Re: The Bulgarian & Romanians
 

:goodpost: (returning the good post, thanks :) )

No, you don't decide. The Frenchman in question is a lovely bloke, does lots of community things - we invited him to our wedding. It's the element of smallmindedness, which is just as prevalent in England.

Re: The Bulgarian & Romanians
 

Immigration is very much in the media at the moment. Couple of programs on BBC this morning that covered it.

On the Andrew Marr show, Cameron was saying they plan to bring back the method for recording entry/exit (similar to the I-94, etc. in the US). Apparently we used to do that and it was stopped a few years back to save money.

On The Big Questions, immigration was discussed and the audience pretty much said everything we have been saying. The following points were made by various audience members and guest participants:

Immigration has been a very good thing in the past (anecdotal examples were given by several audience members about their own families).

In the past, most immigrants have assimilated.

The recent rate of immigration is making things more difficult than in the past (immigrants tend to create their own sub-groups and don't assimilate).

Considering the economic difficulties we are currently experiencing in the UK, how can we afford to let a lot more people enter the country.

The willingness of many recent immigrants to work long hours at very low wages is undermining the power of the unions to push for wage regulation to make it attractive to work in basic jobs.

The NHS would not survive if it weren't for the 30% of doctors and 40% of nurses who are immigrants.

Many social and economic problems are being blamed on immigrants rather than on the bankers who caused the problems and this is a convenient smokescreen for the fact the government is not being proactive enough to solve the problems (e.g., building more social housing, etc.)

Many of the difficulties that may be caused by large scale immigration don't affect people who make/made the legislation and who support immigration (because they live in leafy suburbs and are in professions that aren't affected by competition from immigrants).

- "Discuss" ;)

Re: The Bulgarian & Romanians
 

OK, I'm up for 'discuss' :)
If the UK were to look after it's own, and there were no immigrants then the 30% of doctors and 40% of nurses wouldn't be necessary.
Too many Brits are workshy.
Politicians are well out of touch with reality.

Re: The Bulgarian & Romanians
 

Agree with the last two, but they are relevant to a much wider debate than just immigration.

Regarding the first, I suppose if approximately 40% of the population were immigrants that would be "statistically true". The statistic was thrown out by one of the participants (I think it was Owen Whatsisname ... forgotten his name ... liberal commentator from somewhere in London). I'd be interested in whether the 30% and 40% are recent immigrants or people with a more distant immigrant past (I'd imagine many would be second generation UK citizens of Asian descent).

Re: The Bulgarian & Romanians
 

I'm not convinced about that. That would be assuming that Brits (i.e.50th generation immigrants) were incapable of studying to become doctors and nurses, or how many 'native' doctors and nurses have emigrated. OK, I concede.
If it was worthwhile for home bred medicals to remain, and there was a capacity for home bred people to qualify, I don't see why it would be necessary to import.

Re: The Bulgarian & Romanians
 

I'd be curious to hear from someone who has a more historical understanding of the situation. It's not a particularly recent phenomenon, and I agree that you'd think there would be enough smart Brits to study to be doctors. And the pay is certainly an incentive.

Now as far as nurses go, the pay may not be as attractive and it's a bloody tough job so maybe it's looked upon as one step up from janitor and car-washer by Brits. That's not how I feel about it, but I could see the level of dedication being too high for many Brits to consider it an attractive job. Interestingly, since the qualification has become degree-only, you read about newly-qualified nurses complaining about some of the more basic care aspects of the job (it's beneath them, as degree-holders).

Re: The Bulgarian & Romanians
 

Just for the record here, the US is full of "foreign" doctors. There are quite a lot of them here where we live - and where we live would be considered full-on po-dunk-ville by many of you here. And you can can spot some of them by their native dress.

Re: The Bulgarian & Romanians
 

The theory about the US attracting foreign doctors is because native Americans find it difficult to fund a US medical degree.

Re: The Bulgarian & Romanians
 

On doctors and nurses, one of the reasons so many are from Commonwealth countries rather than being 'home grown', is that it's a lot cheaper to hire a ready qualified doctor from India or nurse from Ghana than it is train sufficient numbers of people in the UK. Potential British-born medical students are also being put off the high cost of education in the UK.

Re: The Bulgarian & Romanians
 

You have to wonder what is the effect of this (and the number of foreign doctors and nurses in the UK and presumably other European countries) on health care in their home countries. (seriously)

Re: The Bulgarian & Romanians
 

You only have to look at the working abroad by profession section to see that a lot of nurses emigrate. I think you've hit the nail on the head that it's undervalued here. On the other hand, as far back as I can remember, there were filipina nurses. I can see a few wanting to qualify as doctors, but nursing, where it is a tough and dirty job, why bother when you can stack shelves at Tesco. That's where the problem lies - it's all about money and the easiest way to get it. (cynic, moi?)

Re: The Bulgarian & Romanians
 

That makes sense, I'd never thought about it that way before.

Re: The Bulgarian & Romanians
 

It's more complcated than that.

Healthcare is a burgeoning industry in the US and for many years has been one of the few industries where a job could easily be had. So, a lot of people went into the nursing profession.

What we now have here is a lot of people who shouldn't be nurses.

There are just some careers people shouldn't take on for money.

Re: The Bulgarian & Romanians
 

Which brings me back to "if the UK would look after it's own"

Re: The Bulgarian & Romanians
 

I know this is back a few posts, but I really want to address this.

What I am trying to get you to see (really) is that there has ALWAYS been anti-immigrant rhetoric. I don't think it matters whether one talks about people transiting or staying, or where they are from, or whether they assimilate, or whatever.

I am trying to show you that what you are saying - is not new. And to show that there has always been an ugly side to the discussion rather than people trying to work together to figure out a solution.