Russia and the Urals
Oct 23rd 2004, 8:40 pm
#1
Guest
Posts: n/a
Russia and the Urals
Several months ago I asked everybody about the Urals.
I've learned many interesting facts about foreign people and their
thoughts about Russia :-)
For example - many people say that all the territory to the east from
St. Petersburg and Moscow - is Siberia, some people think that all
Russia is just a criminal country :-)
I wouldn't say that it's true (because I was born and live here :-)
I'm making the web-site about the Ural Mountains (www.welcome-ural.ru)
and I'd like to know
what you think about it?
You can say all what you think! If it's possible please also write to
[email protected]
I'll appreciate any critics and advise and certainly answer all
possible questions.
Best regards!
Dmitriy Voroschuk
I've learned many interesting facts about foreign people and their
thoughts about Russia :-)
For example - many people say that all the territory to the east from
St. Petersburg and Moscow - is Siberia, some people think that all
Russia is just a criminal country :-)
I wouldn't say that it's true (because I was born and live here :-)
I'm making the web-site about the Ural Mountains (www.welcome-ural.ru)
and I'd like to know
what you think about it?
You can say all what you think! If it's possible please also write to
[email protected]
I'll appreciate any critics and advise and certainly answer all
possible questions.
Best regards!
Dmitriy Voroschuk
Oct 24th 2004, 4:40 am
#2
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Russia and the Urals
non-smoking restaurants in Russia
http://www.smokefreeworld.com/europe.shtml#rus
http://www.smokefreeworld.com/europe.shtml#rus
Oct 24th 2004, 10:06 am
#3
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Russia and the Urals
On 24 Oct 2004 01:40:29 -0700, [email protected] (Dmitrij) wrote:
>Several months ago I asked everybody about the Urals.
>I've learned many interesting facts about foreign people and their
>thoughts about Russia :-)
>For example - many people say that all the territory to the east from
>St. Petersburg and Moscow - is Siberia, some people think that all
>Russia is just a criminal country :-)
>I wouldn't say that it's true (because I was born and live here :-)
>I'm making the web-site about the Ural Mountains (www.welcome-ural.ru)
>and I'd like to know
>what you think about it?
>You can say all what you think! If it's possible please also write to
>[email protected]
>I'll appreciate any critics and advise and certainly answer all
>possible questions.
As I have said before in this forum, I don't think much of Russia.
A criminal country? That's not really accurate, but there is certainly
plenty of criminal activity to go around.
Visiting Russia is difficult, as you have to deal with the cumbersome,
and apparently largely uneccessary visa process, which is expensive
and time consuming. Distances are great, and outside of St Peter and
Moscow, it is a very difficult country for independent travel.
One of the things I found curious about Russia, is that there is still
a view there that somehow the West envies aspects of the Russian way
of life. This is of course a massive delusion, which is best
illustrated by simply seeing how the former states of the USSR have
chosen to look firmy west, and have nothing good to say about their
days in Moscows orbit. I don't believe anyone from the West envies
anything inside of Russia!
Apart from some cool architecture and museums, I cant find much to
recommend Russia. It is of course an interesting experience, but not
an altogether pleasant one. The atmosphere in Moscow is brittle, and
intimidating, much of which relates to the problems in Chechnya etc.
at the moment. Outside of the Kremlin area, there aren't a great deal
of tourists sites either, and accomodation is expensive too. Little
effort appears to be made in Moscow to make the place easy for
tourists either, with every sign in Russian only, and even really
obvious things like putting the station names up in each metro station
seem to be completely overlooked. If there is a tourist information
office, I couldn't find it!
Food is pretty rough in Moscow too. There are some reasonable
restaurants, but they are usually expensive. Tourists often are
charged more too, as I found out the hard way. In fact, the Russians
seem to view all tourists as being wealthy, and fair game for being
ripped off. There are many dubious tourist agencies, and if they rip
you off, there is probably nothing you can do about it. An Australian
couple I met were promised they would be picked up in Moscow, and they
weren't. They were also to have their visas registered, and they
weren't. Then they had their digi camera stolen from the hotel they
were placed in. Then their 'reserved' bus seats were double booked.
OK, so maybe they had an exceptionally bad time, but I found the same
level of incompetence,dishonesty and rudeness pretty consistent
throughout the place too. I had one woman refuse to get out of my
chair on a bus, and eventually I got so irate I dragged her out by the
hair and threw her on the floor. In Russia, kinds words, manners and
patience seem to be largely a waste of time.
OK, good things about the place: Alcohol. Yep, it's available
everywhere, and is cheap, and generally good quality. I found myself
drunk much of the time, as that makes it a bit easier to get into the
Russian way of doing things.
Also, St Petersburg is just plain phenomenal in terms of architecture,
and rivals anywhere else in Europe. That in itself is almost worth the
hastle of getting visas.
Hmmm.... can't think of much other good stuff. Perhaps I am being a
bit unfair, but I think there are many, many other places that are far
more rewarding to visit than Russia.
---
DFM
>Several months ago I asked everybody about the Urals.
>I've learned many interesting facts about foreign people and their
>thoughts about Russia :-)
>For example - many people say that all the territory to the east from
>St. Petersburg and Moscow - is Siberia, some people think that all
>Russia is just a criminal country :-)
>I wouldn't say that it's true (because I was born and live here :-)
>I'm making the web-site about the Ural Mountains (www.welcome-ural.ru)
>and I'd like to know
>what you think about it?
>You can say all what you think! If it's possible please also write to
>[email protected]
>I'll appreciate any critics and advise and certainly answer all
>possible questions.
As I have said before in this forum, I don't think much of Russia.
A criminal country? That's not really accurate, but there is certainly
plenty of criminal activity to go around.
Visiting Russia is difficult, as you have to deal with the cumbersome,
and apparently largely uneccessary visa process, which is expensive
and time consuming. Distances are great, and outside of St Peter and
Moscow, it is a very difficult country for independent travel.
One of the things I found curious about Russia, is that there is still
a view there that somehow the West envies aspects of the Russian way
of life. This is of course a massive delusion, which is best
illustrated by simply seeing how the former states of the USSR have
chosen to look firmy west, and have nothing good to say about their
days in Moscows orbit. I don't believe anyone from the West envies
anything inside of Russia!
Apart from some cool architecture and museums, I cant find much to
recommend Russia. It is of course an interesting experience, but not
an altogether pleasant one. The atmosphere in Moscow is brittle, and
intimidating, much of which relates to the problems in Chechnya etc.
at the moment. Outside of the Kremlin area, there aren't a great deal
of tourists sites either, and accomodation is expensive too. Little
effort appears to be made in Moscow to make the place easy for
tourists either, with every sign in Russian only, and even really
obvious things like putting the station names up in each metro station
seem to be completely overlooked. If there is a tourist information
office, I couldn't find it!
Food is pretty rough in Moscow too. There are some reasonable
restaurants, but they are usually expensive. Tourists often are
charged more too, as I found out the hard way. In fact, the Russians
seem to view all tourists as being wealthy, and fair game for being
ripped off. There are many dubious tourist agencies, and if they rip
you off, there is probably nothing you can do about it. An Australian
couple I met were promised they would be picked up in Moscow, and they
weren't. They were also to have their visas registered, and they
weren't. Then they had their digi camera stolen from the hotel they
were placed in. Then their 'reserved' bus seats were double booked.
OK, so maybe they had an exceptionally bad time, but I found the same
level of incompetence,dishonesty and rudeness pretty consistent
throughout the place too. I had one woman refuse to get out of my
chair on a bus, and eventually I got so irate I dragged her out by the
hair and threw her on the floor. In Russia, kinds words, manners and
patience seem to be largely a waste of time.
OK, good things about the place: Alcohol. Yep, it's available
everywhere, and is cheap, and generally good quality. I found myself
drunk much of the time, as that makes it a bit easier to get into the
Russian way of doing things.
Also, St Petersburg is just plain phenomenal in terms of architecture,
and rivals anywhere else in Europe. That in itself is almost worth the
hastle of getting visas.
Hmmm.... can't think of much other good stuff. Perhaps I am being a
bit unfair, but I think there are many, many other places that are far
more rewarding to visit than Russia.
---
DFM
Oct 25th 2004, 3:34 am
#4
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Russia and the Urals
Deep Frayed Morgues <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>. ..
>
> I found myself drunk much of the time,
That figures.
Bjorn
>
> I found myself drunk much of the time,
That figures.
Bjorn
Oct 25th 2004, 6:05 am
#5
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Russia and the Urals
On 25 Oct 2004 08:34:30 -0700, [email protected] (Bjorn Olsson) wrote:
>Deep Frayed Morgues <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>. ..
>>
>> I found myself drunk much of the time,
>That figures.
Grind that axe, Bjorn, grind!
---
DFM
>Deep Frayed Morgues <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>. ..
>>
>> I found myself drunk much of the time,
>That figures.
Grind that axe, Bjorn, grind!
---
DFM
Oct 26th 2004, 12:03 am
#6
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Russia and the Urals
Deep Frayed Morgues wrote:
> On 24 Oct 2004 01:40:29 -0700, [email protected] (Dmitrij) wrote:
> >Several months ago I asked everybody about the Urals.
> >I've learned many interesting facts about foreign people and their
> >thoughts about Russia :-)
> >For example - many people say that all the territory to the east from
> >St. Petersburg and Moscow - is Siberia, some people think that all
> >Russia is just a criminal country :-)
> >I wouldn't say that it's true (because I was born and live here :-)
> >I'm making the web-site about the Ural Mountains (www.welcome-ural.ru)
> >and I'd like to know
> >what you think about it?
> >You can say all what you think! If it's possible please also write to
> >[email protected]
> >I'll appreciate any critics and advise and certainly answer all
> >possible questions.
> As I have said before in this forum, I don't think much of Russia.
> A criminal country? That's not really accurate, but there is certainly
> plenty of criminal activity to go around.
> Visiting Russia is difficult, as you have to deal with the cumbersome,
> and apparently largely uneccessary visa process, which is expensive
> and time consuming. Distances are great, and outside of St Peter and
> Moscow, it is a very difficult country for independent travel.
Decent hotels at a fair price are well - nigh impossible to find. Nice
hotels of an international class are absurdly expensive, mid - price hotels
basically do not exist, and the cheaper places are ghastly Soviet - era
monstrosities that come complete with rusty water from the taps,
cockroaches, and laughably crummy 70's - era furnishings....
At least the infamous Soviet - era Rossiya in Red Square is going to be
demolished, but there is a crying need for better and more mid - priced
tourist lodgings. But since foreign tourism barely registers as a
moneymaker in Russia don't look for such places anytime soon...
> One of the things I found curious about Russia, is that there is still
> a view there that somehow the West envies aspects of the Russian way
> of life. This is of course a massive delusion, which is best
> illustrated by simply seeing how the former states of the USSR have
> chosen to look firmy west, and have nothing good to say about their
> days in Moscows orbit. I don't believe anyone from the West envies
> anything inside of Russia!
