Donald Newcomb

"devil" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]. ..
    > Actually, this is done using what for Europeans probably looks strange: a
    > two-phase low voltage distribution loop. 230 phase-to-phase, 110
    > phase-to-neutral. Plus a separate ground.

But it works. The reason that it ranges from 208 to 230+ volts is that it is
either two phases of a 3 phase system seperated by 120 degrees (208 v) or
(probably more common) two 110-120 volt phases seperated by 180 degrees with
220-240 v between the phases.

My point is that if you have a European 240 v appliance, you may not need to
buy a transformer to use it in the US. Bring an appropriate socket and buy
the right plug in most hardware stores and you can make and adapter to plug
it directly into some plugs in your average American home. Oh, and don't do
this unless you know what you are doing.

--
Donald Newcomb
DRNewcomb (at) attglobal (dot) net

Frank F. Matthews

devil wrote:

    > On Sun, 29 Aug 2004 07:48:46 -0500, Donald Newcomb wrote:

    >>"Abso" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >>news:[email protected]...
    >>>Ok, I'm being facecious. In fact the mains voltage/freqy in France is
    >>>exactly the same as the UK at 230V / 50Hz. It's been a long time since
    >>>there was 240v coming out of UK mains outlets but for the same reasons
    >>>we still think in Fahrenheit and buy sugar in 1lb bags, we can't seem
    >>>to get this 240V figure out of our heads.
    >>Similar thing is true in the USA. Do we use 110 VAC or 120 VAC? Well, most
    >>of the time, a good Volt meter will show socket on the wall is providing
    >>almost exactly 117 VAC (RMS). The appliances have to be designed to
    >>accomodate fluctiations between 110 and 120 VAC. BTW, most US homes and
    >>appartments are also wired to provide power at between 208 and 230 VAC
    >>(which we call "220"). These outlets are primarily used for large appliances
    >>such as ranges, air conditioners and clothes dryers. So some European
    >>appliances may not need a transformer, just a very special plug adapter.

    > Actually, this is done using what for Europeans probably looks strange: a
    > two-phase low voltage distribution loop. 230 phase-to-phase, 110
    > phase-to-neutral. Plus a separate ground.

Now you have me really confused. I always thought that if P-N was 110
then P-P would be 220 while if P-P was 230 then P-N was 115. Is it
perhaps that we are specifying voltages with excess implied accuracy?

Devil

On Sun, 29 Aug 2004 19:15:57 +0000, Frank F. Matthews wrote:

    > devil wrote:
    >
    >> On Sun, 29 Aug 2004 07:48:46 -0500, Donald Newcomb wrote:
    >
    >>>"Abso" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >>>news:[email protected]...
    >>>>Ok, I'm being facecious. In fact the mains voltage/freqy in France is
    >>>>exactly the same as the UK at 230V / 50Hz. It's been a long time since
    >>>>there was 240v coming out of UK mains outlets but for the same reasons
    >>>>we still think in Fahrenheit and buy sugar in 1lb bags, we can't seem
    >>>>to get this 240V figure out of our heads.
    >>>Similar thing is true in the USA. Do we use 110 VAC or 120 VAC? Well, most
    >>>of the time, a good Volt meter will show socket on the wall is providing
    >>>almost exactly 117 VAC (RMS). The appliances have to be designed to
    >>>accomodate fluctiations between 110 and 120 VAC. BTW, most US homes and
    >>>appartments are also wired to provide power at between 208 and 230 VAC
    >>>(which we call "220"). These outlets are primarily used for large appliances
    >>>such as ranges, air conditioners and clothes dryers. So some European
    >>>appliances may not need a transformer, just a very special plug adapter.
    >
    >> Actually, this is done using what for Europeans probably looks strange: a
    >> two-phase low voltage distribution loop. 230 phase-to-phase, 110
    >> phase-to-neutral. Plus a separate ground.
    >
    > Now you have me really confused. I always thought that if P-N was 110
    > then P-P would be 220 while if P-P was 230 then P-N was 115. Is it
    > perhaps that we are specifying voltages with excess implied accuracy?

I guess I didn't pay attention. Indeed, should be double.

But my point was, this is foreign to people in Europe, who have a three
phase local loop.

Donald Newcomb

"Frank F. Matthews" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > Now you have me really confused. I always thought that if P-N was 110
    > then P-P would be 220 while if P-P was 230 then P-N was 115. Is it
    > perhaps that we are specifying voltages with excess implied accuracy?

One of the points of the conversation has been that the power that come from
the outlet is plus or minus X percent. It might be 110 today and 120
tomorrow. Let's just say "117" and "234" because that's what they are most
of the time.

