The Bulgarian & Romanians
Jan 4th 2014, 9:01 pm
#91
WhiteRabbit
Joined: Dec 2004
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Posts: 1,480
Re: The Bulgarian & Romanians
The westernization of Britian to US "at-will" employment.
Jan 4th 2014, 9:04 pm
#92
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Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 904
Re: The Bulgarian & Romanians
What's the chances they could get away with that if their was a labour shortage, rather than a glut of people ready to work for a pittance?
Jan 4th 2014, 9:37 pm
#93
Dichotomus tinker
Thread Starter
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Posts: 6,678
Re: The Bulgarian & Romanians
Jan 4th 2014, 9:44 pm
#94
Joined: Feb 2012
Location: Not in Paris
Posts: 18,194
Re: The Bulgarian & Romanians
People have short memories.
The same jobs that paid the minimum wage before the A8 countries joined in 2004 the EU were the same jobs that paid the minimum wage after they joined. Only difference was that many of them were now filled by Poles who worked a lot harder with a lot fewer excuses and complaints. I was a poor student at this time and worked behind bars and in warehouses for minimum wage. The difference between most of the British workers and their Polish counterparts was night and day.
I also remember stories in the papers of stockbrokers quitting their City jobs to retrain as plumbers and electricians due to the shortage of skilled tradespeople and being able to make more money due to the astronomical prices being charged.
Whilst the previous government massively underestimated the numbers of people who would come to the UK from Eastern Europe, and therefore failed to impose transitional controls like most of the rest of the EU, the fact there was a large influx of both skilled and unskilled workers was undeniably a real boon to the UK.
Unlike in 2004 the UK did impose transitional controls on Bulgaria and Romania this time around so the effect will probably be unnoticeable given that a lot fewer people are going to be spread out over many more countries.
I was a young Bulgarian or Romanian I would be heading to Germany. A lot more job vacancies, higher wages and closer to home.
The same jobs that paid the minimum wage before the A8 countries joined in 2004 the EU were the same jobs that paid the minimum wage after they joined. Only difference was that many of them were now filled by Poles who worked a lot harder with a lot fewer excuses and complaints. I was a poor student at this time and worked behind bars and in warehouses for minimum wage. The difference between most of the British workers and their Polish counterparts was night and day.
I also remember stories in the papers of stockbrokers quitting their City jobs to retrain as plumbers and electricians due to the shortage of skilled tradespeople and being able to make more money due to the astronomical prices being charged.
Whilst the previous government massively underestimated the numbers of people who would come to the UK from Eastern Europe, and therefore failed to impose transitional controls like most of the rest of the EU, the fact there was a large influx of both skilled and unskilled workers was undeniably a real boon to the UK.
Unlike in 2004 the UK did impose transitional controls on Bulgaria and Romania this time around so the effect will probably be unnoticeable given that a lot fewer people are going to be spread out over many more countries.
I was a young Bulgarian or Romanian I would be heading to Germany. A lot more job vacancies, higher wages and closer to home.
Jan 4th 2014, 10:16 pm
#95
BE Enthusiast
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 904
Re: The Bulgarian & Romanians
People have short memories.
The same jobs that paid the minimum wage before the A8 countries joined in 2004 the EU were the same jobs that paid the minimum wage after they joined. Only difference was that many of them were now filled by Poles who worked a lot harder with a lot fewer excuses and complaints. I was a poor student at this time and worked behind bars and in warehouses for minimum wage. The difference between most of the British workers and their Polish counterparts was night and day.
I also remember stories in the papers of stockbrokers quitting their City jobs to retrain as plumbers and electricians due to the shortage of skilled tradespeople and being able to make more money due to the astronomical prices being charged.
Whilst the previous government massively underestimated the numbers of people who would come to the UK from Eastern Europe, and therefore failed to impose transitional controls like most of the rest of the EU, the fact there was a large influx of both skilled and unskilled workers was undeniably a real boon to the UK.
Unlike in 2004 the UK did impose transitional controls on Bulgaria and Romania this time around so the effect will probably be unnoticeable given that a lot fewer people are going to be spread out over many more countries.
I was a young Bulgarian or Romanian I would be heading to Germany. A lot more job vacancies, higher wages and closer to home.
The same jobs that paid the minimum wage before the A8 countries joined in 2004 the EU were the same jobs that paid the minimum wage after they joined. Only difference was that many of them were now filled by Poles who worked a lot harder with a lot fewer excuses and complaints. I was a poor student at this time and worked behind bars and in warehouses for minimum wage. The difference between most of the British workers and their Polish counterparts was night and day.
I also remember stories in the papers of stockbrokers quitting their City jobs to retrain as plumbers and electricians due to the shortage of skilled tradespeople and being able to make more money due to the astronomical prices being charged.
