Welfare State Britain
#16
Lost in Space
Joined: Oct 2009
Location: Stockport, Cheshire, UK
Posts: 804
Re: Welfare State Britain
When you listen to/watch coverage of the US public's response to the proposed idea of eligibility for health care for everyone, you realise the good side to the UK's NHS and wellfare system. In the States, there is very much a mentality of "I go to work for a living, "they" can get a job if they want, and pay for health care, why should my taxes have to pay for "their" health care (welfare check, etc.)?" BBC was showing interviews from US this week showing exactly that sort of attitude. The UK NHS is portrayed as a "socialist" system, derided as being quasi-Communist, etc., by the anti Health Care bill crowd.
Ironic, then, that the poem on the Statue of Liberty includes the phrase, "Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, ..." etc., from the poem "The Colossus".
Yes, we should take care of those who can't take care of themselves and who are unable to find a job, or unable to work through illness or disability. And yes, there are multi-generational welfare families who have learned helplessness.
But no, we shouldn't be subsidizing the work-shy, lazy and shiftless, and they do exist ... forget statistics, just open your eyes, they're there. Acknowledging their existence doesn't make you a sensationalist or Daily Mail reader, it just makes you a realist.
p.s. I worked in what used to be called the "Dole Office" many moons ago and there were plenty of people back then making fraudulent claims, I doubt anything has improved. Blaming the system for people's dishonesty and laziness is a cop-out. What about personal responsibility?
Ironic, then, that the poem on the Statue of Liberty includes the phrase, "Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, ..." etc., from the poem "The Colossus".
Yes, we should take care of those who can't take care of themselves and who are unable to find a job, or unable to work through illness or disability. And yes, there are multi-generational welfare families who have learned helplessness.
But no, we shouldn't be subsidizing the work-shy, lazy and shiftless, and they do exist ... forget statistics, just open your eyes, they're there. Acknowledging their existence doesn't make you a sensationalist or Daily Mail reader, it just makes you a realist.
p.s. I worked in what used to be called the "Dole Office" many moons ago and there were plenty of people back then making fraudulent claims, I doubt anything has improved. Blaming the system for people's dishonesty and laziness is a cop-out. What about personal responsibility?
#17
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Joined: May 2005
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Re: Welfare State Britain
Maslow actually is the framework to understand the behaviour. The system is not extremely weak and there are not huge numbers of false claimants. There are huge numbers of claimants - but even if they are claimants because they do not want to work they may still be legitimate claimants because they don't have enough money. There are checks and balances to prevent false claims but the only way to make them foolproof is to spend a lot more money on the process.
Last edited by Pollyana; Jan 24th 2010 at 3:08 pm. Reason: fixing the quotes so correctly attributed
#18
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Re: Welfare State Britain
Maslow actually is the framework to understand the behaviour. The system is not extremely weak and there are not huge numbers of false claimants. There are huge numbers of claimants - but even if they are claimants because they do not want to work they may still be legitimate claimants because they don't have enough money. There are checks and balances to prevent false claims but the only way to make them foolproof is to spend a lot more money on the process.
I think if you went to a Benefits Office and asked them this, they would agree (IMHO)
Last edited by Pollyana; Jan 24th 2010 at 3:08 pm. Reason: fixing the quotes so correctly attributed
#19
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Joined: May 2008
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Posts: 1,507
Re: Welfare State Britain
You have missed the point - as you seem to do. I doubt that people who don't really want to work would not express this to the 'Benefits Office' (sic). I also think that it is a reasonable condition to desire a life without work - albeit with the consequences. I admit that I do not know the exact number of claimants but I assume that most of them are genuine with just the same conviction that some idiots think the majority are not genuine.
Last edited by Pollyana; Jan 24th 2010 at 3:08 pm. Reason: fixing the quotes so correctly attributed
#20
Re: Welfare State Britain
Would you guys quit using double negatives? I don't got no idea what you ain't trying to say!!!!