This attitude is a holdover from the propaganda of the old USSR days. One
has to feel sorry for the Russians, they don't even realise they are a
century or more behind the modern world...
> Apart from some cool architecture and museums, I cant find much to
> recommend Russia. It is of course an interesting experience, but not
> an altogether pleasant one. The atmosphere in Moscow is brittle, and
> intimidating, much of which relates to the problems in Chechnya etc.
> at the moment. Outside of the Kremlin area, there aren't a great deal
> of tourists sites either, and accomodation is expensive too. Little
> effort appears to be made in Moscow to make the place easy for
> tourists either, with every sign in Russian only, and even really
> obvious things like putting the station names up in each metro station
> seem to be completely overlooked. If there is a tourist information
> office, I couldn't find it!
Only now are the city fathers in Moscow even coming 'round to the concept of
setting up a tourist information office...read something about it in the
_Moscow Times_ a while back. In any other place it could be up and running
fairly soon, but not in Moscow! There are committees, deliberations,
etc...there is a target date for sometime in 2005 IIRC but it will probably
be delayed a few more years, who knows!?
Don't forget the positively dreadful Sheremetyevo airport in Moscow,
consistently rated one of the world's very worst international gateways, and
a real introduction to the Russian "experience". Of course Aeroflot has had
plans for years now to "improve" the place, but they remain just that -
plans. Several airlines (BA, Swiss, etc.) have in disgust moved to the much
nicer Domodedovo...
> Food is pretty rough in Moscow too. There are some reasonable
> restaurants, but they are usually expensive. Tourists often are
> charged more too, as I found out the hard way. In fact, the Russians
> seem to view all tourists as being wealthy, and fair game for being
> ripped off. There are many dubious tourist agencies, and if they rip
> you off, there is probably nothing you can do about it. An Australian
> couple I met were promised they would be picked up in Moscow, and they
> weren't. They were also to have their visas registered, and they
> weren't. Then they had their digi camera stolen from the hotel they
> were placed in. Then their 'reserved' bus seats were double booked.
> OK, so maybe they had an exceptionally bad time, but I found the same
> level of incompetence,dishonesty and rudeness pretty consistent
> throughout the place too. I had one woman refuse to get out of my
> chair on a bus, and eventually I got so irate I dragged her out by the
> hair and threw her on the floor.
*lol* You caveman, you!
;-)
In Russia, kinds words, manners and
> patience seem to be largely a waste of time.
I'd say of this of Russians *anywhere* they are in the world...a positively
miserable bunch altogether. They sure are like this in Chicago, and the
older ones have been here for decades...
> OK, good things about the place: Alcohol. Yep, it's available
> everywhere, and is cheap, and generally good quality. I found myself
> drunk much of the time, as that makes it a bit easier to get into the
> Russian way of doing things.
> Also, St Petersburg is just plain phenomenal in terms of architecture,
> and rivals anywhere else in Europe. That in itself is almost worth the
> hastle of getting visas.
> Hmmm.... can't think of much other good stuff. Perhaps I am being a
> bit unfair, but I think there are many, many other places that are far
> more rewarding to visit than Russia.
Whilst on holiday the vast majority of people want to have a pleasant time
and of course this is not possible in Russia. It's more of an endurance
test, really. Who needs it?
--
Best
Greg
> On 24 Oct 2004 01:40:29 -0700, [email protected] (Dmitrij) wrote:
> >Several months ago I asked everybody about the Urals.
> >I've learned many interesting facts about foreign people and their
> >thoughts about Russia :-)
> >For example - many people say that all the territory to the east from
> >St. Petersburg and Moscow - is Siberia, some people think that all
> >Russia is just a criminal country :-)
> >I wouldn't say that it's true (because I was born and live here :-)
> >I'm making the web-site about the Ural Mountains (www.welcome-ural.ru)
> >and I'd like to know
> >what you think about it?
> >You can say all what you think! If it's possible please also write to
> >[email protected]
> >I'll appreciate any critics and advise and certainly answer all
> >possible questions.
> As I have said before in this forum, I don't think much of Russia.
> A criminal country? That's not really accurate, but there is certainly
> plenty of criminal activity to go around.
> Visiting Russia is difficult, as you have to deal with the cumbersome,
> and apparently largely uneccessary visa process, which is expensive
> and time consuming. Distances are great, and outside of St Peter and
> Moscow, it is a very difficult country for independent travel.
Decent hotels at a fair price are well - nigh impossible to find. Nice
hotels of an international class are absurdly expensive, mid - price hotels
basically do not exist, and the cheaper places are ghastly Soviet - era
monstrosities that come complete with rusty water from the taps,
cockroaches, and laughably crummy 70's - era furnishings....
At least the infamous Soviet - era Rossiya in Red Square is going to be
demolished, but there is a crying need for better and more mid - priced
tourist lodgings. But since foreign tourism barely registers as a
moneymaker in Russia don't look for such places anytime soon...
> One of the things I found curious about Russia, is that there is still
> a view there that somehow the West envies aspects of the Russian way
> of life. This is of course a massive delusion, which is best
> illustrated by simply seeing how the former states of the USSR have
> chosen to look firmy west, and have nothing good to say about their
> days in Moscows orbit. I don't believe anyone from the West envies
> anything inside of Russia!
This attitude is a holdover from the propaganda of the old USSR days. One
has to feel sorry for the Russians, they don't even realise they are a
century or more behind the modern world...
> Apart from some cool architecture and museums, I cant find much to
> recommend Russia. It is of course an interesting experience, but not
> an altogether pleasant one. The atmosphere in Moscow is brittle, and
> intimidating, much of which relates to the problems in Chechnya etc.
> at the moment. Outside of the Kremlin area, there aren't a great deal
> of tourists sites either, and accomodation is expensive too. Little
> effort appears to be made in Moscow to make the place easy for
> tourists either, with every sign in Russian only, and even really
> obvious things like putting the station names up in each metro station
> seem to be completely overlooked. If there is a tourist information
> office, I couldn't find it!
Only now are the city fathers in Moscow even coming 'round to the concept of
setting up a tourist information office...read something about it in the
_Moscow Times_ a while back. In any other place it could be up and running
fairly soon, but not in Moscow! There are committees, deliberations,
etc...there is a target date for sometime in 2005 IIRC but it will probably
be delayed a few more years, who knows!?
Don't forget the positively dreadful Sheremetyevo airport in Moscow,
consistently rated one of the world's very worst international gateways, and
a real introduction to the Russian "experience". Of course Aeroflot has had
plans for years now to "improve" the place, but they remain just that -
plans. Several airlines (BA, Swiss, etc.) have in disgust moved to the much
nicer Domodedovo...
> Food is pretty rough in Moscow too. There are some reasonable
> restaurants, but they are usually expensive. Tourists often are
> charged more too, as I found out the hard way. In fact, the Russians
> seem to view all tourists as being wealthy, and fair game for being
> ripped off. There are many dubious tourist agencies, and if they rip
> you off, there is probably nothing you can do about it. An Australian
> couple I met were promised they would be picked up in Moscow, and they
> weren't. They were also to have their visas registered, and they
> weren't. Then they had their digi camera stolen from the hotel they
> were placed in. Then their 'reserved' bus seats were double booked.
> OK, so maybe they had an exceptionally bad time, but I found the same
> level of incompetence,dishonesty and rudeness pretty consistent
> throughout the place too. I had one woman refuse to get out of my
> chair on a bus, and eventually I got so irate I dragged her out by the
> hair and threw her on the floor.
*lol* You caveman, you!
;-)
In Russia, kinds words, manners and
> patience seem to be largely a waste of time.
I'd say of this of Russians *anywhere* they are in the world...a positively
miserable bunch altogether. They sure are like this in Chicago, and the
older ones have been here for decades...
> OK, good things about the place: Alcohol. Yep, it's available
> everywhere, and is cheap, and generally good quality. I found myself
> drunk much of the time, as that makes it a bit easier to get into the
> Russian way of doing things.
> Also, St Petersburg is just plain phenomenal in terms of architecture,
> and rivals anywhere else in Europe. That in itself is almost worth the
> hastle of getting visas.
> Hmmm.... can't think of much other good stuff. Perhaps I am being a
> bit unfair, but I think there are many, many other places that are far
> more rewarding to visit than Russia.
Whilst on holiday the vast majority of people want to have a pleasant time
and of course this is not possible in Russia. It's more of an endurance
test, really. Who needs it?
--
Best
Greg
Oct 26th 2004, 6:18 am
#7
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Russia and the Urals
Deep Frayed Morgues <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>. ..
> On 25 Oct 2004 08:34:30 -0700, [email protected] (Bjorn Olsson) wrote:
>
> >Deep Frayed Morgues <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>. ..
> >>
> >> I found myself drunk much of the time,
> >
> >That figures.
>
> Grind that axe, Bjorn, grind!
Stick your neck out again, and: chop!
Bjorn
> On 25 Oct 2004 08:34:30 -0700, [email protected] (Bjorn Olsson) wrote:
>
> >Deep Frayed Morgues <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>. ..
> >>
> >> I found myself drunk much of the time,
> >
> >That figures.
>
> Grind that axe, Bjorn, grind!
Stick your neck out again, and: chop!
Bjorn
Oct 26th 2004, 7:45 am
#8
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Russia and the Urals
On Tue, 26 Oct 2004 12:03:03 GMT, "Gregory Morrow"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Don't forget the positively dreadful Sheremetyevo airport in Moscow,
>consistently rated one of the world's very worst international gateways, and
>a real introduction to the Russian "experience".
OH YEEEAH!!! Did I forget to mention that? From the moment you step
off the plane, that airport truly does set the scene, doesn't it! With
all the sleaziest sounding taxi touts I had ever heard with a tone in
their voice like "well you are going to get ripped off, so it might as
well be by me", no help desk, no indications on how to find the
minibuses to the metro, and broken everything everywhere. It really is
an eyeopener.
>> OK, so maybe they had an exceptionally bad time, but I found the same
>> level of incompetence,dishonesty and rudeness pretty consistent
>> throughout the place too. I had one woman refuse to get out of my
>> chair on a bus, and eventually I got so irate I dragged her out by the
>> hair and threw her on the floor.
>*lol* You caveman, you!
>;-)
****, after 2 weeks of that bullshit, I had had enough. I could not
find a not-physical way to deal with Russians, and sadly Russian women
are all too used to being treated that way. I mean, I was waving my
tickets at her and pointing to the seat numbers, and she just kept
shaking her head, like there was nothing she could do. My female
travelling companion had started to grind her teeth, and we just
wanted to get the hell out of the country. (this bus was going to
Tallinn, and we WERE getting on it.)
>> Hmmm.... can't think of much other good stuff. Perhaps I am being a
>> bit unfair, but I think there are many, many other places that are far
>> more rewarding to visit than Russia.
>Whilst on holiday the vast majority of people want to have a pleasant time
>and of course this is not possible in Russia. It's more of an endurance
>test, really. Who needs it?
Bjorn is welcome to the place. I'd rather go to somewhere that is
difficult AND rewarding instead of just plain difficult.