Whilst the previous government massively underestimated the numbers of people who would come to the UK from Eastern Europe, and therefore failed to impose transitional controls like most of the rest of the EU, the fact there was a large influx of both skilled and unskilled workers was undeniably a real boon to the UK.
Unlike in 2004 the UK did impose transitional controls on Bulgaria and Romania this time around so the effect will probably be unnoticeable given that a lot fewer people are going to be spread out over many more countries.
I was a young Bulgarian or Romanian I would be heading to Germany. A lot more job vacancies, higher wages and closer to home.
If that's the case how come the levels of migration into the UK are now such a massive issue? Over 70% believe its 'too high'.
How come all political parties are now saying it needs to be reduced?
Surely if was such a great thing then people would massively in favour of just opening the doors and letting the entire world come and go as they pleased?
Just because you think it was "a boon" doesn't make that the reality.
Jan 4th 2014, 11:02 pm
#96
Joined: Feb 2012
Location: Not in Paris
Posts: 18,194
Re: The Bulgarian & Romanians
Was it?
If that's the case how come the levels of migration into the UK are now such a massive issue? Over 70% believe its 'too high'.
How come all political parties are now saying it needs to be reduced?
Surely if was such a great thing then people would massively in favour of just opening the doors and letting the entire world come and go as they pleased?
Just because you think it was "a boon" doesn't make that the reality.
If that's the case how come the levels of migration into the UK are now such a massive issue? Over 70% believe its 'too high'.
How come all political parties are now saying it needs to be reduced?
Surely if was such a great thing then people would massively in favour of just opening the doors and letting the entire world come and go as they pleased?
Just because you think it was "a boon" doesn't make that the reality.
I hold my opinions based on my own personal experience. Given that most of the people on this forum live outside the UK, often for many years now, I'm not sure where these vehemently held opinions that the UK is ''too full'' and immigration is destroying the social fabric of the nation come from other than what they've read online somewhere.
Jan 4th 2014, 11:16 pm
#97
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Posts: 904
Re: The Bulgarian & Romanians
And just because 70% of people now "believe" immigration is too high doesn't mean it is. Economic realities tell us otherwise. Blaming immigrants is a easy dodge for politicians rather than facing some difficult truths about their own failings. The media is happy to play along as fear and misery sells a lot more newspapers.
I hold my opinions based on my own personal experience. Given that most of the people on this forum live outside the UK, often for many years now, I'm not sure where these vehemently held opinions that the UK is ''too full'' and immigration is destroying the social fabric of the nation come from other than what they've read online somewhere.
I hold my opinions based on my own personal experience. Given that most of the people on this forum live outside the UK, often for many years now, I'm not sure where these vehemently held opinions that the UK is ''too full'' and immigration is destroying the social fabric of the nation come from other than what they've read online somewhere.
"70% of people now "believe" immigration is too high doesn't mean it is"
Sorry, but yes, it does. If the majority of the UK population are not happy with the current levels then its too high, regardless of how you want to spin it as some media conspiracy.
Jan 4th 2014, 11:54 pm
#98
WhiteRabbit
Joined: Dec 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 1,480
Re: The Bulgarian & Romanians
3.8 Million in ten years? Too many? I'm guessing you're saying its not. So what is too many?
"70% of people now "believe" immigration is too high doesn't mean it is"
Sorry, but yes, it does. If the majority of the UK population are not happy with the current levels then its too high, regardless of how you want to spin it as some media conspiracy.
"70% of people now "believe" immigration is too high doesn't mean it is"
Sorry, but yes, it does. If the majority of the UK population are not happy with the current levels then its too high, regardless of how you want to spin it as some media conspiracy.
Here's an interesting article which comes at both sides.
http://kenanmalik.wordpress.com/2013...f-immigration/
"If we want the facts and figures to have an impact we need first to reframe the immigration debate. There is not much point in showing that immigrants do not come to sponge off the welfare state, or that they benefit the economy, if we have already accepted that immigrants are a problem. We need rather to view immigration from an entirely different perspective. We need to acknowledge the movement of peoples as neither an aberration, nor as an evil to be tolerated, but as an inherent part of human life. We need to view the social changes that immigration brings not as a loss of something precious, but also as the gain of something valuable, the creation of a more open, vibrant, cosmopolitan society. We should regard the clashes and conflicts in ideas and values that immigration often creates not as something to be feared and minimised but as something to be prized, the basis of social engagement, the means by which we can break out of our narrow cultural boxes and create possibility of a common language of citizenship.
Adopting such an approach is difficult because it runs counter to so much of what is regarded as social wisdom. That is why it is all the more important to view immigration in this fashion. To do so requires, however, conviction and courage. And those are two virtues noticeable by their absence in contemporary politics."
