What's the equivalent of a Euro "cent"?
Sep 18th 2003, 5:16 pm
#61
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: What's the equivalent of a Euro "cent"?
On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 19:52:59 +0200, "tim"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>"Hatunen" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>> On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 14:08:48 +0100, "Keith Willshaw"
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> >The definition of legal tender in UK law is
>> >
>> >That currency, or money, which the law authorizes a debtor to
>> >tender and requires a creditor to receive.
>>
>> Do you have a cite for that passage in UK law?
>unlikely to be easy to find, it is some hundred years old.
>Note, that the debt has to exist before the payment is offered, walking up
>to the cash desk, selected purchase in one hand, coins in the other is
>not a situation where legal tender has to be accepted.
>Ok, found a reference that maybe you'll believe, still no definitive
>act though:
>http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/bankn...egaltender.htm
It says "The concept of legal tender is often misunderstood.
Contrary to popular opinion, legal tender is not a means of
payment that must be accepted by the parties to a transaction,
but rather a legally defined means of payment that should not be
refused by a creditor in satisfaction of a debt. "
Seems pretty clear to me: legal tender doesn't have to be
accepted but it should be.
************* DAVE HATUNEN ([email protected]) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *
<[email protected]> wrote:
>"Hatunen" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>> On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 14:08:48 +0100, "Keith Willshaw"
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> >The definition of legal tender in UK law is
>> >
>> >That currency, or money, which the law authorizes a debtor to
>> >tender and requires a creditor to receive.
>>
>> Do you have a cite for that passage in UK law?
>unlikely to be easy to find, it is some hundred years old.
>Note, that the debt has to exist before the payment is offered, walking up
>to the cash desk, selected purchase in one hand, coins in the other is
>not a situation where legal tender has to be accepted.
>Ok, found a reference that maybe you'll believe, still no definitive
>act though:
>http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/bankn...egaltender.htm
It says "The concept of legal tender is often misunderstood.
Contrary to popular opinion, legal tender is not a means of
payment that must be accepted by the parties to a transaction,
but rather a legally defined means of payment that should not be
refused by a creditor in satisfaction of a debt. "
Seems pretty clear to me: legal tender doesn't have to be
accepted but it should be.
************* DAVE HATUNEN ([email protected]) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *
Sep 18th 2003, 5:29 pm
#62
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: What's the equivalent of a Euro "cent"?
"Arwel Parry" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In message <[email protected]>, tile
> <[email protected]> writes
> If I remember correctly, Monaco coins are issued in some direct
> proportion to the number of French coins issued, so they are reasonably
> common in circulation.
AIUI all countries are allowed to mint coins in direct proportion to their
population. (aside - I believe that were the UK to join it would gain a
wind-fall of several millions because it has a smaller cash based economy
than other European countries and will be paid by the Central bank for
minting more coins that it actually needs.)
> The Vatican is only authorised to issue a little
> over 600,000 euros worth of
Taking Germany as an example there were about 10 of each coin
minted per citizen in the first year, so that 40 euro each.
If what you say is correct, V does extremely well on this measure, its
800 population each have 750 Euro of coins minted on their behalf.
> coins each year
How can an economy mint the same number each year as the initial
year? Coins have a life of 20-25 years (if they didn't the economics
of using them fails completely), so after you've fully satisfied the initial
demand all you can do is mint coins to replace those that leave
circulation (say 5% pa) plus the growth in the economy 3% in a good
year, so about 8% total, anything more is inflationary and ought not to
be allowed by fiscally sensitive bank.
Tim (somewhere between, completely serious and somewhat tongue in
cheek)
>(twice as much in Holy Years
> and Sede Vacante years, and seeing how the Pope looked in Slovakia last
> week I imagine we'll be having one of those before long...), so it's
> extremely unlikely you'll ever find any of them in circulation!
> --
> Arwel Parry
> http://www.cartref.demon.co.uk/
news:[email protected]...
> In message <[email protected]>, tile
> <[email protected]> writes
> If I remember correctly, Monaco coins are issued in some direct
> proportion to the number of French coins issued, so they are reasonably
> common in circulation.
AIUI all countries are allowed to mint coins in direct proportion to their
population. (aside - I believe that were the UK to join it would gain a
wind-fall of several millions because it has a smaller cash based economy
than other European countries and will be paid by the Central bank for
minting more coins that it actually needs.)