---
DFM
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Don't forget the positively dreadful Sheremetyevo airport in Moscow,
>consistently rated one of the world's very worst international gateways, and
>a real introduction to the Russian "experience".
OH YEEEAH!!! Did I forget to mention that? From the moment you step
off the plane, that airport truly does set the scene, doesn't it! With
all the sleaziest sounding taxi touts I had ever heard with a tone in
their voice like "well you are going to get ripped off, so it might as
well be by me", no help desk, no indications on how to find the
minibuses to the metro, and broken everything everywhere. It really is
an eyeopener.
>> OK, so maybe they had an exceptionally bad time, but I found the same
>> level of incompetence,dishonesty and rudeness pretty consistent
>> throughout the place too. I had one woman refuse to get out of my
>> chair on a bus, and eventually I got so irate I dragged her out by the
>> hair and threw her on the floor.
>*lol* You caveman, you!
>;-)
****, after 2 weeks of that bullshit, I had had enough. I could not
find a not-physical way to deal with Russians, and sadly Russian women
are all too used to being treated that way. I mean, I was waving my
tickets at her and pointing to the seat numbers, and she just kept
shaking her head, like there was nothing she could do. My female
travelling companion had started to grind her teeth, and we just
wanted to get the hell out of the country. (this bus was going to
Tallinn, and we WERE getting on it.)
>> Hmmm.... can't think of much other good stuff. Perhaps I am being a
>> bit unfair, but I think there are many, many other places that are far
>> more rewarding to visit than Russia.
>Whilst on holiday the vast majority of people want to have a pleasant time
>and of course this is not possible in Russia. It's more of an endurance
>test, really. Who needs it?
Bjorn is welcome to the place. I'd rather go to somewhere that is
difficult AND rewarding instead of just plain difficult.
---
DFM
Oct 26th 2004, 8:17 pm
#9
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Russia and the Urals
Deep Frayed Morgues <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>. ..
> On 24 Oct 2004 01:40:29 -0700, [email protected] (Dmitrij) wrote:
> As I have said before in this forum, I don't think much of Russia.
>
> A criminal country? That's not really accurate, but there is certainly
> plenty of criminal activity to go around.
>
> Visiting Russia is difficult, as you have to deal with the cumbersome,
> and apparently largely uneccessary visa process, which is expensive
> and time consuming.
Do you know that it is easier to get through the Russian than the US
customs for Europeans?
> Distances are great, and outside of St Peter and
> Moscow, it is a very difficult country for independent travel.
If you like small distances go to Luxenbug og Lichenstein. If you
visit big countries the distances are great.
Independent travel is just difficult because you don't speak Eurasias
most widely spoken language.
> One of the things I found curious about Russia, is that there is still
> a view there that somehow the West envies aspects of the Russian way
> of life. This is of course a massive delusion, which is best
> illustrated by simply seeing how the former states of the USSR have
> chosen to look firmy west, and have nothing good to say about their
> days in Moscows orbit. I don't believe anyone from the West envies
> anything inside of Russia!
It is fair to be ignorant on this matters, but why do you choose to
proove so ignorant about something you do not know nothing about?
First, the countries you talk about was USSR republics, not states (AS
Texas is not a US republic or province, but state).
Second, the situation you describe is true for the Baltics. In many of
the other former USSR republics the situation is very different.
Belarus will probably within a few years rejoin a federation with
Russia. As you may know, there have been negiotiations over this
allready, but they have failed so far. By and large because of the
current Belarus regime and the president in head of it. Whitin a few
more years the current Bellarus regime will have to resign and this
negotions will come up once again and probably succeed. They will
probably succeed because this idea is relatively populular in both
contries. The population of Russia and many of the former USSR
Republics, formulate their enthusiasm as "that would be Soviet union
again". One should understand this as a matter of international
recognition, economic progress as a result of joining Russia and more
simplicity with regard to a single curreny, no need for visas, easier
to be an ethic Russian in the former USSR republis etc, not as a
return of the bolshevik regime.
The situation is Belarus is also true for other republics. I have
friends in Central Asia that are positive to a new Russian federation.
Ukrain is the country that beside Belarus have most in common with
Russia, and suffer a bad faith for their new regime. The Ukrain
situation is more complex than the Belarussian situation though,
because while Eastern Ukrain is a very Russian society, Ukrain
nationalism has a much stronger position in the West. In Georgia one
province, South Ossetia, struggels to be a part of Russia (as north
Ossetia is) instead of Georgia. Armenia has as far as I know a very
anti-Russian attitude.
> Apart from some cool architecture and museums, I cant find much to
> recommend Russia. It is of course an interesting experience, but not
> an altogether pleasant one. The atmosphere in Moscow is brittle, and
> intimidating, much of which relates to the problems in Chechnya etc.
> at the moment. Outside of the Kremlin area, there aren't a great deal
> of tourists sites either, and accomodation is expensive too. Little
> effort appears to be made in Moscow to make the place easy for
> tourists either, with every sign in Russian only, and even really
> obvious things like putting the station names up in each metro station
> seem to be completely overlooked. If there is a tourist information
> office, I couldn't find it!
>
It is totally idiotic of you to go to Russia without learning the
cyrrillic alphabet. What the heck were you thinking about? Your
posting demonstrates your total ignorance. There are few capitols in
the world that have more touristsights than Moscow. It is also a very
big capitol, so of course you can not just show up unprepared like
you. When it comes to being expensive, what had you expected? Like
London and Tokio (as Moscow prices often are compared to), people from
all over the country come to live in the capitol.
> Food is pretty rough in Moscow too.
You just need to stop someone on the street for a recomondation. It is
you that does not master the language...
> In Russia, kinds words, manners and
> patience seem to be largely a waste of time.
May be, but how do you know? You don't even speak the language? How
can you possibly adress anyone in a polite manner?
> OK, good things about the place: Alcohol. Yep, it's available
> everywhere, and is cheap, and generally good quality. I found myself
> drunk much of the time, as that makes it a bit easier to get into the
> Russian way of doing things.
>
> Also, St Petersburg is just plain phenomenal in terms of architecture,
> and rivals anywhere else in Europe. That in itself is almost worth the
> hastle of getting visas.
>
> Hmmm.... can't think of much other good stuff. Perhaps I am being a
> bit unfair, but I think there are many, many other places that are far
> more rewarding to visit than Russia.
You missed a lot of things. Irkutsk the lake Baikal. The Kazan
kremlin. Russias first capitol Novgorod is well worth a visit and only
a couple of hours with bus from St Petersburg. The caucasus situation
is a shame, the 4 biggest mountains in Europe, the mineral spas and
wandering the area of the first human civilization is worth a look. I
could mention a lot of others as well. The point is that it is you is
ignorant, not that the sites are not there.
Jan
> On 24 Oct 2004 01:40:29 -0700, [email protected] (Dmitrij) wrote:
> As I have said before in this forum, I don't think much of Russia.
>
> A criminal country? That's not really accurate, but there is certainly
> plenty of criminal activity to go around.
>
> Visiting Russia is difficult, as you have to deal with the cumbersome,
> and apparently largely uneccessary visa process, which is expensive
> and time consuming.
Do you know that it is easier to get through the Russian than the US
customs for Europeans?
> Distances are great, and outside of St Peter and
> Moscow, it is a very difficult country for independent travel.
If you like small distances go to Luxenbug og Lichenstein. If you
visit big countries the distances are great.
Independent travel is just difficult because you don't speak Eurasias
most widely spoken language.
> One of the things I found curious about Russia, is that there is still
> a view there that somehow the West envies aspects of the Russian way
> of life. This is of course a massive delusion, which is best
> illustrated by simply seeing how the former states of the USSR have
> chosen to look firmy west, and have nothing good to say about their
> days in Moscows orbit. I don't believe anyone from the West envies
> anything inside of Russia!
It is fair to be ignorant on this matters, but why do you choose to
proove so ignorant about something you do not know nothing about?
First, the countries you talk about was USSR republics, not states (AS
Texas is not a US republic or province, but state).
Second, the situation you describe is true for the Baltics. In many of
the other former USSR republics the situation is very different.
Belarus will probably within a few years rejoin a federation with
Russia. As you may know, there have been negiotiations over this
allready, but they have failed so far. By and large because of the
current Belarus regime and the president in head of it. Whitin a few
more years the current Bellarus regime will have to resign and this
negotions will come up once again and probably succeed. They will
probably succeed because this idea is relatively populular in both
contries. The population of Russia and many of the former USSR
Republics, formulate their enthusiasm as "that would be Soviet union
again". One should understand this as a matter of international
recognition, economic progress as a result of joining Russia and more
simplicity with regard to a single curreny, no need for visas, easier
to be an ethic Russian in the former USSR republis etc, not as a
return of the bolshevik regime.
The situation is Belarus is also true for other republics. I have
friends in Central Asia that are positive to a new Russian federation.
Ukrain is the country that beside Belarus have most in common with
Russia, and suffer a bad faith for their new regime. The Ukrain
situation is more complex than the Belarussian situation though,
because while Eastern Ukrain is a very Russian society, Ukrain
nationalism has a much stronger position in the West. In Georgia one
province, South Ossetia, struggels to be a part of Russia (as north
Ossetia is) instead of Georgia. Armenia has as far as I know a very
anti-Russian attitude.
> Apart from some cool architecture and museums, I cant find much to
> recommend Russia. It is of course an interesting experience, but not
> an altogether pleasant one. The atmosphere in Moscow is brittle, and
> intimidating, much of which relates to the problems in Chechnya etc.
> at the moment. Outside of the Kremlin area, there aren't a great deal
> of tourists sites either, and accomodation is expensive too. Little
> effort appears to be made in Moscow to make the place easy for
> tourists either, with every sign in Russian only, and even really
> obvious things like putting the station names up in each metro station
> seem to be completely overlooked. If there is a tourist information
> office, I couldn't find it!
>
It is totally idiotic of you to go to Russia without learning the
cyrrillic alphabet. What the heck were you thinking about? Your
posting demonstrates your total ignorance. There are few capitols in
the world that have more touristsights than Moscow. It is also a very
big capitol, so of course you can not just show up unprepared like
you. When it comes to being expensive, what had you expected? Like
London and Tokio (as Moscow prices often are compared to), people from
all over the country come to live in the capitol.
> Food is pretty rough in Moscow too.
You just need to stop someone on the street for a recomondation. It is
you that does not master the language...
> In Russia, kinds words, manners and
> patience seem to be largely a waste of time.
May be, but how do you know? You don't even speak the language? How
can you possibly adress anyone in a polite manner?
> OK, good things about the place: Alcohol. Yep, it's available
> everywhere, and is cheap, and generally good quality. I found myself
> drunk much of the time, as that makes it a bit easier to get into the
> Russian way of doing things.
>
> Also, St Petersburg is just plain phenomenal in terms of architecture,
> and rivals anywhere else in Europe. That in itself is almost worth the
> hastle of getting visas.
