Luca Logi

devil wrote:

    > > I beg your pardon, Paul, but your observations seem a sequence of
    > > separate and unrelated propositions so that I cannot follow your line.
    > >
    > > For example, do you really believe that invading Iraq will stop or even
    > > slow down terrorism? Would you believe that the Saudi government is a
    > > democratic government that truly represents the instances of their
    > > people? Do you believe that not invading Iraq amounts to let Israel be
    > > devoured? I would find difficult to believe any one of these
    > > propositions, let alone all of them together.
    >
    > I think you are being somewhat unfair, which in the current context is
    > arguably not terribly useful. You should reread Paul's answer
    > more carefully. Your comments are actually dealt with there already.
    > Perhaps not as clearly as you would like, but it's there.
    >
    > Now is not the time to nitpick with reasonable people.


Yes, my comment are actually dealt in Paul's anwsers: given as
undemonstrated postulates to be believed as true. I know Paul is a
reasonable fellow, what I am amazed about is how many things we are
asked to uncritically believe as true without any sort of demonstration.


-- -----------------------------------------------------
Luca Logi - Firenze - Italy e-mail: [email protected]

Go Fig

In article ,
[email protected] (Luca Logi) wrote:

    > Paul Tauger wrote:
    >
    >
    > > Though I am particularly unhappy with the policies being pursued by this
    > > administration, I don't, for a moment, believe that the terrorists will stop
    > > targetting America (and the rest of the West -- don't forget that Italy has
    > > arrested a number of Al Qaeda members who, evidently, had plans to attack
    > > Italy). The terrorist Islamists (who don't include most Muslims or, for
    > > that matter, most Islamists) have an agenda that is based on forcing the
    > > U.S. to remove its troops from Saudi Arabia (troops that are there at the
    > > invitation of the Saudi government), stopping support for Israel, and
    > > forcing the Islamization of the west. If, tomorrow, the US renounced it's
    > > intentions to invade Iraq (which I really wish it would), withdrew all
    > > support for Israel and let it be devoured by its hostile Arab neighbors, and
    > > withdrew all US troops from Saudi Arabia, the terrorist attacks would
    > > continue, because the US is not, and will never be, a Muslim theocracy --
    > > the same "flaw" which has made Italy, France, Russia, Britain and Indonesia
    > > targets of the terrorists.
    >
    >
    > I beg your pardon, Paul, but your observations seem a sequence of
    > separate and unrelated propositions so that I cannot follow your line.
    >
    > For example, do you really believe that invading Iraq will stop or even
    > slow down terrorism?

In the late 70s and 80s, Italy had a domestic problem with terrorists.
Did Italy sign some agreement with them or did they get tough and hunt
them down?

jay
Sat, Feb 8, 2003
mailto:[email protected]



Would you believe that the Saudi government is a
    > democratic government that truly represents the instances of their
    > people? Do you believe that not invading Iraq amounts to let Israel be
    > devoured? I would find difficult to believe any one of these
    > propositions, let alone all of them together.
    >
    >
    > -- -----------------------------------------------------
    > Luca Logi - Firenze - Italy e-mail: [email protected]

--

Legend insists that as he finished his abject...
Galileo muttered under his breath: "Nevertheless, it does move."

Devil

On Sat, 08 Feb 2003 16:47:20 +0000, Go Fig wrote:

    >
    > In the late 70s and 80s, Italy had a domestic problem with terrorists.
    > Did Italy sign some agreement with them or did they get tough and hunt
    > them down?

Keyy difference of course being that Iraq has nothing to do with terrorism
and everything to do with Rumsfelt's balls.

(Or perhaps lack theroff?)

Go Fig

In article ,
"devil" wrote:

    > On Sat, 08 Feb 2003 16:47:20 +0000, Go Fig wrote:
    >
    > >
    > > In the late 70s and 80s, Italy had a domestic problem with terrorists.
    > > Did Italy sign some agreement with them or did they get tough and hunt
    > > them down?
    >
    > Keyy difference of course being that Iraq has nothing to do with terrorism

Are you saying the butcher doesn't send cash to the murderer's in the
West Bank and Gaza ?

jay
Sat, Feb 8, 2003
mailto:[email protected]



    > and everything to do with Rumsfelt's balls.
    >
    > (Or perhaps lack theroff?)