--
Donald Newcomb
DRNewcomb (at) attglobal (dot) net

Devil

On Sun, 29 Aug 2004 11:42:04 -0500, Donald Newcomb wrote:

    > My point is that if you have a European 240 v appliance, you may not need to
    > buy a transformer to use it in the US. Bring an appropriate socket and buy
    > the right plug in most hardware stores and you can make and adapter to plug
    > it directly into some plugs in your average American home. Oh, and don't do
    > this unless you know what you are doing.

And don't tell your insurance?

(In other words, I am not so sure it's such a great idea. Yes it will
work. But it most likely violates the codes.)

Darby Jo

On 28 Aug 2004 08:35:18 -0700, [email protected] (Andrea)
wrote:

    >Hi everybody..I have a question about using appliances, with voltage
    >that works in England, in Paris. I have a 240v hairdryer purchased in
    >England, and a US-bought curling iron with dual 120/240 voltage. Both
    >worked fine in London, and it was my understanding that appliances
    >from England only needed a plug adapter, not voltage adapter, to work
    >in Paris. However, I've only seen that the voltage in Paris is 220.
    >So I was wondering if these appliances that worked in England would in
    >fact work in Paris with only plug adapters, or if I will need voltage
    >adapters, or just to buy new French appliances.
    >Thanks in advance for any help,
    >Andrea

Speaking from only anecdotal experience, my cousin took her US
dual-voltage curling iron to England and France with the
appropriate plug adapters. It worked fine in England but not in
France. I have no idea why. I have in the past taken US
dual-voltage appliances to France with no real problems, though
my curling iron's "ready lights" never worked normally again
after that.

Darby Jo

Nightjar

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > nightjar wrote:
    > > I also question the claim
    > > that AEG built the first European generating facility.
    > It was installed in Schloss Linderhof - converging thread alert.

In what year? AEG did not exist in 1881, when Godalming started its public
electricity supply. If private electricity supplies are to be counted, the
South Foreland lighthouse was using arc lights in 1858, before Scholss
Linderhof was built.

Colin Bignell

Hatunen

On 29 Aug 2004 08:24:51 GMT, "Abso" <[email protected]> wrote:

    >Andrea wrote:
    >> Hi everybody..I have a question about using appliances, with voltage
    >> that works in England, in Paris. I have a 240v hairdryer purchased in
    >> England, and a US-bought curling iron with dual 120/240 voltage. Both
    >> worked fine in London, and it was my understanding that appliances
    >> from England only needed a plug adapter, not voltage adapter, to work
    >> in Paris. However, I've only seen that the voltage in Paris is 220.
    >> So I was wondering if these appliances that worked in England would in
    >> fact work in Paris with only plug adapters, or if I will need voltage
    >> adapters, or just to buy new French appliances.
    >They'll work but your hair will take longer to dry and won't come out
    >so curly..
    >Ok, I'm being facecious. In fact the mains voltage/freqy in France is
    >exactly the same as the UK at 230V / 50Hz. It's been a long time since
    >there was 240v coming out of UK mains outlets but for the same reasons
    >we still think in Fahrenheit and buy sugar in 1lb bags, we can't seem
    >to get this 240V figure out of our heads.

mains current in the USA is variousl called 110 vac, 115 vac, and
120 vac, exactly the same proportionate range as 220 vac to 240
vac, and no one worries about it here. Although a 120 vac light
bulb will burn more dimly and last longer than a 110 vac bulb.

************* DAVE HATUNEN ([email protected]) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *

Hatunen

On Sun, 29 Aug 2004 11:42:04 -0500, "Donald Newcomb"
<[email protected]> wrote:

    >"devil" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >news:[email protected] ...
    >> Actually, this is done using what for Europeans probably looks strange: a
    >> two-phase low voltage distribution loop. 230 phase-to-phase, 110
    >> phase-to-neutral. Plus a separate ground.
    >But it works. The reason that it ranges from 208 to 230+ volts is that it is
    >either two phases of a 3 phase system seperated by 120 degrees (208 v) or
    >(probably more common) two 110-120 volt phases seperated by 180 degrees with
    >220-240 v between the phases.
    >My point is that if you have a European 240 v appliance, you may not need to
    >buy a transformer to use it in the US. Bring an appropriate socket and buy
    >the right plug in most hardware stores and you can make and adapter to plug
    >it directly into some plugs in your average American home. Oh, and don't do
    >this unless you know what you are doing.

On some appliances the difference between 50 hz and 60 hz will
make a distinct difference. This is particularly true of larger
appliances that have synchorous motors.

************* DAVE HATUNEN ([email protected]) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *

nitram

On Mon, 30 Aug 2004 15:30:24 +0100, "nightjar"
<nightjar@<insert_my_surname_here>.uk.com> wrote:

    ><[email protected]> wrote in message
    >news:[email protected].. .
    >> nightjar wrote:
    >> > I also question the claim
    >> > that AEG built the first European generating facility.
    >> It was installed in Schloss Linderhof - converging thread alert.
    >In what year? AEG did not exist in 1881, when Godalming started its public
    >electricity supply. If private electricity supplies are to be counted, the
    >South Foreland lighthouse was using arc lights in 1858, before Scholss
    >Linderhof was built.

