-Martin

On 13 May 2007 22:49:31 -0700, george <[email protected]> wrote:

>On Apr 16, 5:49 am, Alan S <[email protected]> wrote:
>> On Sun, 15 Apr 2007 16:39:30 GMT, Mike Lane
>>
>>
>>
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>> >On Sun, 15 Apr 2007 11:32:36 +0100, Steve G wrote
>> >(in article <[email protected] .com>):
>>
>> >> Looking for recommendations. Me, I like famous dead guys and famous
>> >> dead civilizations. My wife, she likes good dining and relaxing on
>> >> the beach. We're thinking after the Greece leg of our future
>> >> vacation, we might hop over to Santorini and spend several days
>> >> there. I can see the ruins of "Atlantis", and we can eat, drink, and
>> >> lay on the beach. But when I see the condition of the ruins at
>> >> Knossos, I wonder if Knossos/Crete might be a better stop for us. Any
>> >> thoughts plus/minus appreciated. Thanks as always.
>>
>> >I was not particularly impressed by the Palace of Knossos when I visited it a
>> >few years ago. As you probably know, the ruins were first excavated around
>> >1900 by Sir Arthur Evans who promptly set about enthusiastically 'restoring'
>> >them to what he imagined they looked like originally. So what is on view is
>> >largely an elaborate fake - not much more than 100 years old.
>>
>> >Far more impressive in my view is the ancient site at Mycenae in the
>> >Peloponnese. Here you really get an overwhelming sense of antiquity. The
>> >surroundings are also much more in keeping. Knossos is on the outskirts of
>> >Iraklion (the capital of Crete) which it seems to me is a particularly dreary
>> >town, looking somewhat as if it is suffering from the results of an explosion
>> >in a cement factory
>>
>> Can't comment on Knossos - I still want to see it. I agree
>> on Mycenae; not as elaborate as the Acropolis but the sense
>> of antiquity is there. Go at a time when others don't, to be
>> able to sit and muse.
>>
>> Cheers, Alan, Australia
>> --http://loraltravel.blogspot.com/
>> latest: Athens and The Adriatichttp://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com/
>
>
>I fondly remember visiting the acropolis in Sparta. Set amidst an
>olive grove, in Spring it was wonderful in the evening with the birds
>singing and the sun setting over the large snow covered mountains,
>just magical even if there were hardly any ruins. The acropolis in
>Athens was one of the worst places we visited, jam-packed with hordes
>of tourists so that it couldn't be enjoyed at all.
>
>I agree about Mycenae, and Santorini is excllent for the nice views
>and houses perched on the cliffsides, but for ruins and beachs you
>ought to be able to do much better.

Did you visit the ruins in Akrotiri and the adjacent black beaches?
--

Martin

T.

Steve G wrote:
> Any
> thoughts plus/minus appreciated. Thanks as always.

We're thinking about flying to Crete, then renting a car and doing a
tour of Crete, with one day excursion to Santorini.

If someone did a tour of Crete on their own, I'd appreciate all the
suggestions (B&Bs or hotels en routes, restaurants beaches, and musts
not mentioned in the usual guidebooks).

Mister Max

"T." <[email protected]> posted:

> Steve G wrote:
>> Any
>> thoughts plus/minus appreciated. Thanks as always.
>
> We're thinking about flying to Crete, then renting a car and doing a
> tour of Crete, with one day excursion to Santorini.
>
> If someone did a tour of Crete on their own, I'd appreciate all the
> suggestions (B&Bs or hotels en routes, restaurants beaches, and musts
> not mentioned in the usual guidebooks).
>
>

We rented a car and toured Crete for 3 1/2 weeks. Our best guide to the
beaches was the nudist site, http://www.barefoot.info/greekgde.html, even
though we're not nudists. Captain Barefoot also guided us to Kalamaki, a
lovely beach resort town. The southwest part of Crete was the least
overbuilt we saw - without the big resorts of the north coast. As
mentioned earlier in the thread, Knossos is like Disneyland - an early
20th century conception of what ancient Minoa was like - newly (re)
constructed. And crowded except when the tours go to lunch.
Festos is a real ruin and better.
The Archaeological Museum in Heraklion has some of the original Minoan
stuff from Knossos - especially notable are the golden bee and the full-
breasted godesses.
Eat at the Ouzeri Terzakis in Heraklion. The food is good and there's a
takeoug menu which will help you translate Greek to English. Also eat at
Hippocampus. Our hotel laughed because I failed to pronounce it with the
accent on "poc"

Going to Santorini for a day is contrary to my usual advice to go to
fewer places and stay longer, but a ride down to the caldera and a boat
tour around it would make a good day. Akrotiri was just stone
foundations covered in yellow dust. The opposite of Knossos, with
sneezing.