>
> Hmmm.... can't think of much other good stuff. Perhaps I am being a
> bit unfair, but I think there are many, many other places that are far
> more rewarding to visit than Russia.
You missed a lot of things. Irkutsk the lake Baikal. The Kazan
kremlin. Russias first capitol Novgorod is well worth a visit and only
a couple of hours with bus from St Petersburg. The caucasus situation
is a shame, the 4 biggest mountains in Europe, the mineral spas and
wandering the area of the first human civilization is worth a look. I
could mention a lot of others as well. The point is that it is you is
ignorant, not that the sites are not there.
Jan
Oct 27th 2004, 2:54 am
#10
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Russia and the Urals
?ystein wrote:
> Deep Frayed Morgues <[email protected]> wrote
in message news:<[email protected]>. ..
> > On 24 Oct 2004 01:40:29 -0700, [email protected] (Dmitrij) wrote:
> > As I have said before in this forum, I don't think much of Russia.
> >
> > A criminal country? That's not really accurate, but there is certainly
> > plenty of criminal activity to go around.
> >
> > Visiting Russia is difficult, as you have to deal with the cumbersome,
> > and apparently largely uneccessary visa process, which is expensive
> > and time consuming.
> Do you know that it is easier to get through the Russian than the US
> customs for Europeans?
So that is why so many Europeans early in the course of a working week are
saying to each other, "Say! I see Ryanair/EasyJet/Air Berlin has a cheapo
25 Euro/Pound r/t airfare to charming Perm! Let's hop over on Thursday for
a quick, cheap, and enjoyable holiday weekend, shall we!? Nothing like
Russia for those last - minute short hols breaks, eh?!"
> > Distances are great, and outside of St Peter and
> > Moscow, it is a very difficult country for independent travel.
> If you like small distances go to Luxenbug og Lichenstein. If you
> visit big countries the distances are great.
And in many big countries, e.g. Australia, Canada, US, Brazil, etc. are easy
to navigate because there is a decent transportation and travel
infrastructure...
> Independent travel is just difficult because you don't speak Eurasias
> most widely spoken language.
Nope. It's because Russia has a very confusing and unwieldy travel and
tourism infrastructure (in fact you can barely call something that barely
exists an "infrastructure"...) Has nothing to do with the inability or not
to speak Russian...
Anyone can pretty easily plan right on - line an independent holiday to say
Canada or Australia or the US or any number of other large and potentially
"daunting" places. You can plan and book flights, hotels, cars, train
travel, even resto meals if so inclined. There is TONS of information both
on - line and at your local bookstore, library, or tourist office of the
respective places you might be visiting. As with any long journey, there is
also a certain amount of "red tape" necessary, e.g. at least in the case of
the US visa and customs stuff to attend to, but even all that information is
pretty fairly represented at US government sites....
For Russia you simply can't do that (perhaps for a visit to Moscow or St.
Pete, but not really anyplace else). Information about internal flights,
trains, buses, driving and roads, city transport, hotels, restos, etc. is
pretty spotty at best - *lots* of research and legwork is involved if you
are really serious about doing independent travel in Russia...it's a job in
and of itself...
And then there is the red tape aspect. You see the confusion right *here*
on this group: constant questions about correct visa info and fees,
invitiations, registrations, OVIR, is this or that piece of date out - of -
date or just plain incorrect or what...plus which some here have discussed
the rip - off/corruption aspects of Russian travel, and this exists in
Russia at both the governmental and private levels (if you doubt, see how
Russia rates in the "Honesty Index" in my "Finland..." thread above)....
> > One of the things I found curious about Russia, is that there is still
> > a view there that somehow the West envies aspects of the Russian way
> > of life. This is of course a massive delusion, which is best
> > illustrated by simply seeing how the former states of the USSR have
> > chosen to look firmy west, and have nothing good to say about their
> > days in Moscows orbit. I don't believe anyone from the West envies
> > anything inside of Russia!
> It is fair to be ignorant on this matters, but why do you choose to
> proove so ignorant about something you do not know nothing about?
HUH? DFM has travelled in Russia so I expect his experiences there are no
less pertinent than yours...
> First, the countries you talk about was USSR republics, not states (AS
> Texas is not a US republic or province, but state).
> Second, the situation you describe is true for the Baltics. In many of
> the other former USSR republics the situation is very different.
> Belarus will probably within a few years rejoin a federation with
> Russia. As you may know, there have been negiotiations over this
> allready, but they have failed so far. By and large because of the
> current Belarus regime and the president in head of it. Whitin a few
> more years the current Bellarus regime will have to resign and this
> negotions will come up once again and probably succeed. They will
> probably succeed because this idea is relatively populular in both
> contries.
Now I really have to have a chuckle here. Belarus is one of the most
backward and repressive states (in fact THE most backward and repressive
state) in Europe. It's the place that most closely resembles the bad old
Stalinist USSR. Some pertinent press comments:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/co...es/1102180.stm
"In the post-war years Belarus became one of the most prosperous parts of
the USSR but with independence came economic decline. President Lukashenko,
who came to power in 1994, has steadfastly opposed the privatisation of
state enterprises. Private business is virtually non-existent. Foreign
investors stay away and even Moscow has shown signs of exasperation.
With Lukashenko at the helm, Belarus has sought closer ties with Russia. On
the political front, there has been much talk of union but little tangible
evidence of real progress, at least certainly not toward the union of equals
dreamt of by President Lukashenko.
Belarus is very heavily dependent on Russian gas to meet its energy needs.
The extent of this dependence was highlighted when the supply was cut off
briefly in early 2004 in a dispute over prices. The two sides reached
agreement some months later but the incident underlined the vulnerability of
the Belarusian economy.
Following a 1996 referendum, which gave the president greatly increased
powers at the expense of parliament, his term was extended by another two
years. He won a further five years in office in presidential elections in
September 2001 which were criticised as undemocratic by Western observers.
Official results of a further referendum in October 2004 showed support for
lifting the two-term limit on Mr Lukashenko's rule but there were widespread
allegations of fraud from western observers who said the vote was neither
free nor fair. Opposition parties failed to win a single seat in
parliamentary elections held at the same time.
The vote was followed by street protests in which demonstrators clashed with
police and there were numerous arrests.
Mr Lukashenko takes pride in his authoritarian style. He is often accused of
suppressing the opposition and media freedom but shows scant regard for
frequent criticism of his record on human rights.
Mr Lukashenko is a keen sportsman with a particular interest in ice hockey.
The Belarusian authorities been heavy criticised by human rights and media
organisations for suppressing freedom of speech, muzzling the independent
press and denying the opposition access to state-owned media.
The Committee to Protect Journalists ranked Belarus as one of the 10 "worst
places to be a journalist" in 2003..."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3665755.stm
"Belarus blasted over human rights
President Lukashenko is singled out for criticism
The Council of Europe has approved two reports strongly condemning the human
rights situation in Belarus.
The council accused several Belarus officials of direct involvement in the
disappearances of four men and called on member states to consider
sanctions.
The men who vanished were all high-profile figures, including opponents of
President Alexander Lukashenko.
The reports came shortly after a leading opposition figure was detained in
Belarus on document theft charges..."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3751762.stm
"European press review
Belarus President Alexander Lukashenko's apparent victory in a referendum on
changing the constitution to allow him to run for a third term in office in
2006 leaves several European papers distinctly unimpressed.
'A relic from a bygone era'
The Belarus electoral commission announced on Sunday that the referendum had
approved the lifting of the constitutional ban on a third consecutive third
term for President Lukashenko.
For Germany's Die Welt, the outcome was a foregone conclusion.
With the referendum, the paper says, "Alexander Lukashenko, the dictator of
Belarus, has given his wish to be elected as president for the third time in
2006 a pseudo-democratic gloss."
The result was never in doubt, the paper argues, partly because of the mass
appeal of "the ruler's primitive demagoguery".
"Others," it adds, "shy away from freely voicing their opinions because they
feel the fist of his secret service... in their necks."
The Europeans will have to continue "their patient attempts to soften the
system", it concludes.
Der Tagesspiegel does not mince its words.
"The 50-year-old head of state seems like a relic from a bygone era," it
says.
It predicts that Western observers will reject the referendum as
undemocratic, "like all ballots of the last few years".
Europe can probably only "get rid" of Mr Lukashenko "through an arrangement
which leaves Belarus in Moscow's sphere of influence", it suggests.
The French Le Monde describes Mr Lukashenko as a "cartoon populist who took
advantage of the fears that followed the collapse of the Soviet Union by
exploiting the themes of public order and security."
"His ten years in power", so far, the paper adds, "have been marked by the
muzzling of the press, the disappearance of numerous opponents and the
international isolation of Belarus."
It notes that Mr Lukashenko is the only European head of state banned from
entering the US and the EU.
"The only supporter he has left is Russia," it says."
The population of Russia and many of the former USSR
> Republics, formulate their enthusiasm as "that would be Soviet union
> again". One should understand this as a matter of international
> recognition, economic progress as a result of joining Russia and more
> simplicity with regard to a single curreny, no need for visas, easier
> to be an ethic Russian in the former USSR republis etc, not as a
> return of the bolshevik regime.
> The situation is Belarus is also true for other republics. I have
> friends in Central Asia that are positive to a new Russian federation.
> Ukrain is the country that beside Belarus have most in common with
> Russia, and suffer a bad faith for their new regime. The Ukrain
> situation is more complex than the Belarussian situation though,
> because while Eastern Ukrain is a very Russian society, Ukrain
> nationalism has a much stronger position in the West. In Georgia one
> province, South Ossetia, struggels to be a part of Russia (as north
> Ossetia is) instead of Georgia. Armenia has as far as I know a very
> anti-Russian attitude.
So basically you are saying that Belarus and Ukraine want to re - constitute
in some form a new version of the old USSR. Looks to me like those places
will fall even *further* behind than they already are, e.g. "Situation =
Hopeless"...
> > Apart from some cool architecture and museums, I cant find much to
> > recommend Russia. It is of course an interesting experience, but not
> > an altogether pleasant one. The atmosphere in Moscow is brittle, and
> > intimidating, much of which relates to the problems in Chechnya etc.
> > at the moment. Outside of the Kremlin area, there aren't a great deal
> > of tourists sites either, and accomodation is expensive too. Little
> > effort appears to be made in Moscow to make the place easy for
> > tourists either, with every sign in Russian only, and even really
> > obvious things like putting the station names up in each metro station
> > seem to be completely overlooked. If there is a tourist information
> > office, I couldn't find it!
> >
> It is totally idiotic of you to go to Russia without learning the
> cyrrillic alphabet.
Did he say this? The Cyrillic alphabet is absurdly easy to learn, one can
do it in a few hour's time (I can't speak for DFM but he doesn't seem like a
dumb guy so I bet he took this into consideration - ya think!?)
Understanding the Russian *language* is quite another matter...combine that
with poor sign postings, lack of information, surly people, etc. and things
can get fairly confusing fairly fast...