I was wrong Schloss Linderhof had the first generator in Bavaria

There's no mention of Godalming or South Foreland lighthouse here.
http://www.energyquest.ca.gov/time_m...ce-1900ce.html
Perhaps because they generated DC?

Devil

On Mon, 30 Aug 2004 08:52:06 -0600, Hatunen wrote:


    > On some appliances the difference between 50 hz and 60 hz will
    > make a distinct difference. This is particularly true of larger
    > appliances that have synchorous motors.

Such as?

(BTW the same is true for asynchronous ones. Might not be for DC-types?)

Nightjar

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
...
    > There's no mention of Godalming or South Foreland lighthouse here.
    > http://www.energyquest.ca.gov/time_m...ce-1900ce.html
    > Perhaps because they generated DC?

I suspect the strong American accent in the web site has much to do with the
omission of Godalming. More interesting, given its bias, is the omission of
the Rochester (New York) Electric Light Co, which could have a claim to
sharing the honours with Godalming. Unfortunately, there are no clear
records as to when it started generating, making it difficult to be sure.

The site also claims that New York had the first central station to supply
light and power, in September 1882. If it did, indeed, supply power from its
inception, that would be the only basis for its claim of being a first.
Brighton had gone on line in February 1882 but, like most early systems, it
only provided electricity for lighting at first.

South Foreland is more important in the history of electricity in Britain
than on the world stage.

Colin Bignell

Hatunen

On Mon, 30 Aug 2004 20:23:31 +0100, "nightjar"
<nightjar@<insert_my_surname_here>.uk.com> wrote:

    ><[email protected]> wrote in message
    >news:[email protected].. .
    >...
    >> There's no mention of Godalming or South Foreland lighthouse here.
    >> http://www.energyquest.ca.gov/time_m...ce-1900ce.html
    >> Perhaps because they generated DC?
    >I suspect the strong American accent in the web site has much to do with the
    >omission of Godalming. More interesting, given its bias, is the omission of
    >the Rochester (New York) Electric Light Co, which could have a claim to
    >sharing the honours with Godalming. Unfortunately, there are no clear
    >records as to when it started generating, making it difficult to be sure.
    >The site also claims that New York had the first central station to supply
    >light and power, in September 1882. If it did, indeed, supply power from its
    >inception, that would be the only basis for its claim of being a first.

Pearl Street, built by Edison for the pupose of selling
electricity, considered the first commercial central station; it
was DC. Per
http://www.ieee-virtual-museum.org/c...=3456876&lid=1

"In 1880 he installed a small system on the steamship Columbia as
well as a small lighting system at his Menlo Park lab. Lighting
systems with other features were also installed at the Paris
International Exposition and in London in 1881."


************* DAVE HATUNEN ([email protected]) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *

Gunter Herrmann

nightjar wrote
    > I also question the claim that AEG built the first European generating
    > facility. It certainly built the first modern style power station, the
    > Klingenburg station, near Berlin, but that was in 1930.

Nearly correct: Build 1925/1926, full power of 270 MW available in
1927. At the time it was build it was already part of Berlin
(creation of Gross-Berlin in 1920)

http://www.stadtentwicklung.berlin.d...raftwerk.shtml

The first power plant in Berlin was build in 1884

Later there were 2 major players in power plant design and
construction in Germany: Siemens and AEG.

BTW: I worked for 2 power plant engineering companies during the
redesign of Klingenberg in the 1980s.

Best regards

--
Gunter Herrmann
Naples, Florida, USA

James Silverton

"Gunter Herrmann" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > nightjar wrote
    > > I also question the claim that AEG built the first European
generating
    > > facility. It certainly built the first modern style power station,
the
    > > Klingenburg station, near Berlin, but that was in 1930.
    > Nearly correct: Build 1925/1926, full power of 270 MW available in
    > 1927. At the time it was build it was already part of Berlin
    > (creation of Gross-Berlin in 1920)
http://www.stadtentwicklung.berlin.d...raftwerk.shtml
    > The first power plant in Berlin was build in 1884
    > Later there were 2 major players in power plant design and
    > construction in Germany: Siemens and AEG.
    > BTW: I worked for 2 power plant engineering companies during the
    > redesign of Klingenberg in the 1980s.
    > Best regards
    > --
    > Gunter Herrmann
    > Naples, Florida, USA

I got interested in the claims of Godalming and, if you search with
Google, you will see that the town home page is quite proud of having
electric street lights in 1881 powered by the generators of a local
factory.


--
James V. Silverton
Potomac, Maryland, USA