Photos and more stories on both islands at http://buten.net/max

--
Max Buten

Travel photos: http://buten.net/max
More photos: http://pbase.com/mistermax

-Martin

On Mon, 14 May 2007 19:50:49 -0500, Mister Max <[email protected]> wrote:

>Akrotiri was just stone
>foundations covered in yellow dust.

Hardly, parts are two floors high. Did you actually go in?

http://volcano.und.edu/vwdocs/volc_i...santorini.html
http://www.loeser.us/examples/santorini.html
--

Martin

Mister Max

Martin <[email protected]> posted:

> On Mon, 14 May 2007 19:50:49 -0500, Mister Max <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>>Akrotiri was just stone
>>foundations covered in yellow dust.
>
> Hardly, parts are two floors high. Did you actually go in?
>
> http://www.loeser.us/examples/santorini.html

Good photos on this site, looking better than I remember it. The modern
construction seems just to have the function of holding up the ancient
walls, not reconstructing it to a modern interpretation as in Knossos.

- Max


--
Max Buten

Travel photos: http://buten.net/max
More photos: http://pbase.com/mistermax

-Martin

On Tue, 15 May 2007 12:25:46 -0500, Mister Max <[email protected]> wrote:

>Martin <[email protected]> posted:
>
>> On Mon, 14 May 2007 19:50:49 -0500, Mister Max <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>Akrotiri was just stone
>>>foundations covered in yellow dust.
>>
>> Hardly, parts are two floors high. Did you actually go in?
>>
>> http://www.loeser.us/examples/santorini.html
>
>Good photos on this site, looking better than I remember it.

It looks exactly the way I remember it :-)

> The modern
>construction seems just to have the function of holding up the ancient
>walls, not reconstructing it to a modern interpretation as in Knossos.

The modern construction was already there in 1980. It's to keep the sun off
visitors and archeologists. You can find similar ones over other ancient sites,
for example over Nestor's Palace, near Pylos.
Knossos is more of a theme park than the real thing.
--

Martin

A.Spencer3

Personally I'd choose Crete, if a choice needs to be made. But Crete plus a
day or two in Santorini is perfectly possible.

I copy below a piece I wrote a few years back:

