Welfare State Britain
 

Ok, I'm up and had my coffee, it's the weekend and I am firmly back in 'Grumpy old Men' mode (it's what I do best!).

I have enjoyed the 'Nanny State Britain' thread and thought I woujld go another step with this one.

The UK Welfare State was initially put into place in order for the majority to help look after the minority who, through no fault of their own, needed financial and other assistance to help them lead, at least, a reasonable existence.

Fair do's

Now I know (at least I think I do) that on the whole being on benefits does not give you a lavish and luxurious lifestyle.

I also (think I) know that there are many (maybe a majority of?) people who would rather not be on benefits, and that there are many problems with being on benefits, including the effects it has on ones morale. This rant is not aimed at such people

Is it me, or does it now seem that the whole thing has got out of hand.

There seem to be a section of people, even 2nd generation now living their whole life on benefits by choice as it is easier than working.

I know of at least one family whose father (unmarried, in his late fifties) has never worked since the 1970's (well not legally) and has his house, his car and his income provided for by the taxpayer. His daughter, a single mother, has a flat, furniture and income paid for her. His Mum has not worked since her late 40's and bought her council house with the benefits she was given. Her house is now worth around £125k and she never paid a penny for it.

On the other hand, if you work hard to earn a crust, buy your own house, and provide your own savings for your retirement, as well as paying your own pension fund, unless this is all used up, you cannot claim a thing.

Doesn't seem fair and right to me. Or am I seeing it wrong?

Rant over.

What do you think?

Re: Welfare State Britain
 

I think you are seeing it 'wrong' as you say. But you are quite right as to the purpose of the state welfare arrangements - they are to provide for those who cannot provide for themselves. The majority of people do not want to live on welfare and you are right that it will not enrich you to be on benefits, If however - and I invoke Maslow here (look it up), your needs are less than enrichment in the monetary sense then you can thrive on benefits and not work like the person you know who has not worked since the 70's. Brining them into the argument is irrelevant because they are a minority. We all know cases like that - except I don't, but some newspapers like to publicise them for the effect it creates, for example like your rant. This is a minority and represents an inneficiency in systems that, whilst unfortunate, can only be overcome by increased compliance and monitoring effort that would be costly and not really right. For every one person that may seem to be cheating the system or living perpetually on benefit there are many more who we would consider just cases.

If you do work then you are exactly in the camp that provides - it is not you personally that is providing, you and we are providing through taxes - funds to the state and they deal with it thereafter, some funding being set aside for weldare.

Your belief that a person who ceases to work will not get benefit is wrong. There is generally a threshold of about £16,000 of liquid assets and if you have more than that you get no cash benefit, lesas and you do.

Re: Welfare State Britain
 

Maslow as in 'Maslow's hierarchy of needs' right? I vaguely remember him.

Regards the family I mentioned, they are quite happy with their 'lot' and have no intention or desire to move from it.

I am just curious (as I have indicated in my original post) as I don't have concrete facts and figures, just experience of a number of people like those who I have used as an example to quote. I have (often in the past)frequented one community where this is the norm.

You say the person/family I have quoted are in the minority, correct? what do you base this on opinion or facts? also if they are a minority percentage wise, how many people like this do you think there are in actual numbers?

The threshold of £16000 might seem quite high, but if, for example I have spent 10 years saving £50,000 for my retirement and find that at 55 say, I become unemployed, it would disgruntle me greatly that I would have to spend this until it went down to £16,000 before I could claim help.

This is compounded by the fact I have seen others get something for nothing when in reality they too could have worked to attain the same situation.

I guess this comes across a knocking all those who are on benefits, but it isn't intended as such. It's just a frustration over those who you say, slip through the system and abuse it.:thumbdown:

Re: Welfare State Britain
 

As regards your justifiable challenge as to the number of undeserving claimants and fraudsters to legitimate ones the statistics are as follows:

Proportion of disingenuous claimants: 0%
Proportion of genuine claimants: 100%

OK so that is tongue in cheek - my point being that everyone has been processed and so if someone is getting an undeserved benefit then it is because of a weak system as well. And that, like a slightly damaged car is expensive to repair and maintain.

What I do see is lots of 50 year old men in town wearing down at heel clothes wandering without purpose with a shopping bag with not much in it and who used to have good jobs. I feel sorry for them because they might not survive this intact.

Your analysis of £16,000 is good. It will take a person about 6 years to save up £16,000 and about a year and a half to spend it. But the value of the benefit will be trivial until that sum is effectively exhausted.