What the heck were you thinking about? Your
> posting demonstrates your total ignorance. There are few capitols in
> the world that have more touristsights than Moscow. It is also a very
> big capitol, so of course you can not just show up unprepared like
> you. When it comes to being expensive, what had you expected? Like
> London and Tokio (as Moscow prices often are compared to), people from
> all over the country come to live in the capitol.
It *is* expensive if you want a similar standard of accomodation you'd get
in Rome, Paris, NYC, etc...and not every tourist necessarily wants to stay
in a private home or a hostel either...
> > Food is pretty rough in Moscow too.
> You just need to stop someone on the street for a recomondation. It is
> you that does not master the language...
Try approaching a Russian on the street and see how you're treated...
> > In Russia, kinds words, manners and
> > patience seem to be largely a waste of time.
> May be, but how do you know? You don't even speak the language? How
> can you possibly adress anyone in a polite manner?
Language skills are not always necessary for polite interactions, e.g.
smiles, gestures, etc. will often more than suffice, myself and others here
have done it many times in many places (in fact I had an East German
boyfriend at one time, the language barrier was NOT a problem, and I mean
for things in daily life like making plans, keeping appointments, etc...plus
which there is always pen and paper and a dictionary to help out in a pinch
;-) . The Russians simply haven't mastered this concept yet, I guess...at
least the many I've met sure haven't.
> > OK, good things about the place: Alcohol. Yep, it's available
> > everywhere, and is cheap, and generally good quality. I found myself
> > drunk much of the time, as that makes it a bit easier to get into the
> > Russian way of doing things.
> >
> > Also, St Petersburg is just plain phenomenal in terms of architecture,
> > and rivals anywhere else in Europe. That in itself is almost worth the
> > hastle of getting visas.
> >
> > Hmmm.... can't think of much other good stuff. Perhaps I am being a
> > bit unfair, but I think there are many, many other places that are far
> > more rewarding to visit than Russia.
> You missed a lot of things. Irkutsk the lake Baikal. The Kazan
> kremlin. Russias first capitol Novgorod is well worth a visit and only
> a couple of hours with bus from St Petersburg. The caucasus situation
> is a shame, the 4 biggest mountains in Europe, the mineral spas and
> wandering the area of the first human civilization is worth a look. I
> could mention a lot of others as well. The point is that it is you is
> ignorant, not that the sites are not there.
The sites are fairly difficult and cumbersome to reach...because the
Russians have a very poor travel infrastructure :-)
Jan methinks you can be a real glutton for punishment at times ;---)
--
Best
Greg
> Deep Frayed Morgues <[email protected]> wrote
in message news:<[email protected]>. ..
> > On 24 Oct 2004 01:40:29 -0700, [email protected] (Dmitrij) wrote:
> > As I have said before in this forum, I don't think much of Russia.
> >
> > A criminal country? That's not really accurate, but there is certainly
> > plenty of criminal activity to go around.
> >
> > Visiting Russia is difficult, as you have to deal with the cumbersome,
> > and apparently largely uneccessary visa process, which is expensive
> > and time consuming.
> Do you know that it is easier to get through the Russian than the US
> customs for Europeans?
So that is why so many Europeans early in the course of a working week are
saying to each other, "Say! I see Ryanair/EasyJet/Air Berlin has a cheapo
25 Euro/Pound r/t airfare to charming Perm! Let's hop over on Thursday for
a quick, cheap, and enjoyable holiday weekend, shall we!? Nothing like
Russia for those last - minute short hols breaks, eh?!"
> > Distances are great, and outside of St Peter and
> > Moscow, it is a very difficult country for independent travel.
> If you like small distances go to Luxenbug og Lichenstein. If you
> visit big countries the distances are great.
And in many big countries, e.g. Australia, Canada, US, Brazil, etc. are easy
to navigate because there is a decent transportation and travel
infrastructure...
> Independent travel is just difficult because you don't speak Eurasias
> most widely spoken language.
Nope. It's because Russia has a very confusing and unwieldy travel and
tourism infrastructure (in fact you can barely call something that barely
exists an "infrastructure"...) Has nothing to do with the inability or not
to speak Russian...
Anyone can pretty easily plan right on - line an independent holiday to say
Canada or Australia or the US or any number of other large and potentially
"daunting" places. You can plan and book flights, hotels, cars, train
travel, even resto meals if so inclined. There is TONS of information both
on - line and at your local bookstore, library, or tourist office of the
respective places you might be visiting. As with any long journey, there is
also a certain amount of "red tape" necessary, e.g. at least in the case of
the US visa and customs stuff to attend to, but even all that information is
pretty fairly represented at US government sites....
For Russia you simply can't do that (perhaps for a visit to Moscow or St.
Pete, but not really anyplace else). Information about internal flights,
trains, buses, driving and roads, city transport, hotels, restos, etc. is
pretty spotty at best - *lots* of research and legwork is involved if you
are really serious about doing independent travel in Russia...it's a job in
and of itself...
And then there is the red tape aspect. You see the confusion right *here*
on this group: constant questions about correct visa info and fees,
invitiations, registrations, OVIR, is this or that piece of date out - of -
date or just plain incorrect or what...plus which some here have discussed
the rip - off/corruption aspects of Russian travel, and this exists in
Russia at both the governmental and private levels (if you doubt, see how
Russia rates in the "Honesty Index" in my "Finland..." thread above)....
> > One of the things I found curious about Russia, is that there is still
> > a view there that somehow the West envies aspects of the Russian way
> > of life. This is of course a massive delusion, which is best
> > illustrated by simply seeing how the former states of the USSR have
> > chosen to look firmy west, and have nothing good to say about their
> > days in Moscows orbit. I don't believe anyone from the West envies
> > anything inside of Russia!
> It is fair to be ignorant on this matters, but why do you choose to
> proove so ignorant about something you do not know nothing about?
HUH? DFM has travelled in Russia so I expect his experiences there are no
less pertinent than yours...
> First, the countries you talk about was USSR republics, not states (AS
> Texas is not a US republic or province, but state).
> Second, the situation you describe is true for the Baltics. In many of
> the other former USSR republics the situation is very different.
> Belarus will probably within a few years rejoin a federation with
> Russia. As you may know, there have been negiotiations over this
> allready, but they have failed so far. By and large because of the
> current Belarus regime and the president in head of it. Whitin a few
> more years the current Bellarus regime will have to resign and this
> negotions will come up once again and probably succeed. They will
> probably succeed because this idea is relatively populular in both
> contries.
Now I really have to have a chuckle here. Belarus is one of the most
backward and repressive states (in fact THE most backward and repressive
state) in Europe. It's the place that most closely resembles the bad old
Stalinist USSR. Some pertinent press comments:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/co...es/1102180.stm
"In the post-war years Belarus became one of the most prosperous parts of
the USSR but with independence came economic decline. President Lukashenko,
who came to power in 1994, has steadfastly opposed the privatisation of
state enterprises. Private business is virtually non-existent. Foreign
investors stay away and even Moscow has shown signs of exasperation.
With Lukashenko at the helm, Belarus has sought closer ties with Russia. On
the political front, there has been much talk of union but little tangible
evidence of real progress, at least certainly not toward the union of equals
dreamt of by President Lukashenko.
Belarus is very heavily dependent on Russian gas to meet its energy needs.
The extent of this dependence was highlighted when the supply was cut off
briefly in early 2004 in a dispute over prices. The two sides reached
agreement some months later but the incident underlined the vulnerability of
the Belarusian economy.
Following a 1996 referendum, which gave the president greatly increased
powers at the expense of parliament, his term was extended by another two
years. He won a further five years in office in presidential elections in
September 2001 which were criticised as undemocratic by Western observers.
Official results of a further referendum in October 2004 showed support for
lifting the two-term limit on Mr Lukashenko's rule but there were widespread
allegations of fraud from western observers who said the vote was neither
free nor fair. Opposition parties failed to win a single seat in
parliamentary elections held at the same time.
The vote was followed by street protests in which demonstrators clashed with
police and there were numerous arrests.
Mr Lukashenko takes pride in his authoritarian style. He is often accused of
suppressing the opposition and media freedom but shows scant regard for
frequent criticism of his record on human rights.
Mr Lukashenko is a keen sportsman with a particular interest in ice hockey.
The Belarusian authorities been heavy criticised by human rights and media
organisations for suppressing freedom of speech, muzzling the independent
press and denying the opposition access to state-owned media.
The Committee to Protect Journalists ranked Belarus as one of the 10 "worst
places to be a journalist" in 2003..."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3665755.stm
"Belarus blasted over human rights
President Lukashenko is singled out for criticism
The Council of Europe has approved two reports strongly condemning the human
rights situation in Belarus.
The council accused several Belarus officials of direct involvement in the
disappearances of four men and called on member states to consider
sanctions.
The men who vanished were all high-profile figures, including opponents of
President Alexander Lukashenko.
The reports came shortly after a leading opposition figure was detained in
Belarus on document theft charges..."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3751762.stm
"European press review
Belarus President Alexander Lukashenko's apparent victory in a referendum on
changing the constitution to allow him to run for a third term in office in
2006 leaves several European papers distinctly unimpressed.
'A relic from a bygone era'
The Belarus electoral commission announced on Sunday that the referendum had
approved the lifting of the constitutional ban on a third consecutive third
term for President Lukashenko.
For Germany's Die Welt, the outcome was a foregone conclusion.
With the referendum, the paper says, "Alexander Lukashenko, the dictator of
Belarus, has given his wish to be elected as president for the third time in
2006 a pseudo-democratic gloss."
The result was never in doubt, the paper argues, partly because of the mass
appeal of "the ruler's primitive demagoguery".
"Others," it adds, "shy away from freely voicing their opinions because they
feel the fist of his secret service... in their necks."
The Europeans will have to continue "their patient attempts to soften the
system", it concludes.
Der Tagesspiegel does not mince its words.
"The 50-year-old head of state seems like a relic from a bygone era," it
says.
It predicts that Western observers will reject the referendum as
undemocratic, "like all ballots of the last few years".
Europe can probably only "get rid" of Mr Lukashenko "through an arrangement
which leaves Belarus in Moscow's sphere of influence", it suggests.
The French Le Monde describes Mr Lukashenko as a "cartoon populist who took
advantage of the fears that followed the collapse of the Soviet Union by
exploiting the themes of public order and security."
"His ten years in power", so far, the paper adds, "have been marked by the
muzzling of the press, the disappearance of numerous opponents and the
international isolation of Belarus."
It notes that Mr Lukashenko is the only European head of state banned from
entering the US and the EU.
"The only supporter he has left is Russia," it says."
The population of Russia and many of the former USSR
> Republics, formulate their enthusiasm as "that would be Soviet union
> again". One should understand this as a matter of international
> recognition, economic progress as a result of joining Russia and more
> simplicity with regard to a single curreny, no need for visas, easier
> to be an ethic Russian in the former USSR republis etc, not as a
> return of the bolshevik regime.
> The situation is Belarus is also true for other republics. I have
> friends in Central Asia that are positive to a new Russian federation.
