> don't mind the driving THAT much. the drive to York from London, over
    > to Hadrian's Wall, back down to Warwick and the Cotswolds, Bath, etc.
    > I could do somewhat easily. just wondering if that will be too much
    > to go down to the southwest or should I just shoot for the eastern
    > side of Scotland as far north as St. Andrews.
    >
    > was thinking about driving from London to York, up to Durham, then
    > Edinburgh, St. Andrews, back down towards Hadrian's Wall (perhaps via
    > Glasgow?) then down to Warwick, Cotswolds, Bath and back to London?

St Andrews is not worth bothering with if you've seen Edinburgh.
It has a nice beach but otherwise all it's got going for it is
that it's handy for Dundee. (I'd suggest Stirling Castle instead,
more interesting by far than the whole of St Andrews put together,
but maybe you've already been there?)

There's not much to see at Hadrian's Wall. But Galloway (more or
less on your route) is interesting and a car makes it a lot easier.

============== j-c ====== @ ====== purr . demon . co . uk ==============
Jack Campin: 11 Third St, Newtongrange EH22 4PU, Scotland | tel 0131 660 4760
<http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack/> for CD-ROMs and free | fax 0870 0554 975
stuff: Scottish music, food intolerance, & Mac logic fonts | mob 07800 739 557

actually I've seen St. Andrews before. nice view. even went in to the
underground "mine" which was kind of claustrophobic. just thought
maybe we'd see it again since my kids were 15 and 13 and don't
remember as much.

also been to Sterling castle but it was raining and cold when we were
there so didn't stay too long. once again, the kids were kind of
younger back then so was thinking about refreshing their memories.

thanks for the info. I'll look in to Galloway since we haven't been
there.

steve

On Tue, 05 Apr 2005 23:34:24 +0100, Jack Campin - bogus address
<[email protected]> wrote:

    >> don't mind the driving THAT much. the drive to York from London, over
    >> to Hadrian's Wall, back down to Warwick and the Cotswolds, Bath, etc.
    >> I could do somewhat easily. just wondering if that will be too much
    >> to go down to the southwest or should I just shoot for the eastern
    >> side of Scotland as far north as St. Andrews.
    >>
    >> was thinking about driving from London to York, up to Durham, then
    >> Edinburgh, St. Andrews, back down towards Hadrian's Wall (perhaps via
    >> Glasgow?) then down to Warwick, Cotswolds, Bath and back to London?
    >St Andrews is not worth bothering with if you've seen Edinburgh.
    >It has a nice beach but otherwise all it's got going for it is
    >that it's handy for Dundee. (I'd suggest Stirling Castle instead,
    >more interesting by far than the whole of St Andrews put together,
    >but maybe you've already been there?)
    >There's not much to see at Hadrian's Wall. But Galloway (more or
    >less on your route) is interesting and a car makes it a lot easier.
    >============== j-c ====== @ ====== purr . demon . co . uk ==============
    >Jack Campin: 11 Third St, Newtongrange EH22 4PU, Scotland | tel 0131 660 4760
    ><http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack/> for CD-ROMs and free | fax 0870 0554 975
    >stuff: Scottish music, food intolerance, & Mac logic fonts | mob 07800 739 557

I hear you on the Welsh castles in the north of Wales. actually, last
year we stayed at Betws-y-Coed and had a great experience. got see the
rest of the castles we had missed on a visit 4 years ago. really
pretty up there and I think a visitor can't go wrong with the
Edwardian castles from the late 1200s.

we go to somewhere in the U.K. every year now since 1999 and the only
place we haven't been is to the southwest. the kids want to go back to
Bath and I'd like to see Kenilworth again since I think it's a
beautiful castle ruin (although it was raining pretty good when we
were there).

our idea is that we will go to Bath no matter what (will be our 3rd
trip although the first one was quick and a coach tour from London)
and it isn't that far from London anyway since I'll probably be
driving.

the question for us was to go back to Scotland since the kids memories
are somewhat "cloudy" since it was 4 years ago and they were younger
(14 and 12 just realized I misstated their ages in a previous post)
and don't remember as much plus the weather was kind of rainy. either
that (scotland) or go to the one place we haven't been - southwest
England. well actually two places we haven't been. haven't been to
southern Wales either. only been to the Betws-y-Coed area.

thanks for the info on the Hermitage Castle since I wasn't aware of
it. probably won't drive as far as Carlisle since I did make that trip
on our way to Oban 4 years ago and it seemed like quite a drive.
Haltwhistle was an interesting little town where we stayed and got to
see Vindolanda but it was raining there too. actually snowed on us
while in Oban visiting the Isle of Mull on the ferry. that west side
sure gets the rain. at least when we were there it did.