Here is another calculation. How much money would you need to put in the Building Society at todays interest rates to get £5000 per annum for ever?

Answer - at a generous 2% the amount is £250,000. At 1 % it is half a million.

My point is that to fund £100 a week which is the state pension you need to have say £300,000 set aside by the state. Bearing in mind that the entitlement to pension arises after 30 years contributions then that means about £10,000 per annum. I recall that the contribution in my early days was £2.20 a week or about £100 per annum - a bit less than the £10,000 needed. Some people make an argumet which starts..' I've paid in all my life...'

Fine, but not enough.

We need more children with more jobs to fund this and the other benefits or we will lose them.

Re: Welfare State Britain
 

Aren't you living overseas?

Re: Welfare State Britain
 

No, I'm living here. It is impossible for me to be other than here.

Here is Essex, my home is in Gambia - I'm staying in the UK to look after my Dad who is very ancient, very ill and very much loved.

Re: Welfare State Britain
 

When I first came here I noticed that WAY more people here use walking sticks, zimmer frames and the like and those mobile scooters. And not necessarily older people either.

I remember my first day out shopping, waiting for my sister outside Asda and doing some people watching and I was gobsmacked!

I don't know if all of these people are genuinely unhealthier than in Australia or what the reason is...........

Re: Welfare State Britain
 

Would they get more/higher benefits if classed as disabled, or if they were physically unable to work? (he asked cynically!):sneaky:

Re: Welfare State Britain
 

Elementary my dear Watson :thumbup:

Re: Welfare State Britain
 

Or you have people like my stepsons mother who has stated in the past that she doesn't see why she should work if she doesn't wish to. The same woman who worked while claiming full benefits as a non worker, who then claimed legal aid for a child residency case as a non worker.

There are huge numbers of people like her, huge. They detract from the genuine numbers who need to claim benefits. The system is extremely weak, mainly because (I believe) from the sheer volume of numbers that require processing.

Please, don't be a pompous ass spouting Maslow.

Re: Welfare State Britain
 

[QUOTE=NikiL;8275283]Or you have people like my stepsons mother who has stated in the past that she doesn't see why she should work if she doesn't wish to. The same woman who worked while claiming full benefits as a non worker, who then claimed legal aid for a child residency case as a non worker.

There are huge numbers of people like her, huge. They detract from the genuine numbers who need to claim benefits. The system is extremely weak, mainly because (I believe) from the sheer volume of numbers that require processing.

Please, don't be a pompous ass spouting Maslow.[/QUOTE]

I presume that was directed at the other guy? :(

Re: Welfare State Britain
 

When you listen to/watch coverage of the US public's response to the proposed idea of eligibility for health care for everyone, you realise the good side to the UK's NHS and wellfare system. In the States, there is very much a mentality of "I go to work for a living, "they" can get a job if they want, and pay for health care, why should my taxes have to pay for "their" health care (welfare check, etc.)?" BBC was showing interviews from US this week showing exactly that sort of attitude. The UK NHS is portrayed as a "socialist" system, derided as being quasi-Communist, etc., by the anti Health Care bill crowd.

Ironic, then, that the poem on the Statue of Liberty includes the phrase, "Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, ..." etc., from the poem "The Colossus".

Yes, we should take care of those who can't take care of themselves and who are unable to find a job, or unable to work through illness or disability. And yes, there are multi-generational welfare families who have learned helplessness.

But no, we shouldn't be subsidizing the work-shy, lazy and shiftless, and they do exist ... forget statistics, just open your eyes, they're there. Acknowledging their existence doesn't make you a sensationalist or Daily Mail reader, it just makes you a realist.

p.s. I worked in what used to be called the "Dole Office" many moons ago and there were plenty of people back then making fraudulent claims, I doubt anything has improved. Blaming the system for people's dishonesty and laziness is a cop-out. What about personal responsibility?

Re: Welfare State Britain
 

I agree that we SHOULD have benefits for people who genuinely need it. But honest to God doing my people watching outside Asda was a real eye-opener, people walking in perfectly fine with disabled stickers on their car and getting onto a mobile scooter to do the shopping.

My sister has a neighbour who is registered blind and taps along the pavement with a white stick but is often seen by them underneath his car fixing it. She also observed him one day coming home and putting his key RIGHT into the lock - you know as you do when you have perfect vision....

Re: Welfare State Britain
 

Maslow actually is the framework to understand the behaviour. The system is not extremely weak and there are not huge numbers of false claimants. There are huge numbers of claimants - but even if they are claimants because they do not want to work they may still be legitimate claimants because they don't have enough money. There are checks and balances to prevent false claims but the only way to make them foolproof is to spend a lot more money on the process.