Jan 5th 2014, 12:58 am
#99
Looking Around~
Joined: Dec 2012
Location: England
Posts: 1,550
Re: The Bulgarian & Romanians
all for nothing was Y2K
along the lines of ....
A few of them will collectively pool their money & likely own their first of many car wash outlets, as well one or two houses rented to British folks on welfare or many more of their country folk that end up in the UK - all the while British workers & scroungers [as reported in the Daily Mail] will be up in arms that the Romanians & Bulgarians are taking over the country. Or, that that came to the UK to take jobs, from Brits, saved their money then left back to their countries with bags full of money.
'what we need is a change of government'
The other point on this following the first lad to land is that he is working a 8-6 shift for minimum wage & what he earns in one shift is approx what it took him 10 days to earn back home.
If that lad in the car wash was my child I would be proud.....
But its too early to judge the outcome a year from now
along the lines of ....
A few of them will collectively pool their money & likely own their first of many car wash outlets, as well one or two houses rented to British folks on welfare or many more of their country folk that end up in the UK - all the while British workers & scroungers [as reported in the Daily Mail] will be up in arms that the Romanians & Bulgarians are taking over the country. Or, that that came to the UK to take jobs, from Brits, saved their money then left back to their countries with bags full of money.
'what we need is a change of government'
The other point on this following the first lad to land is that he is working a 8-6 shift for minimum wage & what he earns in one shift is approx what it took him 10 days to earn back home.
If that lad in the car wash was my child I would be proud.....
But its too early to judge the outcome a year from now
Proud? ok... but while I respect this guy for trying to lift himself from poverty. I do not think he should be allowed to come here to work. 1, He is clearly unskilled. 2, We have millions of unemployed. 3, We have enough car washes. This man and his family will receive all the benefits going. Which he will send home. He will burden our NHS and other services. Good for Britain?
Absolutely not.
said it before and i'll say it again call me a fool? just wait a while folks lol
Jan 5th 2014, 1:13 am
#100
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Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 904
Re: The Bulgarian & Romanians
There use to be a time where most of the people in the world believed it was flat.
Here's an interesting article which comes at both sides.
http://kenanmalik.wordpress.com/2013...f-immigration/
"If we want the facts and figures to have an impact we need first to reframe the immigration debate. There is not much point in showing that immigrants do not come to sponge off the welfare state, or that they benefit the economy, if we have already accepted that immigrants are a problem. We need rather to view immigration from an entirely different perspective. We need to acknowledge the movement of peoples as neither an aberration, nor as an evil to be tolerated, but as an inherent part of human life. We need to view the social changes that immigration brings not as a loss of something precious, but also as the gain of something valuable, the creation of a more open, vibrant, cosmopolitan society. We should regard the clashes and conflicts in ideas and values that immigration often creates not as something to be feared and minimised but as something to be prized, the basis of social engagement, the means by which we can break out of our narrow cultural boxes and create possibility of a common language of citizenship.Adopting such an approach is difficult because it runs counter to so much of what is regarded as social wisdom. That is why it is all the more important to view immigration in this fashion. To do so requires, however, conviction and courage. And those are two virtues noticeable by their absence in contemporary politics."
Here's an interesting article which comes at both sides.
http://kenanmalik.wordpress.com/2013...f-immigration/
"If we want the facts and figures to have an impact we need first to reframe the immigration debate. There is not much point in showing that immigrants do not come to sponge off the welfare state, or that they benefit the economy, if we have already accepted that immigrants are a problem. We need rather to view immigration from an entirely different perspective. We need to acknowledge the movement of peoples as neither an aberration, nor as an evil to be tolerated, but as an inherent part of human life. We need to view the social changes that immigration brings not as a loss of something precious, but also as the gain of something valuable, the creation of a more open, vibrant, cosmopolitan society. We should regard the clashes and conflicts in ideas and values that immigration often creates not as something to be feared and minimised but as something to be prized, the basis of social engagement, the means by which we can break out of our narrow cultural boxes and create possibility of a common language of citizenship.Adopting such an approach is difficult because it runs counter to so much of what is regarded as social wisdom. That is why it is all the more important to view immigration in this fashion. To do so requires, however, conviction and courage. And those are two virtues noticeable by their absence in contemporary politics."
"There use to be a time where most of the people in the world believed it was flat"
That's actually a myth and a totally irrelevant analogy anyway. If the bulk of a population of any nation say that the inward movements are "too much" than that's the fact of the matter. To say otherwise is just elitist 'we know better' type nonsense.
Kenan Malik is a classic example of that 'we know better' type. He dismisses anybody who disagrees with his views with a haughty wave of the hand.
