nitram

On Fri, 03 Sep 2004 18:35:28 +0200, B Vaughan<[email protected]> wrote:

    >On Thu, 02 Sep 2004 23:52:43 +0200, [email protected] wrote:

    >>>I'm happy to report that the "shelf" toilet appears to be gradually
    >>>disappearing in Germany. Such a senseless and impractical design,
    >>>very un-German! They were ubiquituous when I lived there in the 60s,
    >>>but I've encountered fewer and fewer of them in the past decade, and
    >>>while in Berlin last year I didn't see any. All the fixtures that I
    >>>encountered (not many, I admit, and all in modern establishments) were
    >>>in the American style.
    >>So how are Germans supposed to answer the doctor's first question
    >>"What do your stools look like today?"
    >I was told that the purpose of the shelf was to allow a careful
    >examination of the shit.

Hence my question.

    >It certainly allowed everybody within 50 meters to evaluate the smell.

Yes!

You win a suppository.

Icono Clast

B Vaughan wrote:
    > Someone had recently posted statistics showing Italians to be among
    > the slimmest people in Europe. Coincidentally, I recently saw another
    > two articles on the subject. One that quoted a 6% figure for Italian
    > obesity, but said that the weights used in the survey were
    > self-reported. The article admitted that they were probably
    > understated.

That's the kind of thing I have a tendency to notice. I do not recall
noticing obesity in my recent trips to London, Paris, and Italy.

What I did notice in Italy was an unusual proportion of bad skin,
i.e., pimples and the like.

In London I received an injury that caused me to visit a hospital.
While there, I thought I'd weigh myself. The staff had a hell of a
time finding a scale commenting about USAans, ". . . because you're
all fat". At that time, my BMI was about 24.9. The highest mine's
ever been is 25.1.
__________________________________________________ ___________
A San Franciscan in 47.335 mile² San Francisco
http://geocities.com/dancefest/ http://geocities.com/iconoc/
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Jesper Lauridsen

On 2004-09-02, Watcher <[email protected]> wrote:
    > B Vaughan<[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>. ..
    >>
    >> However, Italian toilets don't have a shelf, in general. In the small
    >> German speaking region (Alto Adige), I've seen them. The shelf toilet
    >> is typical of all Germanic-language countries, with the possible
    >> exception of Scandinavia (I can't remember if they have them.)

In my life, which has included countless toilet visits in Germanic-language
countries, I've encountered the shelf toilet exactly twice. And I know
that one of those, has now been converted to a standard type.

It's time to put the shelf-myth to rest.

    > All the fixtures that I
    > encountered (not many, I admit, and all in modern establishments) were
    > in the American style.

No, the American style is to use a lot of water, and get very little
flush in return.

Tim Challenger

On 06 Sep 2004 13:29:02 GMT, Jesper Lauridsen wrote:

    > On 2004-09-02, Watcher <[email protected]> wrote:
    >> B Vaughan<[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>. ..
    >>>
    >>> However, Italian toilets don't have a shelf, in general. In the small
    >>> German speaking region (Alto Adige), I've seen them. The shelf toilet
    >>> is typical of all Germanic-language countries, with the possible
    >>> exception of Scandinavia (I can't remember if they have them.)
    >
    > In my life, which has included countless toilet visits in Germanic-language
    > countries, I've encountered the shelf toilet exactly twice. And I know
    > that one of those, has now been converted to a standard type.
    >
    > It's time to put the shelf-myth to rest.
    >
    >> All the fixtures that I
    >> encountered (not many, I admit, and all in modern establishments) were
    >> in the American style.
    >
    > No, the American style is to use a lot of water, and get very little
    > flush in return.

I've encountered them all the time and still do. I have the feeling they're
becoming less common, but new buildings still often have them.

--
Tim C.

Tim Challenger

On 2 Sep 2004 02:37:48 -0700, JX Bardant wrote:

    > I spent just one day in Trieste during a trip to Slovenia so I won't
    > even find 5 things...
    >
    > 1/ I was surprised to have to pay about twice the price written for
    > the menu in a restaurant because many things which I would have
    > expected to be included in this price were not (bread, water, etc.)
    > 2/ I've never drunk a coffee as nice as I drank there, nor as strong.
    > 3/ I remember a nice couple who not only explained me how to get back
    > to Ljubljana but actually took their car to show me the way.