Re: Welfare State Britain
 

Although Maslow may have some credence in this situation, I think you are looking too deeply into the situation.

Many of the false claimants are just lazy selfish people who drain the system as much as they can, without conscience :thumbdown:

Re: Welfare State Britain
 

HERE, HERE......BOB ON!!!!!!

Re: Welfare State Britain
 

How do you know this?:confused:

Re: Welfare State Britain
 

Not wanting to work is not a legitimate reason for having the right to claim benefits.

I think if you went to a Benefits Office and asked them this, they would agree (IMHO)

Re: Welfare State Britain
 

You have missed the point - as you seem to do. I doubt that people who don't really want to work would not express this to the 'Benefits Office' (sic). I also think that it is a reasonable condition to desire a life without work - albeit with the consequences. I admit that I do not know the exact number of claimants but I assume that most of them are genuine with just the same conviction that some idiots think the majority are not genuine.

Re: Welfare State Britain
 

Would you guys quit using double negatives? I don't got no idea what you ain't trying to say!!!!

Re: Welfare State Britain
 

And what happens when we all decide we don't want to work, but we do want to get paid for not working?

What is the purpose of Job Seekers Allowance if it's not for supporting people who are seeking jobs?

(Crap, you've got me mis-using the not word now)

- and stop screwing up the quotes!

Re: Welfare State Britain
 

Just a couple of points on buying a house on benefits/furnishing a house from benefits.

Mortgage assistance has never paid for capital repayments. It's only ever been interest only. Capital would never reduce unless it was pretty low to begin with and you somehow paid it off from usually modest benefits.

Of course, some may have bought council houses with the big discounts but that would still need capital repayments to come from somewhere; benefits wouldn't cover it.

Very few people qualify for grants for furniture; mostly those returning to the community after some sort of period in an institution or to help people stay in the community and a relative handful of others. For anyone else it's loans.

Whether grants or loans it's only basic stuff allowed for.

There is, of course, huge abuse and it's not just obvious fiddles like undeclared income or falsely alleging non receipt of benefit. I dont know how much it's changed since I left 5 years ago, but there was always a limit to the amount of money a person could owe in loans to DSS/DWP. It was £1000 and a strange quirk meant that limit applied per person or per couple. If one of a couple owed so much that further borrowing wasn't possible without exceeding the limit, couples would "separate" so that one without the debt would apply for another loan. And get it. :sneaky:

Then they'd "get back together" once they spent the loan....or maintain their fraudulent 'single' claims.

Much of these "loans" will, of course, never get paid off.

Re: Welfare State Britain
 

Perhaps that's because you don't explain yourself clearly, or don't realise what you have said (see it's easy being rude - anybody can do it).

I didn't say the majority are not genuine, and neither did anybody else. I was actually asking how many as a 'genuine' question as you seemed to be talking with some conviction.

And I guess anybody who thinks differently to you is an 'idiot'. Not very nice as nobody has been directly insulting to you.

My comment came from what you said -

'but even if they are claimants because they do not want to work they may still be legitimate claimants because they don't have enough money'.

Not as clear as you might think. To me this sounds like you are saying they are legitimate because they don't have enough money as a result of not working, and they are not working because they don't want to........ or am missing the point again!

Try not to get abusive, it's not nice.:thumbdown:

Re: Welfare State Britain
 

This is exactly how she paid for it. She had lived in the house on benefits for a long time, got a large reduction and paid for it from her benefits and her son's benefits (whilst her son also worked as a cash in hand taxi driver).

Yes, the daughter got a loan and never repaid it. She bought furniture with this. Basic stuff or not, she didnt actually pay for it.

Like you say, people will work their way round the system if they want to, and these people did, and still do. :thumbdown:

Re: Welfare State Britain
 

We have families here who do the same, no idea how, but they manage it generation after generation. So it goes on everywhere. they live their whole lives without holding a job and yet they seem fine with it.

Re: Welfare State Britain
 

And in BC. Many people work but only for 6 months of the year. They do tree planting, work in the oil sands off in Alberta....earn crazy amounts of money and come employment insurance for the rest of the year. It's a life style. Not one professionals could ever do though!

Re: Welfare State Britain
 

I presume that was directed at the other guy? :([/QUOTE]

Absolutely! My apologies if you thought otherwise, even if only briefly.

