Kurt J. Fischer

I'm not going to allow some terrorists stop me from visiting my favorite
places in Europe. If some Americans fear for their safety, they should stay
home until they can feel safe. It's not funny to them, and should not be to the
rest of us.

Not to abuse my fellow USA'ers, but they can avoid targeting by the bad guys
by staying low key. Two years ago, I was in the Nice airport and some
American was yelling that he had been mistreated by some French Official. I
don't know what happened, but there he was in the airport, demanding that all
Americans immediately depart France and never return. OK - he was making a
fool of himself.

On a previous trip, some young American woman, chewing her gum as loudly as
possible, was complaining "why don't they use regular money?" What can one do
but roll their eyes?

It's fun to travel and find someone from your own home town, but that's not
why most people do travel.. They want to meet peole from that city or town.
Personally, I don't deliberately gravitate towards Americans, but sometimes the
language causes one to perk up when they hear their own.

Anyway, I think we should feel free to travel to Europe. I sure do.
Thanks for reading - Kurt in Pittsburgh, USA

Marco Z .

On 07 Feb 2003 20:54:47 GMT, [email protected] (Kurt J. Fischer) wrote:

    >Thanks for reading - Kurt in Pittsburgh, USA

Thanks for have written such a good and agreeable stuff.

--
Marco Z.
-------------------------------
http://members.xoom.it/marquito

Padraig Breathnach

[email protected] (Kurt J. Fischer) wrote:

    > Not to abuse my fellow USA'ers, but they can avoid targeting by the bad guys
    >by staying low key. Two years ago, I was in the Nice airport and some
    >American was yelling that he had been mistreated by some French Official. I
    >don't know what happened, but there he was in the airport, demanding that all
    >Americans immediately depart France and never return. OK - he was making a
    >fool of himself.
    > On a previous trip, some young American woman, chewing her gum as loudly as
    >possible, was complaining "why don't they use regular money?" What can one do
    >but roll their eyes?
Gawd! If I, a European, commented on such behaviour by Americans,
there would be a storm of protest. Are you sure that you are really
American?

PB

Charles Hawtrey

On Fri, 07 Feb 2003 21:12:15 +0000, Padraig Breathnach
wrote:

    >Gawd! If I, a European, commented on such behaviour by Americans,
    >there would be a storm of protest. Are you sure that you are really
    >American?

It's common across a broad range of cultures for members of a group to
squabble amongst themselves yet bristle at real or perceived slights
by outsiders. This dynamic is surprisingly similar whether the group
in question is as small as a family or as large as the EU.

___________________________________________
Unit #02582: Endangered Old-Growth Redwood
Toothpick Artisans, LLC [TINEOGRTALLC]
--
Frivolity is a stern taskmaster.

Hobart Xaxinojo

this is normal human behavior. we can, should, do critisize ourselves but
it raises the hackles if an "outsider" does the same thing. i would also
say that yes he is an american and more representative than either you or he
might know or admit.

"Padraig Breathnach" wrote in message
news[email protected]...
    > [email protected] (Kurt J. Fischer) wrote:
    > > Not to abuse my fellow USA'ers, but they can avoid targeting by the bad
guys
    > >by staying low key. Two years ago, I was in the Nice airport and some
    > >American was yelling that he had been mistreated by some French
Official. I
    > >don't know what happened, but there he was in the airport, demanding that
all
    > >Americans immediately depart France and never return. OK - he was making
a
    > >fool of himself.
    > >
    > > On a previous trip, some young American woman, chewing her gum as
loudly as
    > >possible, was complaining "why don't they use regular money?" What can
one do
    > >but roll their eyes?
    > >
    > Gawd! If I, a European, commented on such behaviour by Americans,
    > there would be a storm of protest. Are you sure that you are really
    > American?
    > PB

Hobart Xaxinojo

exactly

"Charles Hawtrey" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > On Fri, 07 Feb 2003 21:12:15 +0000, Padraig Breathnach
    > wrote:
    > >Gawd! If I, a European, commented on such behaviour by Americans,
    > >there would be a storm of protest. Are you sure that you are really
    > >American?
    > It's common across a broad range of cultures for members of a group to
    > squabble amongst themselves yet bristle at real or perceived slights
    > by outsiders. This dynamic is surprisingly similar whether the group
    > in question is as small as a family or as large as the EU.
    > ___________________________________________
    > Unit #02582: Endangered Old-Growth Redwood
    > Toothpick Artisans, LLC [TINEOGRTALLC]
    > --
    > Frivolity is a stern taskmaster.