> The Vatican is only authorised to issue a little
> over 600,000 euros worth of
Taking Germany as an example there were about 10 of each coin
minted per citizen in the first year, so that 40 euro each.
If what you say is correct, V does extremely well on this measure, its
800 population each have 750 Euro of coins minted on their behalf.
> coins each year
How can an economy mint the same number each year as the initial
year? Coins have a life of 20-25 years (if they didn't the economics
of using them fails completely), so after you've fully satisfied the initial
demand all you can do is mint coins to replace those that leave
circulation (say 5% pa) plus the growth in the economy 3% in a good
year, so about 8% total, anything more is inflationary and ought not to
be allowed by fiscally sensitive bank.
Tim (somewhere between, completely serious and somewhat tongue in
cheek)
>(twice as much in Holy Years
> and Sede Vacante years, and seeing how the Pope looked in Slovakia last
> week I imagine we'll be having one of those before long...), so it's
> extremely unlikely you'll ever find any of them in circulation!
> --
> Arwel Parry
> http://www.cartref.demon.co.uk/
Sep 18th 2003, 5:30 pm
#63
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: What's the equivalent of a Euro "cent"?
"JX Bardant" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> > That sounds like France.
> The French for "cent" is actually "centime".
> > Those 1 centesimo pieces are hard to find these days.
> I find them almost only at the baker's and at the grocer's.
> Isn't this non-availability of small coins in Italy one of the reasons
> for this consumer boycott day ?
So they still have the bag of sweets behind the counter then?
Tim
news:[email protected]...
> > That sounds like France.
> The French for "cent" is actually "centime".
> > Those 1 centesimo pieces are hard to find these days.
> I find them almost only at the baker's and at the grocer's.
> Isn't this non-availability of small coins in Italy one of the reasons
> for this consumer boycott day ?
So they still have the bag of sweets behind the counter then?
Tim
Sep 18th 2003, 5:32 pm
#64
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: What's the equivalent of a Euro "cent"?
Hatunen <[email protected]> wrote:
> [email protected] (Henry) wrote:
>> Erm...'legal tender' _means_ that you can spend them.
> But it does not mean that they must be accepted in payment.
Exactly. Otherwise I could go buy a car and then hand over a truckload of
one-cent coins and demand that they accept them.
Or likewise a stick of gum with a e500 note.
miguel
--
Hit The Road! Photos and tales from around the world: http://travel.u.nu
Site remodeled 10-Sept-2003: Hundreds of new photos, easier navigation.
> [email protected] (Henry) wrote:
>> Erm...'legal tender' _means_ that you can spend them.
> But it does not mean that they must be accepted in payment.
Exactly. Otherwise I could go buy a car and then hand over a truckload of
one-cent coins and demand that they accept them.
Or likewise a stick of gum with a e500 note.
miguel
--
Hit The Road! Photos and tales from around the world: http://travel.u.nu
Site remodeled 10-Sept-2003: Hundreds of new photos, easier navigation.
Sep 18th 2003, 5:35 pm
#65
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: What's the equivalent of a Euro "cent"?
On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 20:11:39 +0200, Wolfgang Schwanke
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Hatunen <[email protected]> wrote in
>news:[email protected]:
>> On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 18:45:42 +0100, Padraig Breathnach
>><[email protected]> wrote:
>>> If, for example, I order a meal in a restaurant I
>>>become indebted to the restaurateur. If, in a eurozone country, I
>>>tender payment in US$, the restaurateur may refuse, and I am still in
>>>debt. If I tender payment in euros, and the restaurateur refuses, he
>>>will have no joy if he later sues me for payment; my defence will be
>>>that I offered legal tender.
>>
>> That has nothing to do wiht it.
>Padraig's description is on the point what "legal tender" means.
>> The restaurant has posted the
>> price in euros and if you order from the menu you have a
>> contractual obligation to pay in euros. That's contract law and
>> has nothing to do with legal tenderness.
>"Legal tender" means: The default method of payment for debts, which is
>enforced automatically unless a contract states specifically otherwhise.
>Posting "euros" is not quite it. The customer might offer to pay by cheque,
>credit card, money order or whatever. If the contract doesn't specifically
>mention that these payment methods are acceptable *), they are not, and the
>default legal tender sets in.