I also agree wholeheartedly with your view that using Maslow is looking too deeply into the situation. To my mind Maslow indicates some complexity to the scenario, whereas this is nothing more than sponging lazy bastards.

Re: Welfare State Britain
 

Which is explained in Shirker's (2010) SLB Theory.

Re: Welfare State Britain
 

Which is explained in Shirker's (2010) SLB Theory.
__________________
Neither here nor there
:rofl:

Re: Welfare State Britain
 

Lavish style? Many of the people on benefits have every kind of convenience in their homes from multi channel flat screen satellite TVs, computers, all sorts of digital hi tec equipment, double glazing, fully fitted kitchens, and a whole range of stuff which at one time really would have been considered "lavish luxury". Many have plenty of dosh left over for booze and cigs.

2nd generation? Try 3rd or even 4th generation now taking into account teen mums and feckless fathers stoned on alcopops and crack.

Broken Britannia indeed, as seen so vividly in Edlington this past week.

Re: Welfare State Britain
 

Not sure what happened to the quotes in this thread, but I've done my best to fix at least the majority of them.......

Re: Welfare State Britain
 

It usually starts with someone either deleting text in their response or bolding text and accidentally carrying over into the "[/quote]" tags. Once one person does that, every subsequent message is messed up ... come on people, it's not that complicated!

Re: Welfare State Britain
 

Well if I knew anyone falsely claiming benefits,I would'nt hesitate to grass them up.Why should I work fulltime myself,only to be paying through taxes to people who can't be assed!(i'm not talking about genuine people in need here).I wonder for example,how many single mums out there genuinely fell pregnant by accident?Or fell pregnant deliberately so as not to "work"!We had a polish male cleaner at work a couple of years ago.He was living here with his girlfriend and their baby.His girlfriend was claiming single mothers pension,council tax rebate and so on and they were living together!!!He worked full time?????Stories like that make my blood boil.

Re: Welfare State Britain
 

me too, it makes me sick the people in this country that sponge off the state. We would probably get more money if my husband didn't work and we were on benefits and he'd get to spend more time with our toddler and baby, but he couldn't do it, because it wouldn't be right, and thats what it comes down to, these chavs just don't have a conscience! I knew by the title i shouldn't have even started to read this thread because it'll probably take me about an hour to calm down!!!!

Re: Welfare State Britain
 

I have read this thread and cannot understand how anyone can save money or even make the ends meet. I am a single woman who is trying desperately to find a job, although I am a educated person with a University degree and send out 10 to 15 CV's per week, have my CV with many employment agencies, willing to take any job, unfortunately because I have been diagnosed with arthritis in my knees, hips and ankles and cannot take a position that would mean that I had to spend many hours on my feet. I receive £65.00 per week for housing benefit, and £58.00 per week for Jobseekers benefit. From that I pay $90.00 per week for rent. £28.00 for broadband and mobile phone per month, £16.00 per month for prescriptions and the rest is to be used for groceries and bus fare when going to jobcentre and looking for work. I do not smoke, go the pub (not that I wouldn't like to go for a glass of wine once and a while) or gamble I have had to sell some my jewellery to make the ends meet and even then it is difficult.

So tell me how do they do it? For I cannnot understand:confused:

Re: Welfare State Britain
 

Simple - they don't just live on benefits.

Cash-in-hand, under the table, black economy......... call it what you like.

(Sorry you're having such a tough time. Fingers crossed for better luck soon :))

Re: Welfare State Britain
 

If you are on benefits, you shouldn't be paying for prescriptions ... and even people earning a wage can buy a 3-month prescription certificate for £13 (or £38 for a 12-month one, in Scotland) that covers all prescriptions for free ... your chemist should have told you this by now. Ask them next time you are there and you'll save yourself some cash:

http://www.dh.gov.uk/en/Healthcare/M...sts/DH_4049383 (certificate details)

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publicati.../01/30125542/7 (exemptions)

- of course in Wales they are free for everyone.

Re: Welfare State Britain
 

People on welfare can't possibly lead lives of luxury unless they're working under the table. I feel badly for people like you that so badly want to get out and work. I really admire you!

Re: Welfare State Britain
 

But aren't they worried about getting caught, I even told them about the few times I have worked for my friend and they now take £8.00 a week off even though I haven't worked since before Christmas, still I don't think I could say nothing without looking and feeling very guilty

Re: Welfare State Britain
 

No one told me they kept asking me when I took my prescription in to sign here if I paid and at another spot if I did not. I always sign and pay, I guess it makes me feel like I have some self respect.