#21
Re: Welfare State Britain
You have missed the point - as you seem to do. I doubt that people who don't really want to work would not express this to the 'Benefits Office' (sic). I also think that it is a reasonable condition to desire a life without work - albeit with the consequences. I admit that I do not know the exact number of claimants but I assume that most of them are genuine with just the same conviction that some idiots think the majority are not genuine.
What is the purpose of Job Seekers Allowance if it's not for supporting people who are seeking jobs?
(Crap, you've got me mis-using the not word now)
- and stop screwing up the quotes!
Last edited by dunroving; Jan 23rd 2010 at 8:04 pm.
#22
Re: Welfare State Britain
Just a couple of points on buying a house on benefits/furnishing a house from benefits.
Mortgage assistance has never paid for capital repayments. It's only ever been interest only. Capital would never reduce unless it was pretty low to begin with and you somehow paid it off from usually modest benefits.
Of course, some may have bought council houses with the big discounts but that would still need capital repayments to come from somewhere; benefits wouldn't cover it.
Very few people qualify for grants for furniture; mostly those returning to the community after some sort of period in an institution or to help people stay in the community and a relative handful of others. For anyone else it's loans.
Whether grants or loans it's only basic stuff allowed for.
There is, of course, huge abuse and it's not just obvious fiddles like undeclared income or falsely alleging non receipt of benefit. I dont know how much it's changed since I left 5 years ago, but there was always a limit to the amount of money a person could owe in loans to DSS/DWP. It was £1000 and a strange quirk meant that limit applied per person or per couple. If one of a couple owed so much that further borrowing wasn't possible without exceeding the limit, couples would "separate" so that one without the debt would apply for another loan. And get it.
Then they'd "get back together" once they spent the loan....or maintain their fraudulent 'single' claims.
Much of these "loans" will, of course, never get paid off.
Mortgage assistance has never paid for capital repayments. It's only ever been interest only. Capital would never reduce unless it was pretty low to begin with and you somehow paid it off from usually modest benefits.
Of course, some may have bought council houses with the big discounts but that would still need capital repayments to come from somewhere; benefits wouldn't cover it.
Very few people qualify for grants for furniture; mostly those returning to the community after some sort of period in an institution or to help people stay in the community and a relative handful of others. For anyone else it's loans.
Whether grants or loans it's only basic stuff allowed for.
There is, of course, huge abuse and it's not just obvious fiddles like undeclared income or falsely alleging non receipt of benefit. I dont know how much it's changed since I left 5 years ago, but there was always a limit to the amount of money a person could owe in loans to DSS/DWP. It was £1000 and a strange quirk meant that limit applied per person or per couple. If one of a couple owed so much that further borrowing wasn't possible without exceeding the limit, couples would "separate" so that one without the debt would apply for another loan. And get it.
Then they'd "get back together" once they spent the loan....or maintain their fraudulent 'single' claims.
Much of these "loans" will, of course, never get paid off.
#23
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Re: Welfare State Britain
You have missed the point - as you seem to do. I doubt that people who don't really want to work would not express this to the 'Benefits Office' (sic). I also think that it is a reasonable condition to desire a life without work - albeit with the consequences. I admit that I do not know the exact number of claimants but I assume that most of them are genuine with just the same conviction that some idiots think the majority are not genuine.
I didn't say the majority are not genuine, and neither did anybody else. I was actually asking how many as a 'genuine' question as you seemed to be talking with some conviction.
And I guess anybody who thinks differently to you is an 'idiot'. Not very nice as nobody has been directly insulting to you.
My comment came from what you said -
'but even if they are claimants because they do not want to work they may still be legitimate claimants because they don't have enough money'.
Not as clear as you might think. To me this sounds like you are saying they are legitimate because they don't have enough money as a result of not working, and they are not working because they don't want to........ or am missing the point again!
Try not to get abusive, it's not nice.
Last edited by Pollyana; Jan 24th 2010 at 3:09 pm. Reason: fixing the quotes so correctly attributed
#24
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Re: Welfare State Britain
Just a couple of points on buying a house on benefits/furnishing a house from benefits.
Mortgage assistance has never paid for capital repayments. It's only ever been interest only. Capital would never reduce unless it was pretty low to begin with and you somehow paid it off from usually modest benefits.