> Ukrain is the country that beside Belarus have most in common with
> Russia, and suffer a bad faith for their new regime. The Ukrain
> situation is more complex than the Belarussian situation though,
> because while Eastern Ukrain is a very Russian society, Ukrain
> nationalism has a much stronger position in the West. In Georgia one
> province, South Ossetia, struggels to be a part of Russia (as north
> Ossetia is) instead of Georgia. Armenia has as far as I know a very
> anti-Russian attitude.
So basically you are saying that Belarus and Ukraine want to re - constitute
in some form a new version of the old USSR. Looks to me like those places
will fall even *further* behind than they already are, e.g. "Situation =
Hopeless"...
> > Apart from some cool architecture and museums, I cant find much to
> > recommend Russia. It is of course an interesting experience, but not
> > an altogether pleasant one. The atmosphere in Moscow is brittle, and
> > intimidating, much of which relates to the problems in Chechnya etc.
> > at the moment. Outside of the Kremlin area, there aren't a great deal
> > of tourists sites either, and accomodation is expensive too. Little
> > effort appears to be made in Moscow to make the place easy for
> > tourists either, with every sign in Russian only, and even really
> > obvious things like putting the station names up in each metro station
> > seem to be completely overlooked. If there is a tourist information
> > office, I couldn't find it!
> >
> It is totally idiotic of you to go to Russia without learning the
> cyrrillic alphabet.
Did he say this? The Cyrillic alphabet is absurdly easy to learn, one can
do it in a few hour's time (I can't speak for DFM but he doesn't seem like a
dumb guy so I bet he took this into consideration - ya think!?)
Understanding the Russian *language* is quite another matter...combine that
with poor sign postings, lack of information, surly people, etc. and things
can get fairly confusing fairly fast...
What the heck were you thinking about? Your
> posting demonstrates your total ignorance. There are few capitols in
> the world that have more touristsights than Moscow. It is also a very
> big capitol, so of course you can not just show up unprepared like
> you. When it comes to being expensive, what had you expected? Like
> London and Tokio (as Moscow prices often are compared to), people from
> all over the country come to live in the capitol.
It *is* expensive if you want a similar standard of accomodation you'd get
in Rome, Paris, NYC, etc...and not every tourist necessarily wants to stay
in a private home or a hostel either...
> > Food is pretty rough in Moscow too.
> You just need to stop someone on the street for a recomondation. It is
> you that does not master the language...
Try approaching a Russian on the street and see how you're treated...
> > In Russia, kinds words, manners and
> > patience seem to be largely a waste of time.
> May be, but how do you know? You don't even speak the language? How
> can you possibly adress anyone in a polite manner?
Language skills are not always necessary for polite interactions, e.g.
smiles, gestures, etc. will often more than suffice, myself and others here
have done it many times in many places (in fact I had an East German
boyfriend at one time, the language barrier was NOT a problem, and I mean
for things in daily life like making plans, keeping appointments, etc...plus
which there is always pen and paper and a dictionary to help out in a pinch
;-) . The Russians simply haven't mastered this concept yet, I guess...at
least the many I've met sure haven't.
> > OK, good things about the place: Alcohol. Yep, it's available
> > everywhere, and is cheap, and generally good quality. I found myself
> > drunk much of the time, as that makes it a bit easier to get into the
> > Russian way of doing things.
> >
> > Also, St Petersburg is just plain phenomenal in terms of architecture,
> > and rivals anywhere else in Europe. That in itself is almost worth the
> > hastle of getting visas.
> >
> > Hmmm.... can't think of much other good stuff. Perhaps I am being a
> > bit unfair, but I think there are many, many other places that are far
> > more rewarding to visit than Russia.
> You missed a lot of things. Irkutsk the lake Baikal. The Kazan
> kremlin. Russias first capitol Novgorod is well worth a visit and only
> a couple of hours with bus from St Petersburg. The caucasus situation
> is a shame, the 4 biggest mountains in Europe, the mineral spas and
> wandering the area of the first human civilization is worth a look. I
> could mention a lot of others as well. The point is that it is you is
> ignorant, not that the sites are not there.
The sites are fairly difficult and cumbersome to reach...because the
Russians have a very poor travel infrastructure :-)
Jan methinks you can be a real glutton for punishment at times ;---)
--
Best
Greg
Oct 27th 2004, 5:43 am
#11
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Russia and the Urals
Cripes, did I hit a nerve here!!!
On 27 Oct 2004 01:17:59 -0700, [email protected] (?ystein)
wrote:
>Deep Frayed Morgues <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>. ..
>> On 24 Oct 2004 01:40:29 -0700, [email protected] (Dmitrij) wrote:
>> As I have said before in this forum, I don't think much of Russia.
>>
>> A criminal country? That's not really accurate, but there is certainly
>> plenty of criminal activity to go around.
>>
>> Visiting Russia is difficult, as you have to deal with the cumbersome,
>> and apparently largely uneccessary visa process, which is expensive
>> and time consuming.
>Do you know that it is easier to get through the Russian than the US
>customs for Europeans?
I haven't been to the US for a few years, and aren't planning too.
What you say does surprise me though.
>> Distances are great, and outside of St Peter and
>> Moscow, it is a very difficult country for independent travel.
>If you like small distances go to Luxenbug og Lichenstein. If you
>visit big countries the distances are great.
>Independent travel is just difficult because you don't speak Eurasias
>most widely spoken language.
Ahem. I speak enough Russian to travel independently in Russia. I
found Russian relatively easy to learn, and got by with it without any
great problems. More on this later.
>> One of the things I found curious about Russia, is that there is still
>> a view there that somehow the West envies aspects of the Russian way
>> of life. This is of course a massive delusion, which is best
>> illustrated by simply seeing how the former states of the USSR have
>> chosen to look firmy west, and have nothing good to say about their
>> days in Moscows orbit. I don't believe anyone from the West envies
>> anything inside of Russia!
>It is fair to be ignorant on this matters, but why do you choose to
>proove so ignorant about something you do not know nothing about?
>First, the countries you talk about was USSR republics, not states (AS
>Texas is not a US republic or province, but state).
State, republic. OK, so MAYBE I used the wrong word when (as a recent
thread demonstrated) it is debateable at best.
>Second, the situation you describe is true for the Baltics. In many of
>the other former USSR republics the situation is very different.
>Belarus will probably within a few years rejoin a federation with
>Russia. As you may know, there have been negiotiations over this
>allready, but they have failed so far. By and large because of the
>current Belarus regime and the president in head of it. Whitin a few
>more years the current Bellarus regime will have to resign and this
>negotions will come up once again and probably succeed. They will
>probably succeed because this idea is relatively populular in both
>contries. The population of Russia and many of the former USSR
>Republics, formulate their enthusiasm as "that would be Soviet union
>again". One should understand this as a matter of international
>recognition, economic progress as a result of joining Russia and more
>simplicity with regard to a single curreny, no need for visas, easier
>to be an ethic Russian in the former USSR republis etc, not as a
>return of the bolshevik regime.
>The situation is Belarus is also true for other republics. I have
>friends in Central Asia that are positive to a new Russian federation.
>Ukrain is the country that beside Belarus have most in common with
>Russia, and suffer a bad faith for their new regime. The Ukrain
>situation is more complex than the Belarussian situation though,
>because while Eastern Ukrain is a very Russian society, Ukrain
>nationalism has a much stronger position in the West. In Georgia one
>province, South Ossetia, struggels to be a part of Russia (as north
>Ossetia is) instead of Georgia. Armenia has as far as I know a very
>anti-Russian attitude.
WHOAH!!! WHOAH!! WHOAH!!!! RE-READ WHAT I WROTE!!!
I said "I don't believe anyone from the West envies anything inside of
Russia!"
Belarus and Central Asian countries are definitely not what I would
call "West", would you?
>> Apart from some cool architecture and museums, I cant find much to
>> recommend Russia. It is of course an interesting experience, but not
>> an altogether pleasant one. The atmosphere in Moscow is brittle, and
>> intimidating, much of which relates to the problems in Chechnya etc.
>> at the moment. Outside of the Kremlin area, there aren't a great deal
>> of tourists sites either, and accomodation is expensive too. Little
>> effort appears to be made in Moscow to make the place easy for
>> tourists either, with every sign in Russian only, and even really
>> obvious things like putting the station names up in each metro station
>> seem to be completely overlooked. If there is a tourist information
>> office, I couldn't find it!
>>
>It is totally idiotic of you to go to Russia without learning the
>cyrrillic alphabet. What the heck were you thinking about? Your
>posting demonstrates your total ignorance.
Oh for crying out loud! I DO KNOW THE CYRILLIC ALPHABET!!! Test me if
you want!!! In fact I have helped people out in this exact forum on
learning it on occasions! What on earth made you think I dont????
Please tell me, I want to know!!
>There are few capitols in
>the world that have more touristsights than Moscow. It is also a very
>big capitol, so of course you can not just show up unprepared like
>you. When it comes to being expensive, what had you expected? Like
>London and Tokio (as Moscow prices often are compared to), people from
>all over the country come to live in the capitol.
I was prepared. I organised all my accomodation beforehand, and learnt
the basics of the language. I am without doubt very well travelled,
and have been to plenty of difficult countries before, many of which I
would be glad to recommend (Russia aint one of them). I had plenty of
money, and all my paperwork was complete (if unbeknownst to me,
wrong). As far as costs go, you get much better value in London of
Tokyo!
>> Food is pretty rough in Moscow too.
>You just need to stop someone on the street for a recomondation. It is
>you that does not master the language...
For a two week stay in a country, who the hell is going to learn
phrases like "Could you please recommend a good restaurant?". That's
where guide books come in.
>> In Russia, kinds words, manners and
>> patience seem to be largely a waste of time.
>May be, but how do you know? You don't even speak the language? How
>can you possibly adress anyone in a polite manner?
PPPPLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAASSSSEEEEE tell me where I
indicated I don't speak the language!!!!
>> OK, good things about the place: Alcohol. Yep, it's available
>> everywhere, and is cheap, and generally good quality. I found myself
>> drunk much of the time, as that makes it a bit easier to get into the
>> Russian way of doing things.
>>
>> Also, St Petersburg is just plain phenomenal in terms of architecture,
>> and rivals anywhere else in Europe. That in itself is almost worth the
>> hastle of getting visas.
>>
>> Hmmm.... can't think of much other good stuff. Perhaps I am being a
>> bit unfair, but I think there are many, many other places that are far
>> more rewarding to visit than Russia.
>You missed a lot of things. Irkutsk the lake Baikal. The Kazan
>kremlin. Russias first capitol Novgorod is well worth a visit and only
>a couple of hours with bus from St Petersburg. The caucasus situation
>is a shame, the 4 biggest mountains in Europe, the mineral spas and
>wandering the area of the first human civilization is worth a look. I
>could mention a lot of others as well. The point is that it is you is
>ignorant, not that the sites are not there.
Ignorant? Bloody hell, where do you get off saying that???
I missed a lot of things mainly due to the **** ups in registering my
visa, and the subsequent time it took to sort the mess out. I was
advised not to move on until it was registered. I would LOVE to go to
the Caucasus region, and it is high on my list, but the Russian part
is far to unstable, and extremely difficult to get to at the moment.
