Wub

Interesting - except that the state gives 'handouts', not just to the 'undeserving poor', as some would have it on this thread - but to the likes
of: politicians (remember all those expenses?), the royal family, the BBC, every government department you care to name has handouts in the shape of 'performance bonuses'.....who funds all of this then eh?

The fundamental flaw in the argument here is that its not ok to claim rightful dues - but it is ok for bankers et al to screw the system - and get hugely rewarded to boot.

Its the 21st Century people... but if Victorian moral outrage floats your boat.....

Beedubya

I have been here almost a year and have never understood this tax credits thing. Is it only for people who have kids? I just pay my tax every week directly from my pay (PAYE????).

If I lost my job would I get some tax back?

In Oz you fill out a tax return at the end of every financial year and get a tax rebate back or sometimes owe the Tax Office money.

I have tried the website but I can't get past all the gobbledygook.

formula

This chart might help you understand the welfare system a bit better with a chart to show all welfare payments. Agreed state pensions can't be cut, but the next biggest welfare payment is tax credits at 24billion

As the 2010 general election looms, the major parties continue to battle it out over how to cut public expenditure. Reductions in the UK benefits system has been discussed as one of the main ways to plug the government’s deficit and alleviating the public debt burden. Here the Financial Times looks at the major benefits offered by the government and asks what they are, how you get them and how much they cost.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/e3a04cec-e...nclick_check=1


From an article in The Telegragh last year, but add to this that the government have already had to borrow in January 2010 and borrowing in January has never been done before.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...x-revenue.html

"Treasury figures show that welfare payments will exceed income tax receipts by almost £25 billion. Normally, income tax receipts comfortably cover the benefits bill. "

"In 2009/10, the Treasury is expecting to take in £140.5 billion in gross income tax receipts. Social security benefits are projected to be £164.7 billion. "

"As well as spending more on welfare, the Government is facing rising bills for the interest on the growing national debt, which is set to hit £1.4 trillion in five years.

The Government is already spending more money paying the interest on its debts than it raises from one of its most unpopular taxes, fuel duty imposed on motorists."

"Mr Brown's argument was undermined this week when Mervyn King, the Bank of England governor, warned that whoever wins the next election will have no choice but to cut spending and raise taxes in order to reduce the "extraordinary" deficit Labour has run up.

Mr Brough warned that unless the public finances are quickly brought back into balance, the international investors will turn their backs on Britain, threatening a national financial catastrophe."


AND for tax credits, it refers to them as handouts:_

"impose welfare cuts including ending rules that allow even some middle-income households to receive state handouts.

Some 130,000 households with a total income over £50,000 are currently eligible for tax credits of about £10 a week."

formula

If you look at The Financial Times link with chart:-

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/e3a04cec-e...nclick_check=1

it shows that the £164.7 billion annual projected cost of welfare payments are making the one off banking loans seem like a tiny drop in the ocean.

In the last decade, there have been some very generous state handouts given and in that same time, the national debt has been doubled.

Whether people think they are "entitled" to these payments or not, is irrelevant. The country could never afford them and now has come the time to pay the debts. Not only will we have to pay these debts and all the interest but sadly, our children and grandchildren will also have to pay for those excesses enjoyed in the last decade

Or are you suggesting that health and education costs should be cut instead of welfare payments?

formula

The word "tax" in tax credits is misleading as it has nothing to do with taxes paid. You don't have to work to get tax credits. Tax credits are a welfare payment. Some people missed out on this fairly new (2002?) welfare payment as they too assumed you had to be working to claim it - you don't.

If you lost your job, you would apply for a tax rebate. If you lost your job at the end of the tax year (runs April to April) your tax rebate would be very little.

Wub

Or are you suggesting that health and education costs should be cut instead of welfare payments?[/QUOTE]

I have not suggested anything of the sort. Where did that come from?

What I am saying is that its very, very easy - and curiously sad in a way - to immediately attack the welfare state as a harbinger of all things awful and to play the 'blame game', indiscriminately.

Whatever happened to accountability?

The government, the banks and the financial services sector have created this mess. The deficit is as a direct result of bad management and hopeless housekeeping.