Of course, some may have bought council houses with the big discounts but that would still need capital repayments to come from somewhere; benefits wouldn't cover it.
Very few people qualify for grants for furniture; mostly those returning to the community after some sort of period in an institution or to help people stay in the community and a relative handful of others. For anyone else it's loans.
Whether grants or loans it's only basic stuff allowed for.
There is, of course, huge abuse and it's not just obvious fiddles like undeclared income or falsely alleging non receipt of benefit.
Much of these "loans" will, of course, never get paid off.
Mortgage assistance has never paid for capital repayments. It's only ever been interest only. Capital would never reduce unless it was pretty low to begin with and you somehow paid it off from usually modest benefits.
Of course, some may have bought council houses with the big discounts but that would still need capital repayments to come from somewhere; benefits wouldn't cover it.
Very few people qualify for grants for furniture; mostly those returning to the community after some sort of period in an institution or to help people stay in the community and a relative handful of others. For anyone else it's loans.
Whether grants or loans it's only basic stuff allowed for.
There is, of course, huge abuse and it's not just obvious fiddles like undeclared income or falsely alleging non receipt of benefit.
Much of these "loans" will, of course, never get paid off.
Yes, the daughter got a loan and never repaid it. She bought furniture with this. Basic stuff or not, she didnt actually pay for it.
Like you say, people will work their way round the system if they want to, and these people did, and still do.
#25
Re: Welfare State Britain
This is exactly how she paid for it. She had lived in the house on benefits for a long time, got a large reduction and paid for it from her benefits and her son's benefits (whilst her son also worked as a cash in hand taxi driver).
Yes, the daughter got a loan and never repaid it. She bought furniture with this. Basic stuff or not, she didnt actually pay for it.
Like you say, people will work their way round the system if they want to, and these people did, and still do.
Yes, the daughter got a loan and never repaid it. She bought furniture with this. Basic stuff or not, she didnt actually pay for it.
Like you say, people will work their way round the system if they want to, and these people did, and still do.
#26
Lost in Space
Joined: Oct 2009
Location: Stockport, Cheshire, UK
Posts: 804
Re: Welfare State Britain
And in BC. Many people work but only for 6 months of the year. They do tree planting, work in the oil sands off in Alberta....earn crazy amounts of money and come employment insurance for the rest of the year. It's a life style. Not one professionals could ever do though!
#27
Re: Welfare State Britain
I presume that was directed at the other guy? [/QUOTE]
Absolutely! My apologies if you thought otherwise, even if only briefly.
I also agree wholeheartedly with your view that using Maslow is looking too deeply into the situation. To my mind Maslow indicates some complexity to the scenario, whereas this is nothing more than sponging lazy bastards.
Absolutely! My apologies if you thought otherwise, even if only briefly.
I also agree wholeheartedly with your view that using Maslow is looking too deeply into the situation. To my mind Maslow indicates some complexity to the scenario, whereas this is nothing more than sponging lazy bastards.
#28
Re: Welfare State Britain
Absolutely! My apologies if you thought otherwise, even if only briefly.
I also agree wholeheartedly with your view that using Maslow is looking too deeply into the situation. To my mind Maslow indicates some complexity to the scenario, whereas this is nothing more than sponging lazy bastards.
I also agree wholeheartedly with your view that using Maslow is looking too deeply into the situation. To my mind Maslow indicates some complexity to the scenario, whereas this is nothing more than sponging lazy bastards.
#29
Lost in Space
Joined: Oct 2009
Location: Stockport, Cheshire, UK
Posts: 804
Re: Welfare State Britain
Which is explained in Shirker's (2010) SLB Theory.
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Neither here nor there
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Neither here nor there
#30
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Joined: Apr 2004
Location: CHELTENHAM, Gloucestershire, England
Posts: 1,494
Re: Welfare State Britain
2nd generation? Try 3rd or even 4th generation now taking into account teen mums and feckless fathers stoned on alcopops and crack.
Broken Britannia indeed, as seen so vividly in Edlington this past week.