I'm starting to think southwest England is out due to excessive
driving if we go all the way up to York and then back down to Bath.
perhaps will try the Glasgo angle.

thanks for your advice,

steve


On 5 Apr 2005 08:42:31 -0700, [email protected] wrote:

    >Steve,
    >Re castles. Seriously consider North Wales. Conwy, Biwmaris,
    >Caernarfon and Harlech Castles are all superb and close to each other.
    >Others nearby are also good. See http://www.cadw.wales.gov.uk/ (If in
    >the area consider Portmeirion and Ffestiniog Railway too).
    >If going up east side of UK consider assorted castles between York and
    >Edinburgh. Hermitage Castle is also worthwhile but a bit hard to get
    >too. Some of those between Glasgow (which is excellent for museums and
    >Burrell Collection) and Carlisle are good too. English Heritage website
    >is useless, but Historic Scotland is better at
    >http://www.historic-scotland.gov.uk/...properties.htm
    >In general terms SW Scotland (Dumfries and Galloway) is very
    >attractive, much less busy than SW England and would fit in with return
    >south from Glasgow.
    >Other comments. If doing east side consider Beverley (small town with
    >finest Gothic minster in Europe), Durham (incredible Norman cathedral),
    >Berwick (Tudor town walls).
    >Michael

I'm starting to think I should have made things much more clear now
that I read the various postings Edmund. We've travelled quite a bit
in the U.K. and Ireland (West Scotland, East Scotland, North Wales,
central and western England, and Ireland as well). Have not been to
the north of Scotland, the southwest of England, and the south of
Wales yet.

so I'm narrowing it down to London to York, York to perhaps Edinburgh
(although we may just go to Glasgow), Glasgow to Hadrian's Wall
(question is where since I don't want to drive all the way to
Carlisle), down to Warwick/Kenilworth, Cotswolds, Bath, and then to
southern Wales. from there back to London.

so any suggestions for southern Wales? some folks have mentioned a
couple of places that sound doable.

also castles in the north of England? have been to Alnwyck (sp?) and
Durham Cathedral, but not much else north of York (one of my favorite
Medieval cities).

thanks for the advice,

steve

On 5 Apr 2005 09:51:57 -0700, "Edmund Lewis" <[email protected]>
wrote:

    >Steve C wrote:
    >> I have two weeks total in the U.K. we would like to see York if
    >> possible since we haven't been back in a few years with the whole
    >> family (I was there in November of 2003, but not the rest of the
    >> family).
    >Ah. From your original post it suggested you only had 1 week- 2 makes
    >it easier :-)
    >> don't mind the driving THAT much. the drive to York from London,
    >Straight up the A1, or M1/A1. Simple, no problems.
    > over
    >> to Hadrian's Wall, back down to Warwick and the Cotswolds, Bath, etc.
    >> I could do somewhat easily.
    >London-York-Hadrian's Wall, yes. Driving from there down to the
    >Cotswolds is a lot more time consuming- you'll have to cut across
    >country, and it
    >will be tiring. You'd be best stopping off somewhere en route.
    > just wondering if that will be too much
    >> to go down to the southwest
    >Only 1 or 2 main roads go down there, can be very congested especially
    >if it's the half term/Bank Holiday week. Also may be hard to find
    >accommodation without booking well in advance. But has some great
    >beaches and nice countryside.
    > or should I just shoot for the eastern
    >> side of Scotland as far north as St. Andrews.
    >> was thinking about driving from London to York, up to Durham, then
    >> Edinburgh, St. Andrews, back down towards Hadrian's Wall (perhaps via
    >> Glasgow?) then down to Warwick, Cotswolds, Bath and back to London?
    >Long trip, if as I think that's Bank Holiday week it'll be very
    >congested in parts (around Birmingham and Manchester), but it's
    >do-able. Perhaps St Andrews is a bit too much though. Even if you were
    >into hiking I'd say avoid the Lake District, beautiful but dreadfully
    >crowded at holiday times. I agree that Wales is well worth considering
    >for castles; there are 2 main areas
    >1) the south (Monmouthshire/Glamorgan); across the Severn Bridge from
    >England, along the M4 from London
    >2) the northwest; Conwy, Caernarfon etc.
    >If you're really into castles you'd be a fool not to go to Wales. I
    >agree with that other poster that the southern part is easily reached
    >from Bath/Cotswolds, far more so than say Cornwall.
    >There are also plenty of castles scattered around the north of England;
    >although Newcastle hasn't got much castle left it's worth visiting.
    >Edmund