Now tell me, were you upset about something else when you wrote all of
the above?
---
DFM
On 27 Oct 2004 01:17:59 -0700, [email protected] (?ystein)
wrote:
>Deep Frayed Morgues <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>. ..
>> On 24 Oct 2004 01:40:29 -0700, [email protected] (Dmitrij) wrote:
>> As I have said before in this forum, I don't think much of Russia.
>>
>> A criminal country? That's not really accurate, but there is certainly
>> plenty of criminal activity to go around.
>>
>> Visiting Russia is difficult, as you have to deal with the cumbersome,
>> and apparently largely uneccessary visa process, which is expensive
>> and time consuming.
>Do you know that it is easier to get through the Russian than the US
>customs for Europeans?
I haven't been to the US for a few years, and aren't planning too.
What you say does surprise me though.
>> Distances are great, and outside of St Peter and
>> Moscow, it is a very difficult country for independent travel.
>If you like small distances go to Luxenbug og Lichenstein. If you
>visit big countries the distances are great.
>Independent travel is just difficult because you don't speak Eurasias
>most widely spoken language.
Ahem. I speak enough Russian to travel independently in Russia. I
found Russian relatively easy to learn, and got by with it without any
great problems. More on this later.
>> One of the things I found curious about Russia, is that there is still
>> a view there that somehow the West envies aspects of the Russian way
>> of life. This is of course a massive delusion, which is best
>> illustrated by simply seeing how the former states of the USSR have
>> chosen to look firmy west, and have nothing good to say about their
>> days in Moscows orbit. I don't believe anyone from the West envies
>> anything inside of Russia!
>It is fair to be ignorant on this matters, but why do you choose to
>proove so ignorant about something you do not know nothing about?
>First, the countries you talk about was USSR republics, not states (AS
>Texas is not a US republic or province, but state).
State, republic. OK, so MAYBE I used the wrong word when (as a recent
thread demonstrated) it is debateable at best.
>Second, the situation you describe is true for the Baltics. In many of
>the other former USSR republics the situation is very different.
>Belarus will probably within a few years rejoin a federation with
>Russia. As you may know, there have been negiotiations over this
>allready, but they have failed so far. By and large because of the
>current Belarus regime and the president in head of it. Whitin a few
>more years the current Bellarus regime will have to resign and this
>negotions will come up once again and probably succeed. They will
>probably succeed because this idea is relatively populular in both
>contries. The population of Russia and many of the former USSR
>Republics, formulate their enthusiasm as "that would be Soviet union
>again". One should understand this as a matter of international
>recognition, economic progress as a result of joining Russia and more
>simplicity with regard to a single curreny, no need for visas, easier
>to be an ethic Russian in the former USSR republis etc, not as a
>return of the bolshevik regime.
>The situation is Belarus is also true for other republics. I have
>friends in Central Asia that are positive to a new Russian federation.
>Ukrain is the country that beside Belarus have most in common with
>Russia, and suffer a bad faith for their new regime. The Ukrain
>situation is more complex than the Belarussian situation though,
>because while Eastern Ukrain is a very Russian society, Ukrain
>nationalism has a much stronger position in the West. In Georgia one
>province, South Ossetia, struggels to be a part of Russia (as north
>Ossetia is) instead of Georgia. Armenia has as far as I know a very
>anti-Russian attitude.
WHOAH!!! WHOAH!! WHOAH!!!! RE-READ WHAT I WROTE!!!
I said "I don't believe anyone from the West envies anything inside of
Russia!"
Belarus and Central Asian countries are definitely not what I would
call "West", would you?
>> Apart from some cool architecture and museums, I cant find much to
>> recommend Russia. It is of course an interesting experience, but not
>> an altogether pleasant one. The atmosphere in Moscow is brittle, and
>> intimidating, much of which relates to the problems in Chechnya etc.
>> at the moment. Outside of the Kremlin area, there aren't a great deal
>> of tourists sites either, and accomodation is expensive too. Little
>> effort appears to be made in Moscow to make the place easy for
>> tourists either, with every sign in Russian only, and even really
>> obvious things like putting the station names up in each metro station
>> seem to be completely overlooked. If there is a tourist information
>> office, I couldn't find it!
>>
>It is totally idiotic of you to go to Russia without learning the
>cyrrillic alphabet. What the heck were you thinking about? Your
>posting demonstrates your total ignorance.
Oh for crying out loud! I DO KNOW THE CYRILLIC ALPHABET!!! Test me if
you want!!! In fact I have helped people out in this exact forum on
learning it on occasions! What on earth made you think I dont????
Please tell me, I want to know!!
>There are few capitols in
>the world that have more touristsights than Moscow. It is also a very
>big capitol, so of course you can not just show up unprepared like
>you. When it comes to being expensive, what had you expected? Like
>London and Tokio (as Moscow prices often are compared to), people from
>all over the country come to live in the capitol.
I was prepared. I organised all my accomodation beforehand, and learnt
the basics of the language. I am without doubt very well travelled,
and have been to plenty of difficult countries before, many of which I
would be glad to recommend (Russia aint one of them). I had plenty of
money, and all my paperwork was complete (if unbeknownst to me,
wrong). As far as costs go, you get much better value in London of
Tokyo!
>> Food is pretty rough in Moscow too.
>You just need to stop someone on the street for a recomondation. It is
>you that does not master the language...
For a two week stay in a country, who the hell is going to learn
phrases like "Could you please recommend a good restaurant?". That's
where guide books come in.
>> In Russia, kinds words, manners and
>> patience seem to be largely a waste of time.
>May be, but how do you know? You don't even speak the language? How
>can you possibly adress anyone in a polite manner?
PPPPLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAASSSSEEEEE tell me where I
indicated I don't speak the language!!!!
>> OK, good things about the place: Alcohol. Yep, it's available
>> everywhere, and is cheap, and generally good quality. I found myself
>> drunk much of the time, as that makes it a bit easier to get into the
>> Russian way of doing things.
>>
>> Also, St Petersburg is just plain phenomenal in terms of architecture,
>> and rivals anywhere else in Europe. That in itself is almost worth the
>> hastle of getting visas.
>>
>> Hmmm.... can't think of much other good stuff. Perhaps I am being a
>> bit unfair, but I think there are many, many other places that are far
>> more rewarding to visit than Russia.
>You missed a lot of things. Irkutsk the lake Baikal. The Kazan
>kremlin. Russias first capitol Novgorod is well worth a visit and only
>a couple of hours with bus from St Petersburg. The caucasus situation
>is a shame, the 4 biggest mountains in Europe, the mineral spas and
>wandering the area of the first human civilization is worth a look. I
>could mention a lot of others as well. The point is that it is you is
>ignorant, not that the sites are not there.
Ignorant? Bloody hell, where do you get off saying that???
I missed a lot of things mainly due to the **** ups in registering my
visa, and the subsequent time it took to sort the mess out. I was
advised not to move on until it was registered. I would LOVE to go to
the Caucasus region, and it is high on my list, but the Russian part
is far to unstable, and extremely difficult to get to at the moment.
Now tell me, were you upset about something else when you wrote all of
the above?
---
DFM
Oct 27th 2004, 8:25 am
#12
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Russia and the Urals
On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 17:43:55 GMT, Deep Frayed Morgues
<deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu> wrote:
>Cripes, did I hit a nerve here!!!
Score 10 points :-)
--
Martin
<deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu> wrote:
>Cripes, did I hit a nerve here!!!
Score 10 points :-)
--
Martin
Oct 27th 2004, 8:52 am
#13
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Russia and the Urals
"Gregory Morrow" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected] hlink.net>...
> Try approaching a Russian on the street and see how you're treated...
Eh? As far as I remember I have been treated perfectly fine in about
99% of the three-million-or-so cases when I've done this. (Special
thanks go to the very helpful gentleman we met this summer, who took
15 minutes of his time to show us the way to a building-material shop
that we couldn't find, even though he was late for work and it was not
in his direction).
Also, since I am not easily identified as non-Russian by the way I
look, people assume that I am Russian and often approach me with
questions about directions, asking what the time is, asking if I have
a light, old ladies asking if I can help them lift their bag onto the
tram, etc, etc. Although my Russian is not very fluent yet, I
understand sufficiently much of what they say to able to tell that the
interaction is normally (on average) as polite as you would expect
anywhere else. And this is something you wouldn't notice if you don't
know the language, because a lot of the small cues like facial
expressions and tone of voice are different, and misleading if you are
unaware of the differences.
In any case, thank you, Gregory, for your opinions and for sharing
your experiences. I hope that you will decide, at some point, to spend
a little effort trying to learn more about Russian culture and the
Russian language. I think a lot of the misunderstandings and bad
impressions that you currently have would be replaced by pleasant
surprises.
Of course, it's up to you. If you so prefer, you can of course
continue sitting there with your grudges and surly attitude, and
waste even more of your time on spewing negativity over usenet.
Perhaps you need that outlet. Pity, in that case.
Bjorn
> Try approaching a Russian on the street and see how you're treated...
Eh? As far as I remember I have been treated perfectly fine in about
99% of the three-million-or-so cases when I've done this. (Special
thanks go to the very helpful gentleman we met this summer, who took
15 minutes of his time to show us the way to a building-material shop
that we couldn't find, even though he was late for work and it was not
in his direction).
Also, since I am not easily identified as non-Russian by the way I
look, people assume that I am Russian and often approach me with
questions about directions, asking what the time is, asking if I have
a light, old ladies asking if I can help them lift their bag onto the
tram, etc, etc. Although my Russian is not very fluent yet, I
understand sufficiently much of what they say to able to tell that the
interaction is normally (on average) as polite as you would expect
anywhere else. And this is something you wouldn't notice if you don't
know the language, because a lot of the small cues like facial
expressions and tone of voice are different, and misleading if you are
unaware of the differences.
In any case, thank you, Gregory, for your opinions and for sharing
your experiences. I hope that you will decide, at some point, to spend
a little effort trying to learn more about Russian culture and the
Russian language. I think a lot of the misunderstandings and bad
impressions that you currently have would be replaced by pleasant
surprises.
Of course, it's up to you. If you so prefer, you can of course
continue sitting there with your grudges and surly attitude, and
waste even more of your time on spewing negativity over usenet.
Perhaps you need that outlet. Pity, in that case.
Bjorn
Oct 27th 2004, 10:03 am
#14
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Russia and the Urals
Bjorn Olsson wrote:
> "Gregory Morrow" <[email protected]> wrote in
message news:<[email protected] hlink.net>...
> > Try approaching a Russian on the street and see how you're treated...
> Eh? As far as I remember I have been treated perfectly fine in about
> 99% of the three-million-or-so cases when I've done this. (Special
> thanks go to the very helpful gentleman we met this summer, who took
> 15 minutes of his time to show us the way to a building-material shop
> that we couldn't find, even though he was late for work and it was not
> in his direction).
