Welfare State Britain

Old Jan 23rd 2010, 3:47 pm
  #16  
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Default Re: Welfare State Britain

Originally Posted by dunroving
When you listen to/watch coverage of the US public's response to the proposed idea of eligibility for health care for everyone, you realise the good side to the UK's NHS and wellfare system. In the States, there is very much a mentality of "I go to work for a living, "they" can get a job if they want, and pay for health care, why should my taxes have to pay for "their" health care (welfare check, etc.)?" BBC was showing interviews from US this week showing exactly that sort of attitude. The UK NHS is portrayed as a "socialist" system, derided as being quasi-Communist, etc., by the anti Health Care bill crowd.

Ironic, then, that the poem on the Statue of Liberty includes the phrase, "Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, ..." etc., from the poem "The Colossus".

Yes, we should take care of those who can't take care of themselves and who are unable to find a job, or unable to work through illness or disability. And yes, there are multi-generational welfare families who have learned helplessness.

But no, we shouldn't be subsidizing the work-shy, lazy and shiftless, and they do exist ... forget statistics, just open your eyes, they're there. Acknowledging their existence doesn't make you a sensationalist or Daily Mail reader, it just makes you a realist.

p.s. I worked in what used to be called the "Dole Office" many moons ago and there were plenty of people back then making fraudulent claims, I doubt anything has improved. Blaming the system for people's dishonesty and laziness is a cop-out. What about personal responsibility?
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Old Jan 23rd 2010, 3:48 pm
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Default Re: Welfare State Britain

Originally Posted by Bijilo123

Maslow actually is the framework to understand the behaviour. The system is not extremely weak and there are not huge numbers of false claimants. There are huge numbers of claimants - but even if they are claimants because they do not want to work they may still be legitimate claimants because they don't have enough money. There are checks and balances to prevent false claims but the only way to make them foolproof is to spend a lot more money on the process.
How do you know this?

Last edited by Pollyana; Jan 24th 2010 at 3:08 pm. Reason: fixing the quotes so correctly attributed
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Old Jan 23rd 2010, 3:51 pm
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Default Re: Welfare State Britain

Originally Posted by Bijilo123

Maslow actually is the framework to understand the behaviour. The system is not extremely weak and there are not huge numbers of false claimants. There are huge numbers of claimants - but even if they are claimants because they do not want to work they may still be legitimate claimants because they don't have enough money. There are checks and balances to prevent false claims but the only way to make them foolproof is to spend a lot more money on the process.
Not wanting to work is not a legitimate reason for having the right to claim benefits.

I think if you went to a Benefits Office and asked them this, they would agree (IMHO)

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Old Jan 23rd 2010, 7:30 pm
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Default Re: Welfare State Britain

Originally Posted by Victor Meldrew
Not wanting to work is not a legitimate reason for having the right to claim benefits.

I think if you went to a Benefits Office and asked them this, they would agree (IMHO)
You have missed the point - as you seem to do. I doubt that people who don't really want to work would not express this to the 'Benefits Office' (sic). I also think that it is a reasonable condition to desire a life without work - albeit with the consequences. I admit that I do not know the exact number of claimants but I assume that most of them are genuine with just the same conviction that some idiots think the majority are not genuine.

Last edited by Pollyana; Jan 24th 2010 at 3:08 pm. Reason: fixing the quotes so correctly attributed
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Old Jan 23rd 2010, 7:35 pm
  #20  
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Default Re: Welfare State Britain

Would you guys quit using double negatives? I don't got no idea what you ain't trying to say!!!!
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Old Jan 23rd 2010, 7:38 pm
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Default Re: Welfare State Britain

Originally Posted by Bijilo123
You have missed the point - as you seem to do. I doubt that people who don't really want to work would not express this to the 'Benefits Office' (sic). I also think that it is a reasonable condition to desire a life without work - albeit with the consequences. I admit that I do not know the exact number of claimants but I assume that most of them are genuine with just the same conviction that some idiots think the majority are not genuine.
And what happens when we all decide we don't want to work, but we do want to get paid for not working?

What is the purpose of Job Seekers Allowance if it's not for supporting people who are seeking jobs?

(Crap, you've got me mis-using the not word now)

- and stop screwing up the quotes!

Last edited by dunroving; Jan 23rd 2010 at 8:04 pm.
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Old Jan 23rd 2010, 8:01 pm
  #22  
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Default Re: Welfare State Britain

Just a couple of points on buying a house on benefits/furnishing a house from benefits.

Mortgage assistance has never paid for capital repayments. It's only ever been interest only. Capital would never reduce unless it was pretty low to begin with and you somehow paid it off from usually modest benefits.

Of course, some may have bought council houses with the big discounts but that would still need capital repayments to come from somewhere; benefits wouldn't cover it.

Very few people qualify for grants for furniture; mostly those returning to the community after some sort of period in an institution or to help people stay in the community and a relative handful of others. For anyone else it's loans.

Whether grants or loans it's only basic stuff allowed for.

There is, of course, huge abuse and it's not just obvious fiddles like undeclared income or falsely alleging non receipt of benefit. I dont know how much it's changed since I left 5 years ago, but there was always a limit to the amount of money a person could owe in loans to DSS/DWP. It was £1000 and a strange quirk meant that limit applied per person or per couple. If one of a couple owed so much that further borrowing wasn't possible without exceeding the limit, couples would "separate" so that one without the debt would apply for another loan. And get it.