Its the gambling on derivatives and the mad mortgage fest of recent times that has created the current situation we find ourselves in and turning on the recipients of welfare as part of the problem is disingenuous in the extreme.

If we had a real push to create jobs in the technology and ecology sectors then eventually, the taxes remitted would go some way to clearing the problems.

If young people fresh out of university earned a good wage not a subsistence one , that would help generate house purchases, car purchase; stimulating the economy in meaningful and directly taxable ways.

If lifetime savings and investments had been handled with propriety and decency - many of the elderly would not need to claim for benefits -indeed, would not qualify for benefits...

And there are many, many other examples of how ordinary, regular people have been financially cast adrift in recent times.

Cutting off lifelines for the most vulnerable members of society (whether deserving or not) is just more of the same 'in the box', thinking that offers scapegoats rather than solutions.

How convenient.

Beedubya

Thanks for that formula - I didn't realise that! I didn't work from the 6th November until December 2nd as I was between jobs, I will see if I can get a few quid back in retrospect!!

dunroving

I agree with you in general, but feel that people who are capable of work should work, not sit on their backsides for years yelling at the footie on the TV, or propping up the bar at the local pub chain-smoking (if you're on benefits, how can you afford cigarettes? And eventually lead to further public costs through treatment of smoking-related diseases).

I fail to see why some of the debt owed to the country by long-term benefits recipients can't be repaid by doing some work - there's plenty to do, all you have to do is look around - litter to be picked up, basic repair jobs and painting of public buildings and other structures.

It doesn't bother me that I am subsidizing the single mother who lives up the street and works part-time while her kids are at school, or someone with a (genuine) chronic illness or disability, but after a lifetime of paying taxes on both sides of the Atlantic, I'm tired of funding the lifestyle of a generation of shiftless ne'er-do-wells who'd tell you to go **** yourself if it were even suggested they might do some community service.

It's unfortunate that all can sometimes be painted with the same brush, but the cost of welfare/benefits IS a huge burden to this country and a lot of it is unnecessary.

I'd make the investment bankers repay their fraudulently-earned bonuses from 2006-2009, too.

formula

I agree with that and will add that I don't mind supporting those that have just lost their jobs, to enable them to find another job. That's what the welfare system was set up for, to help those in their time of need.

The benefit system should never be used to live on by the healthy. It's much better for the children to see their parents earning to support their families, than filling in benefit forms.

formula

You're welcome. You won't be able to claim until the end of the tax year.

Here is the online guide http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Diol1/DoItOnline/DG_4017558

Edited to say that I have just noticed you lived in Oz. Any idea if a non Oz who worked in Oz for a few months, can claim any of their government payments back?

jonfrank123

So what!! whatever system is in place there will always be people who will play it. Anywhere in the world.

Beedubya

You know Dunroving when we had that awful ice on the pavements and roads, I kept thinking, "Why don't they get all these kids who are on the dole and Job Seekers Allowance out here spreading grit and digging paths?" just so the elderly could go out and do their shopping, the youngsters could go to school and people could go about their business.

I don't know the answer to this "dole" mentality, but surely there could be some work that is available for the younger generation to do for their money?? Like you say, picking up litter, cleaning of graffitti, whatever, not just this mentality of "Give me the dole because I am entitled to it."

It must be something to do with the minimum wage, I don't know? But I don't ever remember as a youngster thinking I would be financially better off not working than having a job? You just went out and found a job, any job!!

p.s. Dare I even say, bring back conscription???

Beedubya

Noooo I live in England (for the moment)!!!

But I would say the system was reciprocal???

Victor Meldrew

I don't understand your comment 'So what!!'.

I was answering someones query as to how my ex-BiL managed to get a car on 'benefits'.

Wub

As hard as it is to swallow, this is, sadly, what does happen - and jonfrank makes a very valid point.

What I am saying is that while we're busy denigrating one part of society claiming benefits - deserved or otherwise - we're like ostriches ignoring the bigger issues involved here.

There are serious problems ahead, financially, as another poster sensibly points out and future generations are going to have to continue paying for this massive deficit well into second, even third generations.

And that's the point I'm making here.

Yes, by all means, clamp down on those abusing the system. I have no problem with that.

What I do have a problem with is the scapegoating of certain sectors of society as if its they who have caused the problem in the first place!