Following up to Steve C

    >I'm starting to think southwest England is out due to excessive
    >driving if we go all the way up to York and then back down to Bath.
    >perhaps will try the Glasgo angle.

nobody in UK would think of combining SW with York! Bath,
Pembrokeshire Coast in Wales (similar SW coast) and
cornwall/Devon makes sense for one of your trips. I imagine for
an American the SW roads will seem difficult, as another poster
said, so dont hire a Hummer! (There is fast road access nowadays,
most of the way there, if you want it).
--
Mike Reid
Wasdale-Thames path-London-Photos "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" <-- you can email us@ this site
Eat-walk-Spain "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk" <-- dontuse@ all, it's a spamtrap

Following up to Dan Stephenson

    >If really want to see Castle, you need to go to Wales. They have all
    >the best castles, particularly up in the northwest with Caenarvon,
    >Harlech, Conway and Beaumaris.

you see, we had to keep them in check! :-)
--
Mike Reid
Wasdale-Thames path-London-Photos "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" <-- you can email us@ this site
Eat-walk-Spain "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk" <-- dontuse@ all, it's a spamtrap

"Steve C" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > <snip>
    > we go to somewhere in the U.K. every year now since 1999 and the only
    > place we haven't been is to the southwest. the kids want to go back to
    > Bath and I'd like to see Kenilworth again since I think it's a
    > beautiful castle ruin (although it was raining pretty good when we
    > were there).
    > our idea is that we will go to Bath no matter what (will be our 3rd
    > trip although the first one was quick and a coach tour from London)
    > and it isn't that far from London anyway since I'll probably be
    > driving.
    > <snip>
    > I'm starting to think southwest England is out due to excessive
    > driving if we go all the way up to York and then back down to Bath.
    > perhaps will try the Glasgo angle.

Well, if you've never been to the southwest and you're going to Bath for
sure, why not go to Somerset, Devon, and Cornwall? Lots to see there, but
not so many castles. All the King Arthur stuff should be of interest to
kids. Though I'm not sure Tintagel counts as a castle. Also, from Bath, you
can nip over in Wales for the southern castles. We found Tintern Abbey very
impressive.

Marianne

In article <[email protected]>, Steve C
<[email protected]> wrote:

    > so any suggestions for southern Wales? some folks have mentioned a
    > couple of places that sound doable.

I highly recommend visiting Tintern Abbey, the ruins are nice and it
has a great great setting. If you're into castles, you really need to
visit Caerphilly Castle, in Caerphilly. Raglan, Grosmont, White and
Skenfrith are also castle ruins in the borders area.

    > also castles in the north of England? have been to Alnwyck (sp?) and
    > Durham Cathedral, but not much else north of York (one of my favorite
    > Medieval cities).

If you're into ruins as much as I am, then I recommend visiting
Fountains Abbey just outside of Ripon. Ripon is also a nice place unto
itself.

While you're up there, you might consider visiting the Royal Armouries
in Leeds. It found it fascinating and a whole-day trip. And you
youngins would probably like it too.

--
Dan Stephenson
Photos and movies from US Parks and all over Europe:
http://homepage.mac.com/stepheda

Are any of these places accessible by a short (15-20 min) walk from a
train station, or Postbus stop? Do they even have a version of the
Swiss/Austrian Postbuses in England?
--
wf.