--

Legend insists that as he finished his abject...
Galileo muttered under his breath: "Nevertheless, it does move."

Devil

On Sat, 08 Feb 2003 17:22:57 +0000, Go Fig wrote:

    > In article ,
    > "devil" wrote:
    >
    >> On Sat, 08 Feb 2003 16:47:20 +0000, Go Fig wrote:
    >>
    >> >
    >> > In the late 70s and 80s, Italy had a domestic problem with terrorists.
    >> > Did Italy sign some agreement with them or did they get tough and hunt
    >> > them down?
    >>
    >> Keyy difference of course being that Iraq has nothing to do with terrorism
    >
    > Are you saying the butcher doesn't send cash to the murderer's in the
    > West Bank and Gaza ?

Who doesn't send cash to some of the murderers there (aren't they all on
bith sides)? Or are you saying the US are aupporting terrorists too?

(Wouldn't be the first time BTW, remember the contras for instance, or a
guy called Pinochet. He who lives in a glass house...)

Luca Logi

Go Fig wrote:


    > In the late 70s and 80s, Italy had a domestic problem with terrorists.
    > Did Italy sign some agreement with them or did they get tough and hunt
    > them down?


It was probably a completely different problem. However, you would be
astonished to learn how terrorism was dealt as much as possible with
ordinary instruments, without recurring to special tribunals or
uncontrolled government actions (as Dubya would like to do), and trying
to undercut the discontent base the terrorists came from. Repression
alone isn't enough to win with terrorism.


-- -----------------------------------------------------
Luca Logi - Firenze - Italy e-mail: [email protected]

Evelynvogtgamble

Luca Logi wrote:
    >
    > Kurt J. Fischer wrote:
    >
    > > Not to abuse my fellow USA'ers, but they can avoid targeting by the bad guys
    > > by staying low key.
    >
    > When you are at it, tell your elected representatives to ask Dubya to
    > stay low key also. It may well avoid being targeted.

But why should HE care? It's only the ordinary citizens of his country
that might be at risk! HE'S protected by the Secret Service (and
whisked away to some "protected" site underground somewhere, in the
event of any forseen danger of attack).


    >
    > -- -----------------------------------------------------
    > Luca Logi - Firenze - Italy e-mail: [email protected]

Evelynvogtgamble

Luca Logi wrote:
    >
    > Paul Tauger wrote:
    >
    > > Though I am particularly unhappy with the policies being pursued by this
    > > administration, I don't, for a moment, believe that the terrorists will stop
    > > targetting America (and the rest of the West -- don't forget that Italy has
    > > arrested a number of Al Qaeda members who, evidently, had plans to attack
    > > Italy). The terrorist Islamists (who don't include most Muslims or, for
    > > that matter, most Islamists) have an agenda that is based on forcing the
    > > U.S. to remove its troops from Saudi Arabia (troops that are there at the
    > > invitation of the Saudi government), stopping support for Israel, and
    > > forcing the Islamization of the west. If, tomorrow, the US renounced it's
    > > intentions to invade Iraq (which I really wish it would), withdrew all
    > > support for Israel and let it be devoured by its hostile Arab neighbors, and
    > > withdrew all US troops from Saudi Arabia, the terrorist attacks would
    > > continue, because the US is not, and will never be, a Muslim theocracy --
    > > the same "flaw" which has made Italy, France, Russia, Britain and Indonesia
    > > targets of the terrorists.
    >
    > I beg your pardon, Paul, but your observations seem a sequence of
    > separate and unrelated propositions so that I cannot follow your line.
    >
    > For example, do you really believe that invading Iraq will stop or even
    > slow down terrorism? Would you believe that the Saudi government is a
    > democratic government that truly represents the instances of their
    > people? Do you believe that not invading Iraq amounts to let Israel be
    > devoured? I would find difficult to believe any one of these
    > propositions, let alone all of them together.

I think he made it quite clear that he does NOT, personally, approve of
"invading Iraq". (Also that he does not feel it would/will accomplish
any useful purpose.) Unfotunately, our government seems determined not
to listen to any educated moderates among our citizenry.