Evelynvogtgamble

Padraig Breathnach wrote:
    >
    > [email protected] (Kurt J. Fischer) wrote:
    >
    > > Not to abuse my fellow USA'ers, but they can avoid targeting by the bad guys
    > >by staying low key. Two years ago, I was in the Nice airport and some
    > >American was yelling that he had been mistreated by some French Official. I
    > >don't know what happened, but there he was in the airport, demanding that all
    > >Americans immediately depart France and never return. OK - he was making a
    > >fool of himself.
    > >
    > > On a previous trip, some young American woman, chewing her gum as loudly as
    > >possible, was complaining "why don't they use regular money?" What can one do
    > >but roll their eyes?
    > >
    > Gawd! If I, a European, commented on such behaviour by Americans,
    > there would be a storm of protest. Are you sure that you are really
    > American?

Not all American travelers wear red, white and blue blinders - quite a
few of us cringe when we see/hear some of our fellow-countrymen abroad!
(And why many of us do our best to erase that image of Americans in
European eyes.)

    >
    > PB

Luca Logi

Kurt J. Fischer wrote:

    > Not to abuse my fellow USA'ers, but they can avoid targeting by the bad guys
    > by staying low key.


When you are at it, tell your elected representatives to ask Dubya to
stay low key also. It may well avoid being targeted.

-- -----------------------------------------------------
Luca Logi - Firenze - Italy e-mail: [email protected]

Mobutu

    > "why don't they use regular money?"

ROFL! And why don't they speak normal??

Paul Tauger

"Padraig Breathnach" wrote in message
news[email protected]...
    > [email protected] (Kurt J. Fischer) wrote:
    > > Not to abuse my fellow USA'ers, but they can avoid targeting by the bad
guys
    > >by staying low key. Two years ago, I was in the Nice airport and some
    > >American was yelling that he had been mistreated by some French
Official. I
    > >don't know what happened, but there he was in the airport, demanding that
all
    > >Americans immediately depart France and never return. OK - he was making
a
    > >fool of himself.
    > >
    > > On a previous trip, some young American woman, chewing her gum as
loudly as
    > >possible, was complaining "why don't they use regular money?" What can
one do
    > >but roll their eyes?
    > >
    > Gawd! If I, a European, commented on such behaviour by Americans,
    > there would be a storm of protest. Are you sure that you are really
    > American?

It's the difference between saying, "I saw an American woman chewing her gum
as loudly as possible . . .", and saying, "Americans chew their gum as
loudly as possible . . ."


    > PB

Paul Tauger

"Luca Logi" wrote in message
news:1fq1ya8.68mwo6epgt60N%[email protected]...
    > Kurt J. Fischer wrote:
    > > Not to abuse my fellow USA'ers, but they can avoid targeting by the bad
guys
    > > by staying low key.
    > When you are at it, tell your elected representatives to ask Dubya to
    > stay low key also. It may well avoid being targeted.

Though I am particularly unhappy with the policies being pursued by this
administration, I don't, for a moment, believe that the terrorists will stop
targetting America (and the rest of the West -- don't forget that Italy has
arrested a number of Al Qaeda members who, evidently, had plans to attack
Italy). The terrorist Islamists (who don't include most Muslims or, for
that matter, most Islamists) have an agenda that is based on forcing the
U.S. to remove its troops from Saudi Arabia (troops that are there at the
invitation of the Saudi government), stopping support for Israel, and
forcing the Islamization of the west. If, tomorrow, the US renounced it's
intentions to invade Iraq (which I really wish it would), withdrew all
support for Israel and let it be devoured by its hostile Arab neighbors, and
withdrew all US troops from Saudi Arabia, the terrorist attacks would
continue, because the US is not, and will never be, a Muslim theocracy --
the same "flaw" which has made Italy, France, Russia, Britain and Indonesia
targets of the terrorists.



    > -- -----------------------------------------------------
    > Luca Logi - Firenze - Italy e-mail: [email protected]

Keith M

Hi Kurt,

I agree with most of what you said.

I've travelled overseas three times last year, twice to Europe, and had zero
problems, minus one grumpy Italian trying to pawn some stolen stuff off on
me. Terrorism hasn't stopped my travelling at all, although the economy
sure is trying my nerves!

I, too, have seen some "ugly" americans abound. It's a shame, but I try to
distance myself from them. The behaviors of some people are enough to make
me cringe. I've found though, that these are often the same people who look
like idiots in the USA too. It's not that the location gives them bad
manners --- they've had it all their lives.

I've only been once(that I know of) an 'ugly' american, in Madrid airport.
I was fighting with the payphones, and the payphones were winning. With a
fair amount of travel experience, I usually don't have any trouble figuring
out local dialing prefixes, etc etc. Suffice to say that we were tired from
travelling all day, and I ended up MF'ing to myself as I go to find some
(more) spare pesetas, with no place to get change. As I was checking in
with my wife, I was using somewhat overly graphic(and probably overly loud,
as well) language detailing my problems. An american turned around and
said, "Please, the payphones take these" and handed me a few coins.
Although a nice gesture, I have a feeling it was as much to shut me up, as
to help me.