Then they'd "get back together" once they spent the loan....or maintain their fraudulent 'single' claims.

Much of these "loans" will, of course, never get paid off.
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Old Jan 24th 2010, 1:26 am
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Default Re: Welfare State Britain

Originally Posted by Bijilo123

You have missed the point - as you seem to do. I doubt that people who don't really want to work would not express this to the 'Benefits Office' (sic). I also think that it is a reasonable condition to desire a life without work - albeit with the consequences. I admit that I do not know the exact number of claimants but I assume that most of them are genuine with just the same conviction that some idiots think the majority are not genuine.
Perhaps that's because you don't explain yourself clearly, or don't realise what you have said (see it's easy being rude - anybody can do it).

I didn't say the majority are not genuine, and neither did anybody else. I was actually asking how many as a 'genuine' question as you seemed to be talking with some conviction.

And I guess anybody who thinks differently to you is an 'idiot'. Not very nice as nobody has been directly insulting to you.

My comment came from what you said -

'but even if they are claimants because they do not want to work they may still be legitimate claimants because they don't have enough money'.

Not as clear as you might think. To me this sounds like you are saying they are legitimate because they don't have enough money as a result of not working, and they are not working because they don't want to........ or am missing the point again!

Try not to get abusive, it's not nice.

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Old Jan 24th 2010, 1:31 am
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Default Re: Welfare State Britain

Originally Posted by BristolUK
Just a couple of points on buying a house on benefits/furnishing a house from benefits.

Mortgage assistance has never paid for capital repayments. It's only ever been interest only. Capital would never reduce unless it was pretty low to begin with and you somehow paid it off from usually modest benefits.

Of course, some may have bought council houses with the big discounts but that would still need capital repayments to come from somewhere; benefits wouldn't cover it.

Very few people qualify for grants for furniture; mostly those returning to the community after some sort of period in an institution or to help people stay in the community and a relative handful of others. For anyone else it's loans.

Whether grants or loans it's only basic stuff allowed for.


There is, of course, huge abuse and it's not just obvious fiddles like undeclared income or falsely alleging non receipt of benefit.

Much of these "loans" will, of course, never get paid off.
This is exactly how she paid for it. She had lived in the house on benefits for a long time, got a large reduction and paid for it from her benefits and her son's benefits (whilst her son also worked as a cash in hand taxi driver).

Yes, the daughter got a loan and never repaid it. She bought furniture with this. Basic stuff or not, she didnt actually pay for it.

Like you say, people will work their way round the system if they want to, and these people did, and still do.
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Old Jan 24th 2010, 3:45 am
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Default Re: Welfare State Britain

Originally Posted by Victor Meldrew
This is exactly how she paid for it. She had lived in the house on benefits for a long time, got a large reduction and paid for it from her benefits and her son's benefits (whilst her son also worked as a cash in hand taxi driver).

Yes, the daughter got a loan and never repaid it. She bought furniture with this. Basic stuff or not, she didnt actually pay for it.

Like you say, people will work their way round the system if they want to, and these people did, and still do.
We have families here who do the same, no idea how, but they manage it generation after generation. So it goes on everywhere. they live their whole lives without holding a job and yet they seem fine with it.
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Old Jan 24th 2010, 8:12 am
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Default Re: Welfare State Britain

Originally Posted by Mummy in the foothills
We have families here who do the same, no idea how, but they manage it generation after generation. So it goes on everywhere. they live their whole lives without holding a job and yet they seem fine with it.
And in BC. Many people work but only for 6 months of the year. They do tree planting, work in the oil sands off in Alberta....earn crazy amounts of money and come employment insurance for the rest of the year. It's a life style. Not one professionals could ever do though!
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Old Jan 24th 2010, 11:10 am
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Default Re: Welfare State Britain

I presume that was directed at the other guy? [/QUOTE]

Absolutely! My apologies if you thought otherwise, even if only briefly.

I also agree wholeheartedly with your view that using Maslow is looking too deeply into the situation. To my mind Maslow indicates some complexity to the scenario, whereas this is nothing more than sponging lazy bastards.
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Old Jan 24th 2010, 11:16 am
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Default Re: Welfare State Britain

Originally Posted by NikiL
Absolutely! My apologies if you thought otherwise, even if only briefly.

I also agree wholeheartedly with your view that using Maslow is looking too deeply into the situation. To my mind Maslow indicates some complexity to the scenario, whereas this is nothing more than sponging lazy bastards.
Which is explained in Shirker's (2010) SLB Theory.
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Old Jan 24th 2010, 1:07 pm
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Default Re: Welfare State Britain

Which is explained in Shirker's (2010) SLB Theory.
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Old Jan 24th 2010, 3:00 pm
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Default Re: Welfare State Britain

Originally Posted by Victor Meldrew
Now I know (at least I think I do) that on the whole being on benefits does not give you a lavish and luxurious lifestyle.


There seem to be a section of people, even 2nd generation now living their whole life on benefits by choice as it is easier than working.
Lavish style? Many of the people on benefits have every kind of convenience in their homes from multi channel flat screen satellite TVs, computers, all sorts of digital hi tec equipment, double glazing, fully fitted kitchens, and a whole range of stuff which at one time really would have been considered "lavish luxury". Many have plenty of dosh left over for booze and cigs.

2nd generation? Try 3rd or even 4th generation now taking into account teen mums and feckless fathers stoned on alcopops and crack.

Broken Britannia indeed, as seen so vividly in Edlington this past week.
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