You need a legal cite for your definiton of "legal tender". As I
say elsewhere, I'm having trouble finding an EU definition and,
of course, EU law prevails in this case, but the US, Australian
and UK meanings have been cited here and none requires that money
designated legal tender need be accepted.
>*) Circumstantial agreements, such as having credit card stickers on the
>window, posting one's account number, etc., count as part of the contract.
Indeed, it is a contracutal thing and not a legal tender thing.
But I don't think having a Visa logo in the window legally
requires the owner to take a Visa card, save through his contract
with Visa.
************* DAVE HATUNEN ([email protected]) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Hatunen <[email protected]> wrote in
>news:[email protected]:
>> On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 18:45:42 +0100, Padraig Breathnach
>><[email protected]> wrote:
>>> If, for example, I order a meal in a restaurant I
>>>become indebted to the restaurateur. If, in a eurozone country, I
>>>tender payment in US$, the restaurateur may refuse, and I am still in
>>>debt. If I tender payment in euros, and the restaurateur refuses, he
>>>will have no joy if he later sues me for payment; my defence will be
>>>that I offered legal tender.
>>
>> That has nothing to do wiht it.
>Padraig's description is on the point what "legal tender" means.
>> The restaurant has posted the
>> price in euros and if you order from the menu you have a
>> contractual obligation to pay in euros. That's contract law and
>> has nothing to do with legal tenderness.
>"Legal tender" means: The default method of payment for debts, which is
>enforced automatically unless a contract states specifically otherwhise.
>Posting "euros" is not quite it. The customer might offer to pay by cheque,
>credit card, money order or whatever. If the contract doesn't specifically
>mention that these payment methods are acceptable *), they are not, and the
>default legal tender sets in.
You need a legal cite for your definiton of "legal tender". As I
say elsewhere, I'm having trouble finding an EU definition and,
of course, EU law prevails in this case, but the US, Australian
and UK meanings have been cited here and none requires that money
designated legal tender need be accepted.
>*) Circumstantial agreements, such as having credit card stickers on the
>window, posting one's account number, etc., count as part of the contract.
Indeed, it is a contracutal thing and not a legal tender thing.
But I don't think having a Visa logo in the window legally
requires the owner to take a Visa card, save through his contract
with Visa.
************* DAVE HATUNEN ([email protected]) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *
Sep 18th 2003, 5:36 pm
#66
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: What's the equivalent of a Euro "cent"?
On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 20:12:33 +0200, Wolfgang Schwanke
<[email protected]> wrote:
>[email protected] (Miguel Cruz) wrote in
>news:M_lab.10153$3%[email protected]:
>> Hatunen <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> [email protected] (Henry) wrote:
>>>> Erm...'legal tender' _means_ that you can spend them.
>>> But it does not mean that they must be accepted in payment.
>>
>> Exactly. Otherwise I could go buy a car and then hand over a truckload of
>> one-cent coins and demand that they accept them.
>No, as the law contains regulations about up to what amount coins have to
>be accepted.
The only laws cited so far relieve the vendor of having to accept
more than a certain amount of coins, not how much coinage must be
accepted. Please cite the law for your claim.
************* DAVE HATUNEN ([email protected]) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *
<[email protected]> wrote:
>[email protected] (Miguel Cruz) wrote in
>news:M_lab.10153$3%[email protected]:
>> Hatunen <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> [email protected] (Henry) wrote:
>>>> Erm...'legal tender' _means_ that you can spend them.
>>> But it does not mean that they must be accepted in payment.
>>
>> Exactly. Otherwise I could go buy a car and then hand over a truckload of
>> one-cent coins and demand that they accept them.
>No, as the law contains regulations about up to what amount coins have to
>be accepted.
The only laws cited so far relieve the vendor of having to accept
more than a certain amount of coins, not how much coinage must be
accepted. Please cite the law for your claim.
************* DAVE HATUNEN ([email protected]) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *
Sep 18th 2003, 5:45 pm
#67
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: What's the equivalent of a Euro "cent"?
Hatunen <[email protected]> wrote:
>On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 16:40:17 +0300, [email protected] (Henry)
>wrote:
>>Erm...'legal tender' _means_ that you can spend them.