I've never noticed being charged extra for bread in Italy. An occasional
cover charge maybe.

In Austria, sure, everything is extra there.
--
Tim C.

Karen Selwyn

Jesper Lauridsen wrote:
>
    > In my life, which has included countless toilet visits in Germanic-language
    > countries, I've encountered the shelf toilet exactly twice. And I know
    > that one of those, has now been converted to a standard type.
    >
    > It's time to put the shelf-myth to rest.

I'm not quite certain how a German-built boat intended for use on the
rivers and canals of Russia fits into the category of "Germanic-language
countries" but the shelf-toilet is the standard commode design on these
vessels.

Karen Selwyn

Jenn

Jesper Lauridsen wrote:

    > On 2004-09-02, Watcher <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >>B Vaughan<[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>. ..
    >>>However, Italian toilets don't have a shelf, in general. In the small
    >>>German speaking region (Alto Adige), I've seen them. The shelf toilet
    >>>is typical of all Germanic-language countries, with the possible
    >>>exception of Scandinavia (I can't remember if they have them.)
    >
    >
    > In my life, which has included countless toilet visits in Germanic-language
    > countries, I've encountered the shelf toilet exactly twice. And I know
    > that one of those, has now been converted to a standard type.
    >
    > It's time to put the shelf-myth to rest.

I lived in Germany for a year several decades ago and they virtually ALL
had the shelf

glad to see progress has been made
    >
    >
    >>All the fixtures that I
    >>encountered (not many, I admit, and all in modern establishments) were
    >>in the American style.
    >
    >
    > No, the American style is to use a lot of water, and get very little
    > flush in return.

Jenn

Tim Challenger wrote:

    > On 2 Sep 2004 02:37:48 -0700, JX Bardant wrote:
    >
    >
    >>I spent just one day in Trieste during a trip to Slovenia so I won't
    >>even find 5 things...
    >>1/ I was surprised to have to pay about twice the price written for
    >>the menu in a restaurant because many things which I would have
    >>expected to be included in this price were not (bread, water, etc.)
    >>2/ I've never drunk a coffee as nice as I drank there, nor as strong.
    >>3/ I remember a nice couple who not only explained me how to get back
    >>to Ljubljana but actually took their car to show me the way.
    >
    >
    > I've never noticed being charged extra for bread in Italy. An occasional
    > cover charge maybe.
    >
    > In Austria, sure, everything is extra there.


no American restaurant charges a 'cover' charge for the forks and bread
basket -- so it is a shock to Americans the first couple times they stop
somewhere for lunch and find themselves paying 2-3 Euro a head just to
sit at that table

that is certainly 'charging' for bread -- and tourists need to make
other plans if they want reasonably priced lunches and just factor it
into the dinner costs -- add 3 Euro a head for a party of 5 and you have
bought another meal in costs

Padraig Breathnach

jenn <[email protected]> wrote:

    >no American restaurant charges a 'cover' charge for the forks and bread
    >basket -- so it is a shock to Americans the first couple times they stop
    >somewhere for lunch and find themselves paying 2-3 Euro a head just to
    >sit at that table
    >that is certainly 'charging' for bread -- and tourists need to make
    >other plans if they want reasonably priced lunches and just factor it
    >into the dinner costs -- add 3 Euro a head for a party of 5 and you have
    >bought another meal in costs

True. But if a European seeks to eat in, for example, NYC, there is
the imposition of tax as an extra, whereas it is the general European
pattern that taxes are included in the menu price. And as for tips...

I like the French tradition, where the price stated on the menu is the
price you pay. No mandatory or expected extras, no undeclared price
components.

--
PB
The return address has been MUNGED

Jenn

Padraig Breathnach wrote:

    > jenn <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >
    >>no American restaurant charges a 'cover' charge for the forks and bread
    >>basket -- so it is a shock to Americans the first couple times they stop
    >>somewhere for lunch and find themselves paying 2-3 Euro a head just to
    >>sit at that table
    >>that is certainly 'charging' for bread -- and tourists need to make
    >>other plans if they want reasonably priced lunches and just factor it
    >>into the dinner costs -- add 3 Euro a head for a party of 5 and you have
    >>bought another meal in costs
    >
    >
    > True. But if a European seeks to eat in, for example, NYC, there is
    > the imposition of tax as an extra, whereas it is the general European
    > pattern that taxes are included in the menu price. And as for tips...
    >
    > I like the French tradition, where the price stated on the menu is the
    > price you pay. No mandatory or expected extras, no undeclared price
    > components.
    >

I certainly agree -- and taxes are always an unwelcome surprise for
European tourists who are used to their hefty VAT taxes being part of
the price -- hotel rooms are the worst -- It can easily add 20$ a night
to a room just for local taxes.