Evelynvogtgamble

devil wrote:
    >
    > On Sat, 08 Feb 2003 16:47:20 +0000, Go Fig wrote:
    >
    > >
    > > In the late 70s and 80s, Italy had a domestic problem with terrorists.
    > > Did Italy sign some agreement with them or did they get tough and hunt
    > > them down?
    >
    > Keyy difference of course being that Iraq has nothing to do with terrorism
    > and everything to do with Rumsfelt's balls.
    >
    > (Or perhaps lack theroff?)

The latter, I suspect - aren't bullies usually compensating for feelings
of inferiority?

Evelynvogtgamble

Luca Logi wrote:
    >
    > Go Fig wrote:
    >
    > > In the late 70s and 80s, Italy had a domestic problem with terrorists.
    > > Did Italy sign some agreement with them or did they get tough and hunt
    > > them down?
    >
    > It was probably a completely different problem. However, you would be
    > astonished to learn how terrorism was dealt as much as possible with
    > ordinary instruments, without recurring to special tribunals or
    > uncontrolled government actions (as Dubya would like to do), and trying
    > to undercut the discontent base the terrorists came from. Repression
    > alone isn't enough to win with terrorism.

Oh, well, Dubya seems to want his own private Gestapo - terrorism
(although a real issue) is only his excuse for organizing one.

    >
    > -- -----------------------------------------------------
    > Luca Logi - Firenze - Italy e-mail: [email protected]

Kyle

My wife and I decided to cancel our plans until things settle down!
"Charles Hawtrey" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > On Fri, 07 Feb 2003 21:12:15 +0000, Padraig Breathnach
    > wrote:
    > >Gawd! If I, a European, commented on such behaviour by Americans,
    > >there would be a storm of protest. Are you sure that you are really
    > >American?
    > It's common across a broad range of cultures for members of a group to
    > squabble amongst themselves yet bristle at real or perceived slights
    > by outsiders. This dynamic is surprisingly similar whether the group
    > in question is as small as a family or as large as the EU.
    > ___________________________________________
    > Unit #02582: Endangered Old-Growth Redwood
    > Toothpick Artisans, LLC [TINEOGRTALLC]
    > --
    > Frivolity is a stern taskmaster.

Charles Hawtrey

On Sat, 8 Feb 2003 08:41:48 +0100, [email protected] (Luca Logi) wrote:

    >Kurt J. Fischer wrote:
    >> Not to abuse my fellow USA'ers, but they can avoid targeting by the bad guys
    >> by staying low key.
    >When you are at it, tell your elected representatives to ask Dubya to
    >stay low key also. It may well avoid being targeted.

Experience argues strongly against the truth of this statement, both
over the long term and more recently. The Indonesians stayed "low
key" with respect to terrorism yet it didn't prevent the Bali bombing.

___________________________________________
Unit #02582: Endangered Old-Growth Redwood
Toothpick Artisans, LLC [TINEOGRTALLC]
--
Frivolity is a stern taskmaster.

Paul Tauger

[email protected] (Luca Logi) wrote in message news:...
    > Paul Tauger wrote:
    >
    >
    > > Though I am particularly unhappy with the policies being pursued by this
    > > administration, I don't, for a moment, believe that the terrorists will stop
    > > targetting America (and the rest of the West -- don't forget that Italy has
    > > arrested a number of Al Qaeda members who, evidently, had plans to attack
    > > Italy). The terrorist Islamists (who don't include most Muslims or, for
    > > that matter, most Islamists) have an agenda that is based on forcing the
    > > U.S. to remove its troops from Saudi Arabia (troops that are there at the
    > > invitation of the Saudi government), stopping support for Israel, and
    > > forcing the Islamization of the west. If, tomorrow, the US renounced it's
    > > intentions to invade Iraq (which I really wish it would), withdrew all
    > > support for Israel and let it be devoured by its hostile Arab neighbors, and
    > > withdrew all US troops from Saudi Arabia, the terrorist attacks would
    > > continue, because the US is not, and will never be, a Muslim theocracy --
    > > the same "flaw" which has made Italy, France, Russia, Britain and Indonesia
    > > targets of the terrorists.
    >
    >
    > I beg your pardon, Paul, but your observations seem a sequence of
    > separate and unrelated propositions so that I cannot follow your line.
    >
    > For example, do you really believe that invading Iraq will stop or even
    > slow down terrorism?