This is an account of our recent rather quick dash around Minoan remains.
As some will know in this ng, we're not expert travellers amongst classical
& ancient ruins, but nevertheless we are enthusiastic and enjoy it to the
full! Our favoured areas are North Africa & Middle East (i.e. deserts
combined with ruins!). But thanks to Bush, recent scrambles have been a
little closer to home.
Having 'done' the Myceneans about 35 years ago, we thought it was time to
follow up with those lovely peaceable Minoans that they apparently then
clobbered.
It was therefore a 'learning trip' for us, starting at virtually zero
knowledge. So these remarks are by no means for those already knowledgeable,
but might have some use for similar tyros to us who still have the delights
of Knossos & co. ahead of them.
We based in Crete, during the middle two weeks of October, at Rethymno - the
third largest town of Crete and a delightful venue in its own right. Its
additional virtues are that it is centrally placed for many Crete sites, and
also has a direct ferry to Thera (Santorini). Heraklion might be a slightly
better communications centre, and is very close to Knossos, but would be by
no means as pleasant a base.
Knossos, of course, was one of the main attractions. Thankfully, Schliemann
was stopped by the Turks from carving one of his trenches through, a la
Troy, and a rather more careful British archeologist, Arthur Evans, started
up around 1900. Evans, too, however, has his harsh critics. Having uncovered
the central palace site, he proceeded rather clumsily and 'imaginatively' to
reconstruct up to 5 (I think) storey levels. Purists condemned this early
Disneyland. Others say that, at least, an impression is thus given of the
original magnificence of the buildings, and that Evans probably 'got it
moreorless right'. Both are probably true. But, since the reconstructions
are now there, it was suggested that Knossos was thus visited first, which
would give a visual impression that could greatly aid 'interpretation' on
other more conventionally excavated sites.
This, we found, is so.
Reconstituted or not (and many areas are not) Knossos is a splendid site to
visit. There is no point in going into all the intricacies of the aspects to
view - far too many, and all details are readily available on many websites
& books, anyway. So I'll limit my remarks to a beginner's impressions and
any practical tips for other first-time visitors.
Ideally, do not go on a 'packaged' coach tour. The guides are only repeating
basic information that is readily obtained beforehand. The site is quite
compact and easily navigated with a site map. The guided tours do 'rush' you
round in about 90 minutes or so - heresy! And, of course, they arrive
alongside all the other guided tours, and so, for several particular
features, you find yourself in massive queues, even in October. Goodness
knows what the peak season must be like.
Preferably, Knossos is easily reached by bus or car from very nearby
Heraklion, and you can time your arrival for earlier morning or afternoon,
missing the late morning coach tour peak.
One of the theories of the 'Labyrinth' legend/myth is that it comes from the
pure complexity of the palace buildings and interconnecting corridors. This
could well be right! We tracked the major features by map but then gave up
being clever and just wandered, soaking it all up.
One area, to the east of the central court and easily identifiable, we found
the most attractive. It is a 'well' of two or three stories, with staircases
and with Evans' full colour rebuilding, that massively shows the sheer
beauty of Minoan architecture and its famous 'light wells'.
Another underated feature we enjoyed was the Royal Road, approached by a
wide staircase to the north-west of the site. This apparently connected with
other Minoan cities right across Crete and is dubbed 'the oldest road in
Europe'. Easily identifiable and paved, we walked along it for some 100
yards - it apparently continues for some further hundreds of yards until
hitting a modern road. It seems inconceivable, if the account is true, that
this 3,500-year-old road is not being excavated in full wherever possible.
Presumably it runs for some 100+ miles!
We got chatting to this 'old bloke' whilst rewatering (hitting 100F in
mid-October 'thanks' to a hot wind from Libya!) who turned out to be the
now-retired chief on-site guide, and who can't stay away from the place!
Presumably he knows what he is talking about, and we found his account of
the mythology basis interesting. Broadly, the myths say that youths from
dependent territories were sent to Knossos annually, put into the labyrinth
and sacrificed to the bull/man Minotaur. Above, I related one account where
the labyrinth was supposed to be simply the 'labyrinth' of palace corridors.
His account, however, was totally novel to us. The recurring motif of the
palace is a double-headed axe, carved into the stones all over. the word for
this axe was 'lab'. 'Labyrinth' was therefore the word for 'the place of the
axe'. Alongside this, bull masks have been uncovered which were presumably
used for ceremonial purposes. In practice, therefore, those youths may
simply have been summoned to Knossos to masked ceremonies! Those more
knowledgeable may well be able to inform us whether we were being had or
not!
Also, to dispel some popular beliefs that may remain, the Knossos palace was
not destroyed by the tidal wave from the Thera (Santorini) volcanic
explosion (apparently the largest ever, including Krakatoa, and giving for
some the basis of the Atlantis myths). The tidal wave from this did indeed
smash the Minoan ports and therefore greatly harmed trade. The volcanic dust
may well also have greatly harmed agriculture for a long period of time.
Santorini possibly therefore was the beginning of the end. Excavations
suggest, however, that the Minoans continued for some scores of years.
However, their peacetime architecture changed to fortified towns, suggesting
the start of the Mycenean invasions against a weakened state. And, around
100(?) years after Santorini, a distinct level of ash shows the final