Icono Clast

jenn wrote:
    > Tim Challenger wrote:
    >> I've never noticed being charged extra for bread in Italy. An occasional
    >> cover charge maybe.
    >
    > no American restaurant charges a 'cover' charge for the forks and bread
    > basket --

Most places, regardless of price category, usually replace/fill the
bread basket should it be emptied. Never a charge. Same's true of
every American country I've visited and that's all of 'em except
Paraguay, Nicaragua, El Salvador, Cuba, Belize, and the former Guianas.

    > so it is a shock to Americans the first couple times they stop
    > somewhere for lunch and find themselves paying 2-3 Euro a head just to
    > sit at that table

Indeed it is! The worst case we found was:

On the train from Roma to Milano to get our flight home, the maitre
d'hôtel came around taking reservations for a rather expensive lunch.

When the time came, I sat and was served a very nice lunch. Even
though she was not hungry, did not reserve a seat, touched nothing,
not even a crumb of bread or a drop of water, the bill was 20%
greater than expected. I complained, of course. "Cuperto per ella" or
something. I protested: She touched, ate, drank, nothing. "She sat
there, you pay the cover!". That was grossly unfair and made our
penultimate day in Italy one of a bad impression.

I later asked her why she had joined me. "I thought you didn't want
to eat alone." Hell, I couldn't've cared less. We'd been together
almost constantly, comfortably so, for almost three weeks. An hour
alone would've been welcome.
__________________________________________________ __________
A San Franciscan in (where else?) San Francisco
http://geocities.com/dancefest/ http://geocities.com/iconoc/
ICQ: http://wwp.mirabilis.com/19098103 IClast at SFbay Net

The Reids

Following up to Miss L. Toe

    >So why are so few Italians overweight. with such wonderful food and so long
    >to eat ?

I reckon you get fat eating fast not slow. Also Italians seem to
drink only a little alcohol and just have a tiny coffee for
breakfast.
--
Mike Reid
If god wanted us to be vegetarians he wouldn't have made animals out of meat.
Wasdale-Lake district-Thames path-London "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" <-- you can email us@ this site
Eat-walk-Spain "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk" <-- dontuse@ all, it's a spamtrap

The Reids

Following up to B Vaughan

    >These are not at all common in Italy. I would say they are vastly
    >outnumbered even in train stations.

I haven't seen one for years.
--
Mike Reid
If god wanted us to be vegetarians he wouldn't have made animals out of meat.
Wasdale-Lake district-Thames path-London "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" <-- you can email us@ this site
Eat-walk-Spain "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk" <-- dontuse@ all, it's a spamtrap

Jesper Lauridsen

On 2004-09-06, Tim Challenger <[email protected]> wrote:
    > On 06 Sep 2004 13:29:02 GMT, Jesper Lauridsen wrote:
    >> In my life, which has included countless toilet visits in Germanic-language
    >> countries, I've encountered the shelf toilet exactly twice. And I know
    >> that one of those, has now been converted to a standard type.
    > I've encountered them all the time and still do. I have the feeling they're
    > becoming less common, but new buildings still often have them.

It must be an Austria thing then. I've not seen them in Austria, but I've
only visited the areas around Salzburg and Innsbruck.

Mimi

"Tim Challenger" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > On 2 Sep 2004 02:37:48 -0700, JX Bardant wrote:
    >> I spent just one day in Trieste during a trip to Slovenia so I won't
    >> even find 5 things...
    >> 1/ I was surprised to have to pay about twice the price written for
    >> the menu in a restaurant because many things which I would have
    >> expected to be included in this price were not (bread, water, etc.)
    >> 2/ I've never drunk a coffee as nice as I drank there, nor as strong.
    >> 3/ I remember a nice couple who not only explained me how to get back
    >> to Ljubljana but actually took their car to show me the way.
    > I've never noticed being charged extra for bread in Italy. An occasional
    > cover charge maybe.

It's Pane e Coperto on the bill.

Marianne