>But it does not mean that they must be accepted in payment.
That's exactly what it does mean -- that which must be accepted in
payment of a debt. If, for example, I order a meal in a restaurant I
become indebted to the restaurateur. If, in a eurozone country, I
tender payment in US$, the restaurateur may refuse, and I am still in
debt. If I tender payment in euros, and the restaurateur refuses, he
will have no joy if he later sues me for payment; my defence will be
that I offered legal tender.
PB
>On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 16:40:17 +0300, [email protected] (Henry)
>wrote:
>>Erm...'legal tender' _means_ that you can spend them.
>But it does not mean that they must be accepted in payment.
That's exactly what it does mean -- that which must be accepted in
payment of a debt. If, for example, I order a meal in a restaurant I
become indebted to the restaurateur. If, in a eurozone country, I
tender payment in US$, the restaurateur may refuse, and I am still in
debt. If I tender payment in euros, and the restaurateur refuses, he
will have no joy if he later sues me for payment; my defence will be
that I offered legal tender.
PB
Sep 18th 2003, 5:52 pm
#68
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: What's the equivalent of a Euro "cent"?
"Hatunen" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 14:08:48 +0100, "Keith Willshaw"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >The definition of legal tender in UK law is
> >
> >That currency, or money, which the law authorizes a debtor to
> >tender and requires a creditor to receive.
>
> Do you have a cite for that passage in UK law?
unlikely to be easy to find, it is some hundred years old.
Note, that the debt has to exist before the payment is offered, walking up
to the cash desk, selected purchase in one hand, coins in the other is
not a situation where legal tender has to be accepted.
Ok, found a reference that maybe you'll believe, still no definitive
act though:
http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/bankn...egaltender.htm
Tim
>
> ************* DAVE HATUNEN ([email protected]) *************
> * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
> * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *
> On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 14:08:48 +0100, "Keith Willshaw"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >The definition of legal tender in UK law is
> >
> >That currency, or money, which the law authorizes a debtor to
> >tender and requires a creditor to receive.
>
> Do you have a cite for that passage in UK law?
unlikely to be easy to find, it is some hundred years old.
Note, that the debt has to exist before the payment is offered, walking up
to the cash desk, selected purchase in one hand, coins in the other is
not a situation where legal tender has to be accepted.
Ok, found a reference that maybe you'll believe, still no definitive
act though:
http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/bankn...egaltender.htm
Tim
>
> ************* DAVE HATUNEN ([email protected]) *************
> * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
> * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *
Sep 18th 2003, 6:06 pm
#69
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: What's the equivalent of a Euro "cent"?
"Herbie Jurvanen" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> In <1g1hrqm.prxhmvpz9c6iN%[email protected]>, Henry wrote:
>
> > In general, the Finnish one and two cent coins are not available
> > anywhere, even from the Bank of Finland. Quoting from their website
>
> They may not be available directly from the BoF but they are definitely
> available. Off the top of my head I can name four places right in the center
> in Helsinki where you can buy them (at a markup, of course, since they are
> mostly for the collector's market).
A quick google finds many places selling them to collectors (individually
and in sets) and some confirmation that the finnish mint do mint them for
theoretical circulation (though they don't appear to ever get that far).
I don't know what other's think, but personally I have a problem with this
government sponsored racketeering. This "the coin exists but we don't
make it approach" artificially inflates the value of the coins for the few
people who know how to get them. There are IME a very large number
of ordinary European citizens (of other countries) who are aiming to collect
the set (of sets) for nothing more than 'fun' and sooner or later these people
are going to have the other 94 (I'm up to 45!) and some of them (not me)
are going to feel obliged to shell out a relatively extortionate sum for
3 cents of coins (100 times FV seems usual) to complete the set.
Tim
>
>
> --
> Herbie J.
> Famous Curator
> In <1g1hrqm.prxhmvpz9c6iN%[email protected]>, Henry wrote:
>
> > In general, the Finnish one and two cent coins are not available
> > anywhere, even from the Bank of Finland. Quoting from their website
>
> They may not be available directly from the BoF but they are definitely
> available. Off the top of my head I can name four places right in the center
> in Helsinki where you can buy them (at a markup, of course, since they are
> mostly for the collector's market).