> Also, since I am not easily identified as non-Russian by the way I
> look, people assume that I am Russian and often approach me with
> questions about directions, asking what the time is, asking if I have
> a light, old ladies asking if I can help them lift their bag onto the
> tram, etc, etc. Although my Russian is not very fluent yet, I
> understand sufficiently much of what they say to able to tell that the
> interaction is normally (on average) as polite as you would expect
> anywhere else. And this is something you wouldn't notice if you don't
> know the language, because a lot of the small cues like facial
> expressions and tone of voice are different, and misleading if you are
> unaware of the differences.
Well IME they are just plain rude. I've scores of examples, but I won't
bore any of y'all here with them...
> In any case, thank you, Gregory, for your opinions and for sharing
> your experiences. I hope that you will decide, at some point, to spend
> a little effort trying to learn more about Russian culture and the
> Russian language. I think a lot of the misunderstandings and bad
> impressions that you currently have would be replaced by pleasant
> surprises.
Oh, I know plenty about Russia - in University I designed my own Russian
studies minor, taking graduate - level Russian history, political, and
geography courses, and even a year of Russian language (which I did pretty
badly at)..I was always interested in Russia from when I was a little kid.
In fourth grade elementary school (1964) I collected Russian stamps,
airplane models, even took a copy of the Soviet propaganda magazine _Soviet
Life_ (published here in the States during the Cold War days in a
reciprocal agreement with the Soviet agreement) to school for "show and
tell", it had a pic red picture of Lenin on the front and my teacher was a
bit shocked, e.g. "WHERE did you get that!?" ;-)
It's when I started to meet a large number of Russians when I realized
something: that they are a fairly nasty, surly bunch. Not really people I
want to hang out with, they act like manic - depressives, are only "happy"
when they are dead drunk...
All that time and effort wasted! Should have studied Italian culture I
guess, perhaps I would have been happier, eh? <g>
> Of course, it's up to you. If you so prefer, you can of course
> continue sitting there with your grudges and surly attitude, and
> waste even more of your time on spewing negativity over usenet.
> Perhaps you need that outlet. Pity, in that case.
Oh I've found that a number of people on Usenet concur with some of my views
about the subject at hand, Bjorn :-)
--
Best
Greg
> "Gregory Morrow" <[email protected]> wrote in
message news:<[email protected] hlink.net>...
> > Try approaching a Russian on the street and see how you're treated...
> Eh? As far as I remember I have been treated perfectly fine in about
> 99% of the three-million-or-so cases when I've done this. (Special
> thanks go to the very helpful gentleman we met this summer, who took
> 15 minutes of his time to show us the way to a building-material shop
> that we couldn't find, even though he was late for work and it was not
> in his direction).
> Also, since I am not easily identified as non-Russian by the way I
> look, people assume that I am Russian and often approach me with
> questions about directions, asking what the time is, asking if I have
> a light, old ladies asking if I can help them lift their bag onto the
> tram, etc, etc. Although my Russian is not very fluent yet, I
> understand sufficiently much of what they say to able to tell that the
> interaction is normally (on average) as polite as you would expect
> anywhere else. And this is something you wouldn't notice if you don't
> know the language, because a lot of the small cues like facial
> expressions and tone of voice are different, and misleading if you are
> unaware of the differences.
Well IME they are just plain rude. I've scores of examples, but I won't
bore any of y'all here with them...
> In any case, thank you, Gregory, for your opinions and for sharing
> your experiences. I hope that you will decide, at some point, to spend
> a little effort trying to learn more about Russian culture and the
> Russian language. I think a lot of the misunderstandings and bad
> impressions that you currently have would be replaced by pleasant
> surprises.
Oh, I know plenty about Russia - in University I designed my own Russian
studies minor, taking graduate - level Russian history, political, and
geography courses, and even a year of Russian language (which I did pretty
badly at)..I was always interested in Russia from when I was a little kid.
In fourth grade elementary school (1964) I collected Russian stamps,
airplane models, even took a copy of the Soviet propaganda magazine _Soviet
Life_ (published here in the States during the Cold War days in a
reciprocal agreement with the Soviet agreement) to school for "show and
tell", it had a pic red picture of Lenin on the front and my teacher was a
bit shocked, e.g. "WHERE did you get that!?" ;-)
It's when I started to meet a large number of Russians when I realized
something: that they are a fairly nasty, surly bunch. Not really people I
want to hang out with, they act like manic - depressives, are only "happy"
when they are dead drunk...
All that time and effort wasted! Should have studied Italian culture I
guess, perhaps I would have been happier, eh? <g>
> Of course, it's up to you. If you so prefer, you can of course
> continue sitting there with your grudges and surly attitude, and
> waste even more of your time on spewing negativity over usenet.
> Perhaps you need that outlet. Pity, in that case.
Oh I've found that a number of people on Usenet concur with some of my views
about the subject at hand, Bjorn :-)
--
Best
Greg
Oct 27th 2004, 6:07 pm
#15
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Russia and the Urals
"Gregory Morrow" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected] hlink.net>...
> Bjorn Olsson wrote:
>
> > "Gregory Morrow" <[email protected]> wrote in
> message news:<[email protected] hlink.net>...
> >
> > > Try approaching a Russian on the street and see how you're treated...
> >
> > Eh? As far as I remember I have been treated perfectly fine in about
> > 99% of the three-million-or-so cases when I've done this. (Special
> > thanks go to the very helpful gentleman we met this summer, who took
> > 15 minutes of his time to show us the way to a building-material shop
> > that we couldn't find, even though he was late for work and it was not
> > in his direction).
> >
> > Also, since I am not easily identified as non-Russian by the way I
> > look, people assume that I am Russian and often approach me with
> > questions about directions, asking what the time is, asking if I have
> > a light, old ladies asking if I can help them lift their bag onto the
> > tram, etc, etc. Although my Russian is not very fluent yet, I
> > understand sufficiently much of what they say to able to tell that the
> > interaction is normally (on average) as polite as you would expect
> > anywhere else. And this is something you wouldn't notice if you don't
> > know the language, because a lot of the small cues like facial
> > expressions and tone of voice are different, and misleading if you are
> > unaware of the differences.
>
>
> Well IME they are just plain rude.
So are you, IME.
> I've scores of examples, but I won't
> bore any of y'all here with them...
>
>
> > In any case, thank you, Gregory, for your opinions and for sharing
> > your experiences. I hope that you will decide, at some point, to spend
> > a little effort trying to learn more about Russian culture and the
> > Russian language. I think a lot of the misunderstandings and bad
> > impressions that you currently have would be replaced by pleasant
> > surprises.
>
>
> Oh, I know plenty about Russia - in University I designed my own Russian
> studies minor, taking graduate - level Russian history, political, and
> geography courses, and even a year of Russian language (which I did pretty
> badly at)..I was always interested in Russia from when I was a little kid.
> In fourth grade elementary school (1964) I collected Russian stamps,
> airplane models, even took a copy of the Soviet propaganda magazine _Soviet
> Life_ (published here in the States during the Cold War days in a
> reciprocal agreement with the Soviet agreement) to school for "show and
> tell", it had a pic red picture of Lenin on the front and my teacher was a
> bit shocked, e.g. "WHERE did you get that!?" ;-)
>
>
> It's when I started to meet a large number of Russians when I realized
> something: that they are a fairly nasty, surly bunch. Not really people I
> want to hang out with, they act like manic - depressives, are only "happy"
> when they are dead drunk...
I wonder what circles you hang around in, really. It must be a small
and very biased sample (from which you are generalizing to 150 million
people..).
> All that time and effort wasted! Should have studied Italian culture I
> guess, perhaps I would have been happier, eh? <g>
>
>
> > Of course, it's up to you. If you so prefer, you can of course
> > continue sitting there with your grudges and surly attitude, and
> > waste even more of your time on spewing negativity over usenet.
> > Perhaps you need that outlet. Pity, in that case.
>
>
> Oh I've found that a number of people on Usenet concur with some of my views
> about the subject at hand, Bjorn :-)
Well, congratulations then.
Bjorn
> Bjorn Olsson wrote:
>
> > "Gregory Morrow" <[email protected]> wrote in
> message news:<[email protected] hlink.net>...
> >
> > > Try approaching a Russian on the street and see how you're treated...
> >
> > Eh? As far as I remember I have been treated perfectly fine in about
> > 99% of the three-million-or-so cases when I've done this. (Special
> > thanks go to the very helpful gentleman we met this summer, who took
> > 15 minutes of his time to show us the way to a building-material shop
> > that we couldn't find, even though he was late for work and it was not
> > in his direction).
> >
> > Also, since I am not easily identified as non-Russian by the way I
> > look, people assume that I am Russian and often approach me with
> > questions about directions, asking what the time is, asking if I have
> > a light, old ladies asking if I can help them lift their bag onto the
> > tram, etc, etc. Although my Russian is not very fluent yet, I
> > understand sufficiently much of what they say to able to tell that the
> > interaction is normally (on average) as polite as you would expect
> > anywhere else. And this is something you wouldn't notice if you don't
> > know the language, because a lot of the small cues like facial
> > expressions and tone of voice are different, and misleading if you are
> > unaware of the differences.
>
>
> Well IME they are just plain rude.
So are you, IME.
> I've scores of examples, but I won't
> bore any of y'all here with them...
>
>
> > In any case, thank you, Gregory, for your opinions and for sharing
> > your experiences. I hope that you will decide, at some point, to spend
> > a little effort trying to learn more about Russian culture and the
> > Russian language. I think a lot of the misunderstandings and bad
> > impressions that you currently have would be replaced by pleasant
> > surprises.
>
>
> Oh, I know plenty about Russia - in University I designed my own Russian
> studies minor, taking graduate - level Russian history, political, and
> geography courses, and even a year of Russian language (which I did pretty
> badly at)..I was always interested in Russia from when I was a little kid.
> In fourth grade elementary school (1964) I collected Russian stamps,
> airplane models, even took a copy of the Soviet propaganda magazine _Soviet
> Life_ (published here in the States during the Cold War days in a
> reciprocal agreement with the Soviet agreement) to school for "show and
> tell", it had a pic red picture of Lenin on the front and my teacher was a
> bit shocked, e.g. "WHERE did you get that!?" ;-)
>
>
> It's when I started to meet a large number of Russians when I realized
> something: that they are a fairly nasty, surly bunch. Not really people I
> want to hang out with, they act like manic - depressives, are only "happy"
> when they are dead drunk...
I wonder what circles you hang around in, really. It must be a small
and very biased sample (from which you are generalizing to 150 million
people..).
> All that time and effort wasted! Should have studied Italian culture I
> guess, perhaps I would have been happier, eh? <g>
>
>
> > Of course, it's up to you. If you so prefer, you can of course
> > continue sitting there with your grudges and surly attitude, and
> > waste even more of your time on spewing negativity over usenet.
> > Perhaps you need that outlet. Pity, in that case.
>
>
> Oh I've found that a number of people on Usenet concur with some of my views
> about the subject at hand, Bjorn :-)
Well, congratulations then.
Bjorn