destruction of the Knossos palace itself, presumably by the Myceneans.
Any Knossos visit would probably be combined with the obligatory visit to
Heraklion Museum nearby, which is where the vast majority of finds are
displayed, including the glorious and famous coloured frescos and a mass of
statuary, pottery, jewellery etc. in very well laid-out, modern (and air
conditioned!) buildings.
We only had time to go to one other major Minoan site on Crete itself, and
thank goodness we did! This was to Phaistos in the south of Crete. It is
difficult to believe that no Evans-style restoration has taken place. Apart
from the fact that Knossos did give a flavour of the multi-storied
multi-coloured architecture, Phaistos is so open that the spread of
courtyards, staircases, multi-levels etc. can somehow be far better imagined
than in the 'closed-in' and far more crowded surroundings of Knossos. One
can still walk from cellar levels up to around fifth storeys, due to its
hillside base, and in many places massive storage pots etc.are still there
in situ.
And, beyond that, is Phaistos' incomparable position, high on a ridge in the
middle of a fertile plain rolling down to the Libyan Sea. The views are
incomparable and by no means trite to mention - apparently this was the very
reason for the positioning of this magnificent palace! Somehow, we both
enjoyed it rather more than Knossos, which was totally unexpected!
The other Minoan trip was to the relatively recently excavated Akrotiri,
which had to be our most imagination-stirring visit.
Akrotiri?
Well, first, one unfortunately has to endure a 4-hour ferry run, under the
yellow stuff and through the blue stuff, to this island called Thera, which
really could have been rather a bore - except for that fact that it's
probably better known as Santorini! If it hadn't already been done thousands
of times, I could write a travelogue, take videos, expound for hours and
still never describe the total wonder of riding the prow of the ferry into
this 32-square mile sea-filled caldera, with the 'new' volcano already
rising as two islands in the centre, surrounded by the remaining rims of the
original large island, along the tops of which - 1,000 ft. up - string the
modern towns. Unbelievable stuff. Luckily a long day return on the ferry
allows plenty of hours in which to soak up all this. Hint - don't try
walking up the path from the harbour to the caldera rim and Fera town -
walking down it killed us!
After the obligatory and equally boring drinks on the 1,000 ft. terraces, we
were ready to continue on the far more important (well, maybe!) detour to
the bit of the rim on which lies Akrotiri.
Unbelievably, Akrotiri is the remains of the Minoan town that was on
Santorini before the volcano blew around 1,500BC.
I had always assumed - bearing in mind the devastation caused in Crete by
the explosion - that even if there had been anything on the original island,
it had been totally blown away, including Atlantis.
Much of Akrotiri was, of course, blown away. Its site moves up to the rim of
the caldera and then, of course, disappears. But on the seaward slope, the
town was somehow protected from the blast and instantly covered by volcanic
ash, a la Pompei, etc.
Human activity ceased a bit, of course! But now being uncovered is an
unbelievably intact pre-volcano Minoan town. All naturally effectively
underground it is all being protected by a hideously expensive roof courtesy
of the EU. One shame is that the rafters of this roof (to be removed after
construction finishes) tend to spoil the effect. Suddenly, you realise that
(up to and beyond the rafters) you are walking down 3,500-year old Minoan
streets through still-remaining two- & three-storey buildings. Awesome!
It's already a large site, but is apparently only around 10% of what is
still there. So it looks as if there are another 3,500 years of digging to
come! We were told how the massive importance of this site is not simply its
unforgettable outward appearance, but the colossal quantities of remains
found in situ, providing a mountain of new data on Minoan economics, living,
trade, crafts, raw materials, farming, metalwork, shipping, etc. etc.
Well, that was it - apart from another side trip en route to Phaistos.
We went to Gortyn which, being only 'dug' for a very small proportion of its
area, could easily be missed. But what an omission that would be! There was
a Minoan town here, but the relatively sparse remains of any size are Roman,
including a very good Byzantine church on the site of the first, 3rd.
century, Christian church in Crete.
But the major site has to be a wall, some 12ft. high by some 50 ft. long
covered in a mass of very early Greek inscriptions - they are laws, and
represent the largest single area of ancient writing in Europe. I didn't
even know of them, and to see them is something else.
Also, we were shown hundreds of acres of fields, amongst which undug remains
poked here and there - a massive site. The reason? Well, we were told that
Gortyn was not merely the Roman capital of Crete but of a whole province
that included much of North Africa, which it faces. Again, I'd never even
heard of it (well, I did say we were amateurs!). If this is so, this must be
a site of amazing potential. This is something I must follow up.
So, that was our first taste of the Minoans. I hope any others still to see
all this for the first time lap it up as enjoyably as did we.
Any (fully expected!) corrections from those more knowledgeable to any of
our assumptions etc. would always be very welcome.
But in our blissful ignorance, the whole initial experience was superb.

"T." <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected] oups.com...
> Steve G wrote:
> > Any
> > thoughts plus/minus appreciated. Thanks as always.
>
> We're thinking about flying to Crete, then renting a car and doing a
> tour of Crete, with one day excursion to Santorini.
>
> If someone did a tour of Crete on their own, I'd appreciate all the
> suggestions (B&Bs or hotels en routes, restaurants beaches, and musts
> not mentioned in the usual guidebooks).
>