Jan 5th 2014, 4:07 am
#101
WhiteRabbit
Joined: Dec 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 1,480
Re: The Bulgarian & Romanians
"There use to be a time where most of the people in the world believed it was flat"
That's actually a myth and a totally irrelevant analogy anyway. If the bulk of a population of any nation say that the inward movements are "too much" than that's the fact of the matter. To say otherwise is just elitist 'we know better' type nonsense.
Kenan Malik is a classic example of that 'we know better' type. He dismisses anybody who disagrees with his views with a haughty wave of the hand.
That's actually a myth and a totally irrelevant analogy anyway. If the bulk of a population of any nation say that the inward movements are "too much" than that's the fact of the matter. To say otherwise is just elitist 'we know better' type nonsense.
Kenan Malik is a classic example of that 'we know better' type. He dismisses anybody who disagrees with his views with a haughty wave of the hand.
Jan 5th 2014, 5:47 am
#102
BE Enthusiast
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 904
Re: The Bulgarian & Romanians
Why, because I disagree with you? I'm not dismissing your view, I just don't agree with it. There's a major difference.
The governments, any government, first aim should be to try and protect and where possible improve, the interests of its own people.
I simple don't agree that the surge in migration to the UK over the last ten years has done that.
The governments, any government, first aim should be to try and protect and where possible improve, the interests of its own people.
I simple don't agree that the surge in migration to the UK over the last ten years has done that.
Last edited by TheCreature; Jan 5th 2014 at 5:52 am.
Jan 5th 2014, 5:56 am
#103
Forum Regular
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 264
Re: The Bulgarian & Romanians
So - I want to make it personal. I was born in the US to a British mother (making me a British citizen by descent). While I live in the US and am currently doing a Master's degree here, I have more family in the UK and when I'm back there (which hasn't been as much lately as it used to be, sadly, when I'd spend large parts of my summers in the UK growing up) I feel more at home that I do in the States.
Who here would deny me the right to move back to the UK? I'd hope not very many, but if you would, I won't be offended.
If you wouldn't, what's the difference between me and a well-educated, hard-working Romanian looking to move to the UK for any reason - culture, economy, opportunities, etc?
Furthermore, what's the difference between them and MOST people on this board? For an immigration-related board, there sure is a pretty strong anti-immigrant sentiment.
Who here would deny me the right to move back to the UK? I'd hope not very many, but if you would, I won't be offended.
If you wouldn't, what's the difference between me and a well-educated, hard-working Romanian looking to move to the UK for any reason - culture, economy, opportunities, etc?
Furthermore, what's the difference between them and MOST people on this board? For an immigration-related board, there sure is a pretty strong anti-immigrant sentiment.
Jan 5th 2014, 6:27 am
#104
BE Enthusiast
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 904
Re: The Bulgarian & Romanians
So - I want to make it personal. I was born in the US to a British mother (making me a British citizen by descent). While I live in the US and am currently doing a Master's degree here, I have more family in the UK and when I'm back there (which hasn't been as much lately as it used to be, sadly, when I'd spend large parts of my summers in the UK growing up) I feel more at home that I do in the States.
Who here would deny me the right to move back to the UK? I'd hope not very many, but if you would, I won't be offended.
If you wouldn't, what's the difference between me and a well-educated, hard-working Romanian looking to move to the UK for any reason - culture, economy, opportunities, etc?
Furthermore, what's the difference between them and MOST people on this board? For an immigration-related board, there sure is a pretty strong anti-immigrant sentiment.
Who here would deny me the right to move back to the UK? I'd hope not very many, but if you would, I won't be offended.
If you wouldn't, what's the difference between me and a well-educated, hard-working Romanian looking to move to the UK for any reason - culture, economy, opportunities, etc?
Furthermore, what's the difference between them and MOST people on this board? For an immigration-related board, there sure is a pretty strong anti-immigrant sentiment.
The US has strict visa controls. The UK, as far as European Union countries is concerned, effectively has none. It means anybody and everybody who wants to go to the UK can just walk in, no questions asked.
How would the US handle it if it dropped all visa controls to all of South America?
Jan 5th 2014, 6:31 am
#105
Forum Regular
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 264
Re: The Bulgarian & Romanians
Its not the people who are the issue. Its the NUMBERS.
The US has strict visa controls. The UK, as far as European Union countries is concerned, effectively has none. It means anybody and everybody who wants to go to the UK can just walk in, no questions asked.
How would the US handle it if it dropped all visa controls to all of South America?
The US has strict visa controls. The UK, as far as European Union countries is concerned, effectively has none. It means anybody and everybody who wants to go to the UK can just walk in, no questions asked.
How would the US handle it if it dropped all visa controls to all of South America?
Imagine the land we call the US today if it WASN'T for unrestricted immigration here. It would be far worse off economically (now, culturally, you can argue, I sure am not one to say the way settlers treated the native population was right, it wasn't).