A quick google finds many places selling them to collectors (individually
and in sets) and some confirmation that the finnish mint do mint them for
theoretical circulation (though they don't appear to ever get that far).
I don't know what other's think, but personally I have a problem with this
government sponsored racketeering. This "the coin exists but we don't
make it approach" artificially inflates the value of the coins for the few
people who know how to get them. There are IME a very large number
of ordinary European citizens (of other countries) who are aiming to collect
the set (of sets) for nothing more than 'fun' and sooner or later these people
are going to have the other 94 (I'm up to 45!) and some of them (not me)
are going to feel obliged to shell out a relatively extortionate sum for
3 cents of coins (100 times FV seems usual) to complete the set.
Tim
>
>
> --
> Herbie J.
> Famous Curator
Sep 18th 2003, 6:11 pm
#70
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: What's the equivalent of a Euro "cent"?
Hatunen <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 18:45:42 +0100, Padraig Breathnach
><[email protected]> wrote:
>> If, for example, I order a meal in a restaurant I
>>become indebted to the restaurateur. If, in a eurozone country, I
>>tender payment in US$, the restaurateur may refuse, and I am still in
>>debt. If I tender payment in euros, and the restaurateur refuses, he
>>will have no joy if he later sues me for payment; my defence will be
>>that I offered legal tender.
>
> That has nothing to do wiht it.
Padraig's description is on the point what "legal tender" means.
> The restaurant has posted the
> price in euros and if you order from the menu you have a
> contractual obligation to pay in euros. That's contract law and
> has nothing to do with legal tenderness.
"Legal tender" means: The default method of payment for debts, which is
enforced automatically unless a contract states specifically otherwhise.
Posting "euros" is not quite it. The customer might offer to pay by cheque,
credit card, money order or whatever. If the contract doesn't specifically
mention that these payment methods are acceptable *), they are not, and the
default legal tender sets in.
*) Circumstantial agreements, such as having credit card stickers on the
window, posting one's account number, etc., count as part of the contract.
Regards
--
Liechtenstein liefert in rhythmischen Abständen Grieß, Mayonnaise,
Meerrettich, Schlämmkreide und Pappplatten sowie Medikamente gegen
Halskatarrh und Hämorrhoiden numeriert und in Stanniol verpackt an
Libyen und Hawaii
news:[email protected]:
> On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 18:45:42 +0100, Padraig Breathnach
><[email protected]> wrote:
>> If, for example, I order a meal in a restaurant I
>>become indebted to the restaurateur. If, in a eurozone country, I
>>tender payment in US$, the restaurateur may refuse, and I am still in
>>debt. If I tender payment in euros, and the restaurateur refuses, he
>>will have no joy if he later sues me for payment; my defence will be
>>that I offered legal tender.
>
> That has nothing to do wiht it.
Padraig's description is on the point what "legal tender" means.
> The restaurant has posted the
> price in euros and if you order from the menu you have a
> contractual obligation to pay in euros. That's contract law and
> has nothing to do with legal tenderness.
"Legal tender" means: The default method of payment for debts, which is
enforced automatically unless a contract states specifically otherwhise.
Posting "euros" is not quite it. The customer might offer to pay by cheque,
credit card, money order or whatever. If the contract doesn't specifically
mention that these payment methods are acceptable *), they are not, and the
default legal tender sets in.
*) Circumstantial agreements, such as having credit card stickers on the
window, posting one's account number, etc., count as part of the contract.
Regards
--
Liechtenstein liefert in rhythmischen Abständen Grieß, Mayonnaise,
Meerrettich, Schlämmkreide und Pappplatten sowie Medikamente gegen
Halskatarrh und Hämorrhoiden numeriert und in Stanniol verpackt an
Libyen und Hawaii
Sep 18th 2003, 6:12 pm
#71
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: What's the equivalent of a Euro "cent"?
[email protected] (Miguel Cruz) wrote in
news:M_lab.10153$3%[email protected]:
> Hatunen <[email protected]> wrote:
>> [email protected] (Henry) wrote:
>>> Erm...'legal tender' _means_ that you can spend them.
>> But it does not mean that they must be accepted in payment.
>
> Exactly. Otherwise I could go buy a car and then hand over a truckload of
> one-cent coins and demand that they accept them.
No, as the law contains regulations about up to what amount coins have to
be accepted.