I did travel one time, with another american(their first time to Europe),
who simply didn't understand the need to be a little more reserved. Being a
little too loud on the underground, asking one or two too many people to
take their picture in front of the street WC, etc. Quite embarassing to me,
especially travelling with them. Thinking back to my first trip to Europe,
I do remember making a conscious effort to simply be quiet and smile.

From Pittsburgh PA,

Keith M

Luca Logi

Paul Tauger wrote:


    > Though I am particularly unhappy with the policies being pursued by this
    > administration, I don't, for a moment, believe that the terrorists will stop
    > targetting America (and the rest of the West -- don't forget that Italy has
    > arrested a number of Al Qaeda members who, evidently, had plans to attack
    > Italy). The terrorist Islamists (who don't include most Muslims or, for
    > that matter, most Islamists) have an agenda that is based on forcing the
    > U.S. to remove its troops from Saudi Arabia (troops that are there at the
    > invitation of the Saudi government), stopping support for Israel, and
    > forcing the Islamization of the west. If, tomorrow, the US renounced it's
    > intentions to invade Iraq (which I really wish it would), withdrew all
    > support for Israel and let it be devoured by its hostile Arab neighbors, and
    > withdrew all US troops from Saudi Arabia, the terrorist attacks would
    > continue, because the US is not, and will never be, a Muslim theocracy --
    > the same "flaw" which has made Italy, France, Russia, Britain and Indonesia
    > targets of the terrorists.


I beg your pardon, Paul, but your observations seem a sequence of
separate and unrelated propositions so that I cannot follow your line.

For example, do you really believe that invading Iraq will stop or even
slow down terrorism? Would you believe that the Saudi government is a
democratic government that truly represents the instances of their
people? Do you believe that not invading Iraq amounts to let Israel be
devoured? I would find difficult to believe any one of these
propositions, let alone all of them together.


-- -----------------------------------------------------
Luca Logi - Firenze - Italy e-mail: [email protected]

Marco Z .

On Sat, 8 Feb 2003 06:07:12 -0800, "Paul Tauger"
wrote:

    >targetting America (and the rest of the West -- don't forget that Italy has
    >arrested a number of Al Qaeda members who, evidently, had plans to attack
    >Italy)

I'm sure that they should be considered innocent until a final degree
of judgement as been reached by a tribunal... isn't this what we call
a democracy, when we talk about "justice"?
They are *suspected*, but they are still not guilty, I think...

--
Marco Z.
-------------------------------
http://members.xoom.it/marquito

Devil

On Sat, 08 Feb 2003 16:42:05 +0100, Luca Logi wrote:

    > Paul Tauger wrote:
    >
    >
    >> Though I am particularly unhappy with the policies being pursued by
    >> this administration, I don't, for a moment, believe that the terrorists
    >> will stop targetting America (and the rest of the West -- don't forget
    >> that Italy has arrested a number of Al Qaeda members who, evidently,
    >> had plans to attack Italy). The terrorist Islamists (who don't include
    >> most Muslims or, for that matter, most Islamists) have an agenda that
    >> is based on forcing the U.S. to remove its troops from Saudi Arabia
    >> (troops that are there at the invitation of the Saudi government),
    >> stopping support for Israel, and forcing the Islamization of the west.
    >> If, tomorrow, the US renounced it's intentions to invade Iraq (which I
    >> really wish it would), withdrew all support for Israel and let it be
    >> devoured by its hostile Arab neighbors, and withdrew all US troops from
    >> Saudi Arabia, the terrorist attacks would continue, because the US is
    >> not, and will never be, a Muslim theocracy -- the same "flaw" which has
    >> made Italy, France, Russia, Britain and Indonesia targets of the
    >> terrorists.
    >
    >
    > I beg your pardon, Paul, but your observations seem a sequence of
    > separate and unrelated propositions so that I cannot follow your line.
    >
    > For example, do you really believe that invading Iraq will stop or even
    > slow down terrorism? Would you believe that the Saudi government is a
    > democratic government that truly represents the instances of their
    > people? Do you believe that not invading Iraq amounts to let Israel be
    > devoured? I would find difficult to believe any one of these
    > propositions, let alone all of them together.

I think you are being somewhat unfair, which in the current context is
arguably not terribly useful. You should reread Paul's answer
more carefully. Your comments are actually dealt with there already.
Perhaps not as clearly as you would like, but it's there.

Now is not the time to nitpick with reasonable people.