No, not at all. I believe there is no relationship between Iraq and
Al Qaeda and, further, do not believe that Iraq poses any real threat
to the United States. However, I believe that terrorism will not stop
if the US were to call off it's disastrous expedition against that
country.

    > Would you believe that the Saudi government is a
    > democratic government that truly represents the instances of their
    > people?

No, I don't believe that. Saudi Arabia is a monarchy whose
constitution is the Koran. The Saudi royal family provides direct and
indirect support to terrorists. The Saudi royal family funds the
madrassas which are the breeding ground for the terrorist fanatics,
including 15 of the 19 hijackers who killed 3,000 people on September
11th. I regard Saudi Arabia as a far greater threat to US security
(and the security of the rest of the west) than Iraq. However, I
believe that terrorism will not stop if the US were to withdraw its
military presence from Saudi Arabia.

    >Do you believe that not invading Iraq amounts to let Israel be
    > devoured?

Of course not, nor did I say that. What I did say was that I believe
that terrorism will not stop, even if the US withdraws all support for
Israel and allows it to be devoured by its hostile Arab neighbors.

    >I would find difficult to believe any one of these
    > propositions, let alone all of them together.

Yet, you had said this:

"When you are at it, tell your elected representatives to ask Dubya to
stay low key also. It may well avoid being targeted."

Your implication was that American foreign policy was responsible for
America being targetted by terrorists. That simply is not true, as
was found out by Indonesia and Russia, who were also attacked, and
Italy, Great Britain and France, who were fortunate enough to arrest
the terrorists before they could attack there.

Al Qaeda, and those of its ilk, want no more nor less than a
world-wide theocratic Muslim state. That is their goal. They have
said so, repeatedly. And nothing will stop them short of detention or
extermination (and I must stress that I do not believe all Muslims are
Islamicist fanatics, nor do I believe that all Islamicist fanatics are
terrorists. We are not at war with Islam, but with a very small group
depraved fanatics who do not represent anyone but themselves).

I am very opposed to the war with Iraq. I believe George Bush and his
group are motivated primarily, if not exclusively, by the prospect of
controlling Iraqi oil. However, it does a tremendous disservice to
the fight against fanatic Islamicist terrorism to pretend it is
motivated by anything other than a desire by these terrorist cowards
to achieve world theocratic supremacy.



    >
    >
    > -- -----------------------------------------------------
    > Luca Logi - Firenze - Italy e-mail: [email protected]

Paul Tauger

Marco Z. wrote in message news:...
    > On Sat, 8 Feb 2003 06:07:12 -0800, "Paul Tauger"
    > wrote:
    >
    > >targetting America (and the rest of the West -- don't forget that Italy has
    > >arrested a number of Al Qaeda members who, evidently, had plans to attack
    > >Italy)
    >
    > I'm sure that they should be considered innocent until a final degree
    > of judgement as been reached by a tribunal... isn't this what we call
    > a democracy, when we talk about "justice"?
    > They are *suspected*, but they are still not guilty, I think...


I can not speak for Italian law, as I know little about it. In the
US, suspects are presumed innocent, which means the state has the
burden of proving them guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. The
presumption of innocence merely means that suspects don't have to
prove their innocence to be acquitted of a crime, the state must prove
their guilt.

It does not mean they ARE innocent until proven guilty. From what I
have read, the suspects that have been arrested in Europe had clear
ties to Al Qaeda, and incriminating documents, explosives and poisons
in the possession. This is sufficient for me to make me glad they are
being held in detention until they can be tried and the appropriate
tribunal can determine their guilt as a matter of law, as opposed to a
matter of fact.

Luca Logi

Paul Tauger wrote:

    > I can not speak for Italian law, as I know little about it. In the
    > US, suspects are presumed innocent, which means the state has the
    > burden of proving them guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. The
    > presumption of innocence merely means that suspects don't have to
    > prove their innocence to be acquitted of a crime, the state must prove
    > their guilt.


It is so also in Italy, but not in Guantanamo...

-- -----------------------------------------------------
Luca Logi - Firenze - Italy e-mail: [email protected]