Regards
--
Liechtenstein liefert in rhythmischen Abständen Grieß, Mayonnaise,
Meerrettich, Schlämmkreide und Pappplatten sowie Medikamente gegen
Halskatarrh und Hämorrhoiden numeriert und in Stanniol verpackt an
Libyen und Hawaii
news:M_lab.10153$3%[email protected]:
> Hatunen <[email protected]> wrote:
>> [email protected] (Henry) wrote:
>>> Erm...'legal tender' _means_ that you can spend them.
>> But it does not mean that they must be accepted in payment.
>
> Exactly. Otherwise I could go buy a car and then hand over a truckload of
> one-cent coins and demand that they accept them.
No, as the law contains regulations about up to what amount coins have to
be accepted.
Regards
--
Liechtenstein liefert in rhythmischen Abständen Grieß, Mayonnaise,
Meerrettich, Schlämmkreide und Pappplatten sowie Medikamente gegen
Halskatarrh und Hämorrhoiden numeriert und in Stanniol verpackt an
Libyen und Hawaii
Sep 18th 2003, 6:22 pm
#72
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: What's the equivalent of a Euro "cent"?
well
as far as I know
vatican coins are offered at about 1000 eur
the first issue, and about 500 eur the second
monaco about 350 eur for each of the 3 issues
san marino about 400 for each of the 2 issues
you will have to pay a few cents more.. if you want them.
apparently
vatican and san marino issued about
10.000 complete sets.
I have the second issue of vatican to trade with
monaco sets..
if you are interested
that is
1 vatican second issue for the 3 monaco issues.
the official price was
18 eur for the first issue of vatican and san marino
40 eur for the second san marino set
including a 5 eur coin
18 eur for the second vatican set.
let me add that both san marino and vatican have a very efficient and kind
numismatic office..
that provides at least one set ( first come first served) to collectors
booking in advance.
a credit card payement is accepted.
normally
1000 sets are sold on the first day of issue
one set for each person in the (huge) line.
this info is for the real collectors..
vatican and san marino are allowed to mint
every year a certain amount of coins.
the sole exception being for vatican
in case of death of the pope
( sede vacante-- vacant siege coin)
and in case of Anno santo Holy year.
"tim" <[email protected]> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:[email protected]...
> "Herbie Jurvanen" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> > In <1g1hrqm.prxhmvpz9c6iN%[email protected]>, Henry wrote:
> >
> > > In general, the Finnish one and two cent coins are not available
> > > anywhere, even from the Bank of Finland. Quoting from their website
> >
> > They may not be available directly from the BoF but they are definitely
> > available. Off the top of my head I can name four places right in the
center
> > in Helsinki where you can buy them (at a markup, of course, since they
are
> > mostly for the collector's market).
> A quick google finds many places selling them to collectors (individually
> and in sets) and some confirmation that the finnish mint do mint them for
> theoretical circulation (though they don't appear to ever get that far).
> I don't know what other's think, but personally I have a problem with this
> government sponsored racketeering. This "the coin exists but we don't
> make it approach" artificially inflates the value of the coins for the few
> people who know how to get them. There are IME a very large number
> of ordinary European citizens (of other countries) who are aiming to
collect
> the set (of sets) for nothing more than 'fun' and sooner or later these
people
> are going to have the other 94 (I'm up to 45!) and some of them (not me)
> are going to feel obliged to shell out a relatively extortionate sum for
> 3 cents of coins (100 times FV seems usual) to complete the set.
> Tim
> >
> >
> > --
> > Herbie J.
> > Famous Curator
as far as I know
vatican coins are offered at about 1000 eur
the first issue, and about 500 eur the second
monaco about 350 eur for each of the 3 issues
san marino about 400 for each of the 2 issues
you will have to pay a few cents more.. if you want them.
apparently
vatican and san marino issued about
10.000 complete sets.
I have the second issue of vatican to trade with
monaco sets..
if you are interested
that is
1 vatican second issue for the 3 monaco issues.
the official price was
18 eur for the first issue of vatican and san marino
40 eur for the second san marino set
including a 5 eur coin
18 eur for the second vatican set.
let me add that both san marino and vatican have a very efficient and kind
numismatic office..
that provides at least one set ( first come first served) to collectors
booking in advance.
a credit card payement is accepted.
normally
1000 sets are sold on the first day of issue
one set for each person in the (huge) line.
this info is for the real collectors..
vatican and san marino are allowed to mint
every year a certain amount of coins.
the sole exception being for vatican
in case of death of the pope
( sede vacante-- vacant siege coin)
and in case of Anno santo Holy year.
