the laws would actually have to live with them, they a. would NEVER come to pass or there would only be rightwing politicians...
They haven't quite understood that those issues will pass away with them, if only they stopped creating more means of comparison. I'd venture so far to say that [educated] people of my generation hardly blink at the kind of difference that is highlighted by our anti-discrimination laws.
Of course, on the other side, well, if something totally legal was out there that put you in a preferential position/ free money/ extra perks/ extra protection... well... can you honestly say you wouldn't use it to your own ends?
Dec 3rd 2009, 7:52 pm
#45
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 7,646
Re: Bet this has gone down well over there!
I'm agnostic so I suppose in some peoples' eyes that makes me weak but I do my own thing,live my life by my own code.
My code is simple. Live and let live and...it's nice to be nice, it costs you nothing.
My code is simple. Live and let live and...it's nice to be nice, it costs you nothing.