Dan Stephenson wrote:
    >
    > In article <[email protected]>, Steve C
    > <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > > so any suggestions for southern Wales? some folks have mentioned a
    > > couple of places that sound doable.
    >
    > I highly recommend visiting Tintern Abbey, the ruins are nice and it
    > has a great great setting. If you're into castles, you really need to
    > visit Caerphilly Castle, in Caerphilly. Raglan, Grosmont, White and
    > Skenfrith are also castle ruins in the borders area.
    >
    > > also castles in the north of England? have been to Alnwyck (sp?) and
    > > Durham Cathedral, but not much else north of York (one of my favorite
    > > Medieval cities).
    >
    > If you're into ruins as much as I am, then I recommend visiting
    > Fountains Abbey just outside of Ripon. Ripon is also a nice place unto
    > itself.
    >
    > While you're up there, you might consider visiting the Royal Armouries
    > in Leeds. It found it fascinating and a whole-day trip. And you
    > youngins would probably like it too.
    >

Following up to randee

    >Are any of these places accessible by a short (15-20 min) walk from a
    >train station, or Postbus stop?

I would have thought there was public transport to most if not
all of those popular sights? It will take longer than by car of
course and note the OP intends to drive.

    >Do they even have a version of the
    >Swiss/Austrian Postbuses in England?

Of course we have buses. What feature do you see as different
from any other bus?
--
Mike Reid
Wasdale-Thames path-London-Photos "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" <-- you can email us@ this site
Eat-walk-Spain "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk" <-- dontuse@ all, it's a spamtrap

On Fri, 08 Apr 2005 09:59:27 +0100, The Reids
<[email protected]> wrote:

    >Following up to randee
    >>Are any of these places accessible by a short (15-20 min) walk from a
    >>train station, or Postbus stop?
    >I would have thought there was public transport to most if not
    >all of those popular sights? It will take longer than by car of
    >course and note the OP intends to drive.
    >>Do they even have a version of the
    >>Swiss/Austrian Postbuses in England?
    >Of course we have buses.

but not "Postbuses" AFAIK

    >What feature do you see as different
    >from any other bus?

I think you probably don't understand what Swiss/Austrian Postbuses
are.

The Postbuses are primarily used to deliver mail from village to
village but they also tale passengers usually by a circuitous route.
driven by somebody like Herr Postman Pat.

Use them if there is no alternative and you have plenty of time
otherwise avoid like the plague. I once spent 4 hours in a German
postbus in Saar to do a trip that took less than 30 minutes in a car.

A Dutch postbus is a post box.

    >>> Do they even have a version of the
    >>> Swiss/Austrian Postbuses in England?
    >> Of course we have buses.
    > but not "Postbuses" AFAIK
    >> What feature do you see as different from any other bus?
    > I think you probably don't understand what Swiss/Austrian Postbuses
    > are.
    > The Postbuses are primarily used to deliver mail from village to
    > village but they also tale passengers usually by a circuitous route.
    > driven by somebody like Herr Postman Pat.

They do exist in Scotland, and I suspect in remote parts
of England. There's even one that does the villages a few
miles south of here in Midlothian not served by the normal
bus routes - it's the only public transport to Crichton
(which has a castle in a spectacular setting, one of the
most dramatic in Scotland). Another one I know about goes
from Invershiel to Glenelg to Arnisdale in the West Highlands.
I've never been on one, though.

============== j-c ====== @ ====== purr . demon . co . uk ==============
Jack Campin: 11 Third St, Newtongrange EH22 4PU, Scotland | tel 0131 660 4760
<http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack/> for CD-ROMs and free | fax 0870 0554 975
stuff: Scottish music, food intolerance, & Mac logic fonts | mob 07800 739 557

Following up to nitram

    >The Postbuses are primarily used to deliver mail from village to
    >village but they also tale passengers usually by a circuitous route.
    >driven by somebody like Herr Postman Pat.

you do get a very few in UK, Wasdale has/had one.
--
Mike Reid
Wasdale-Thames path-London-Photos "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" <-- you can email us@ this site
Eat-walk-Spain "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk" <-- dontuse@ all, it's a spamtrap

Slightly more than a very few, there are 200 routes carrying 125,000
passengers a year. Have a look at
http://www.royalmail.com/portal/rm/postbus (hope that one works, if not
try the Royal Mail site and use search).

Michael