"tim" <[email protected]> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:[email protected]...
> "Herbie Jurvanen" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> > In <1g1hrqm.prxhmvpz9c6iN%[email protected]>, Henry wrote:
> >
> > > In general, the Finnish one and two cent coins are not available
> > > anywhere, even from the Bank of Finland. Quoting from their website
> >
> > They may not be available directly from the BoF but they are definitely
> > available. Off the top of my head I can name four places right in the
center
> > in Helsinki where you can buy them (at a markup, of course, since they
are
> > mostly for the collector's market).
> A quick google finds many places selling them to collectors (individually
> and in sets) and some confirmation that the finnish mint do mint them for
> theoretical circulation (though they don't appear to ever get that far).
> I don't know what other's think, but personally I have a problem with this
> government sponsored racketeering. This "the coin exists but we don't
> make it approach" artificially inflates the value of the coins for the few
> people who know how to get them. There are IME a very large number
> of ordinary European citizens (of other countries) who are aiming to
collect
> the set (of sets) for nothing more than 'fun' and sooner or later these
people
> are going to have the other 94 (I'm up to 45!) and some of them (not me)
> are going to feel obliged to shell out a relatively extortionate sum for
> 3 cents of coins (100 times FV seems usual) to complete the set.
> Tim
> >
> >
> > --
> > Herbie J.
> > Famous Curator
Sep 18th 2003, 7:09 pm
#73
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: What's the equivalent of a Euro "cent"?
On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 21:47:10 +0200, Mxsmanic
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Hatunen writes:
>> But it does not mean that they must be accepted in payment.
>Yes, it does, as long as it is exact change.
Wrong.
************* DAVE HATUNEN ([email protected]) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Hatunen writes:
>> But it does not mean that they must be accepted in payment.
>Yes, it does, as long as it is exact change.
Wrong.
************* DAVE HATUNEN ([email protected]) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *
Sep 18th 2003, 7:14 pm
#74
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: What's the equivalent of a Euro "cent"?
On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 21:52:25 +0200, "tim"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>"Hatunen" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>> On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 19:52:59 +0200, "tim"
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >"Hatunen" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>> >> On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 14:08:48 +0100, "Keith Willshaw"
>> >> <[email protected]> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >The definition of legal tender in UK law is
>> >> >
>> >> >That currency, or money, which the law authorizes a debtor to
>> >> >tender and requires a creditor to receive.
>> >>
>> >> Do you have a cite for that passage in UK law?
>> >
>> >unlikely to be easy to find, it is some hundred years old.
>> >
>> >Note, that the debt has to exist before the payment is offered, walking up
>> >to the cash desk, selected purchase in one hand, coins in the other is
>> >not a situation where legal tender has to be accepted.
>> >
>> >Ok, found a reference that maybe you'll believe, still no definitive
>> >act though:
>> >
>> >http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/bankn...egaltender.htm
>>
>> It says "The concept of legal tender is often misunderstood.
>> Contrary to popular opinion, legal tender is not a means of
>> payment that must be accepted by the parties to a transaction,
>> but rather a legally defined means of payment that should not be
>> refused by a creditor in satisfaction of a debt. "
>>
>> Seems pretty clear to me: legal tender doesn't have to be
>> accepted but it should be.
>So it can't be clear, because that is wrong.
Because you say so?
>LT must always be accepted in payment of an established debt.
No. Certainly not in the US, Australia or the UK.
>It can categorically be rejected if offered before the contract is formed.
Sure, but that's a matter of contract law. if I make a deal to
buy 10,000 television sets and the payment is to be in bananas,
and the seller agrees, so be it.
>There is never a: might be, could be, maybe option.
>This is the UK definition only, it has no bearing on other countryies'
>definition(s) of the term
We've already cited the USA and Australia as well. I can't, so
far, speak to the EU, and no one has supplied any Eu verbiage.
The problem is that many people think "legal tender" has some
meaning that it doesn't. As I quoted the Bank of England above,
"The concept of legal tender is often misunderstood."
************* DAVE HATUNEN ([email protected]) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *
<[email protected]> wrote:
>"Hatunen" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>> On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 19:52:59 +0200, "tim"
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >"Hatunen" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>> >> On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 14:08:48 +0100, "Keith Willshaw"
>> >> <[email protected]> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >The definition of legal tender in UK law is
>> >> >
>> >> >That currency, or money, which the law authorizes a debtor to
>> >> >tender and requires a creditor to receive.
>> >>
>> >> Do you have a cite for that passage in UK law?
>> >
>> >unlikely to be easy to find, it is some hundred years old.
>> >
>> >Note, that the debt has to exist before the payment is offered, walking up
>> >to the cash desk, selected purchase in one hand, coins in the other is
>> >not a situation where legal tender has to be accepted.
>> >
>> >Ok, found a reference that maybe you'll believe, still no definitive
>> >act though:
>> >
>> >http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/bankn...egaltender.htm
>>
>> It says "The concept of legal tender is often misunderstood.
>> Contrary to popular opinion, legal tender is not a means of
>> payment that must be accepted by the parties to a transaction,
>> but rather a legally defined means of payment that should not be
>> refused by a creditor in satisfaction of a debt. "
>>
>> Seems pretty clear to me: legal tender doesn't have to be
>> accepted but it should be.
>So it can't be clear, because that is wrong.
Because you say so?
>LT must always be accepted in payment of an established debt.
No. Certainly not in the US, Australia or the UK.
>It can categorically be rejected if offered before the contract is formed.
Sure, but that's a matter of contract law. if I make a deal to
buy 10,000 television sets and the payment is to be in bananas,
and the seller agrees, so be it.
>There is never a: might be, could be, maybe option.
>This is the UK definition only, it has no bearing on other countryies'
>definition(s) of the term
We've already cited the USA and Australia as well. I can't, so
far, speak to the EU, and no one has supplied any Eu verbiage.
The problem is that many people think "legal tender" has some
meaning that it doesn't. As I quoted the Bank of England above,
"The concept of legal tender is often misunderstood."
************* DAVE HATUNEN ([email protected]) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *
Sep 18th 2003, 7:17 pm
#75
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: What's the equivalent of a Euro "cent"?
On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 21:49:53 +0200, Mxsmanic
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Mark Hewitt writes:
>> However traders are not obligated to accept anything at all.
>Once they have entered into a sales contract, they are obligated to
>accept payment in legal tender.
They are obliged to accept payment in whatever commodity the
contract calls for.
>That means that once a Finnish merchant
>has agreed to sell you something, he must accept payment in euro,
Only if that's what the contract states. A great many contracts
in many countries actually call for payment in US dollars,
regardless of local currency, and the EU is very much hoping the
euro will also become such a currency.
>including the one- and two-cent coins. He need not make change, but he
>cannot refuse correct change.
>> They could choose to refuse ?5 notes if they didn't
>> like the colour of them, for example!
>No. The notion of legal tender is designed to prevent this. It
>provides a medium of exchange that _cannot_ be selectively refused as
>payment for a debt.
But as a matter of contract, not of legal tender. The term "legal
tender" means a great deal less than most people, and some
dictionaries, think.
************* DAVE HATUNEN ([email protected]) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Mark Hewitt writes:
>> However traders are not obligated to accept anything at all.
>Once they have entered into a sales contract, they are obligated to
>accept payment in legal tender.
They are obliged to accept payment in whatever commodity the
contract calls for.
>That means that once a Finnish merchant
>has agreed to sell you something, he must accept payment in euro,
Only if that's what the contract states. A great many contracts
in many countries actually call for payment in US dollars,
regardless of local currency, and the EU is very much hoping the
euro will also become such a currency.
>including the one- and two-cent coins. He need not make change, but he
>cannot refuse correct change.
>> They could choose to refuse ?5 notes if they didn't
>> like the colour of them, for example!
>No. The notion of legal tender is designed to prevent this. It
>provides a medium of exchange that _cannot_ be selectively refused as
>payment for a debt.
But as a matter of contract, not of legal tender. The term "legal
tender" means a great deal less than most people, and some
dictionaries, think.
************* DAVE HATUNEN ([email protected]) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *