On Mon, 26 Sep 2005 16:52:50 +0200, Tim Challenger
<[email protected]> wrote:

    >On Mon, 26 Sep 2005 16:28:42 +0200, B Vaughan wrote:
    >> On Mon, 26 Sep 2005 15:02:08 +0200, Tim Challenger
    >> <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>
    >>>Italy is just because I think everything is broken.
    >>
    >> This old canard is just not true, at least not these days.
    >Have you tried using the petrol machines in Cortina recently?

I know a lot of people who have had trouble buying petrol with credit
cards in various countries. You can't extrapolate that to saying
everything is broken in the country.

I never have trouble buying petrol, but I have to say I've rarely
tried to buy it with a card.

--
Barbara Vaughan
My email address is my first initial followed by my surname at libero dot it
I answer travel questions only in the newsgroup

B Vaughan<[email protected]> writes:

    > On Mon, 26 Sep 2005 16:52:50 +0200, Tim Challenger
    > <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > >On Mon, 26 Sep 2005 16:28:42 +0200, B Vaughan wrote:
    > >
    > >> On Mon, 26 Sep 2005 15:02:08 +0200, Tim Challenger
    > >> <[email protected]> wrote:
    > >>
    > >>>Italy is just because I think everything is broken.
    > >>
    > >> This old canard is just not true, at least not these days.
    > >
    > >Have you tried using the petrol machines in Cortina recently?
    >
    > I know a lot of people who have had trouble buying petrol with credit
    > cards in various countries. You can't extrapolate that to saying
    > everything is broken in the country.

It's circularer than that: what you can't do is deduce that the reason
why the petrol machines are broken is that everything is broken if the
only evidence you have is the brokenness of petrol machines. (That
the petrol machines are broken because the petrol machines are broken
is not, in fact, a tautology but an abuse of the notion of causality.)

    > I never have trouble buying petrol, but I have to say I've rarely
    > tried to buy it with a card.

Des
has tried to buy it with a card, but not in Cortina recently

On 26 Sep 2005 17:12:10 +0100, Des Small <[email protected]>
wrote:

    >B Vaughan<[email protected]> writes:
    >> I know a lot of people who have had trouble buying petrol with credit
    >> cards in various countries. You can't extrapolate that to saying
    >> everything is broken in the country.
    >It's circularer than that: what you can't do is deduce that the reason
    >why the petrol machines are broken is that everything is broken if the
    >only evidence you have is the brokenness of petrol machines. (That
    >the petrol machines are broken because the petrol machines are broken
    >is not, in fact, a tautology but an abuse of the notion of causality.)

There is one point of information: several petrol machines are broken.
If one infers from that that everything is broken, that is
extrapolation, which my dictionary defines (in one sense) as inferring
by extending or projecting known information.


--
Barbara Vaughan
My email address is my first initial followed by my surname at libero dot it
I answer travel questions only in the newsgroup

B Vaughan<[email protected]> writes:

    > On 26 Sep 2005 17:12:10 +0100, Des Small <[email protected]>
    > wrote:
    >
    > >B Vaughan<[email protected]> writes:
    > >
    > >> I know a lot of people who have had trouble buying petrol with credit
    > >> cards in various countries. You can't extrapolate that to saying
    > >> everything is broken in the country.
    > >
    > >It's circularer than that: what you can't do is deduce that the reason
    > >why the petrol machines are broken is that everything is broken if the
    > >only evidence you have is the brokenness of petrol machines. (That
    > >the petrol machines are broken because the petrol machines are broken
    > >is not, in fact, a tautology but an abuse of the notion of causality.)
    >
    > There is one point of information: several petrol machines are broken.
    > If one infers from that that everything is broken, that is
    > extrapolation, which my dictionary defines (in one sense) as inferring
    > by extending or projecting known information.

That wasn't the proposition presented, though. That was: "The petrol
machines (in Cortina) are broken because everything (in Italy) is
broken".

Let P be the proposition "The petrol machines (in Cortina) are
broken", Q be the proposition "Everything (in Italy) is broken" and
let "<=" and "=>" stand for "because" and "thus" respectively.

You're defending "P => Q (by extrapolation)"; I'm denying that
"P => (P <= Q)" is a sound argument. The whole point Tim's claim was
surely that "everybody knows" that everything in Italy is broken.

Des

John Smith wrote:

    > Hi All -
    >
    > I'm trying to verify a rumor/fact.
    >
    > Three Wells Fargo bank employees have told my wife that ATM cards will
    > not work in Europe if th PIN begins with the numberal '1'.
    >
    > Since my PIN begins with a 1 I called my bank to get a new PIN. My bank
    > told me that not only is this not a problem but the real problem is if
    > the account number begins with a one. The person at my bank said that
    > several of their bank employees whos ATM card PIN starts with have had
    > no problems using them in Europe.
    >
Why not change your PIN at any ATM machine before you go, just to be safe?

In article <[email protected]>, Giovanni Azua
<[email protected]> wrote:

    > I think you have to be very lucky to have your cards working ...
    > e.g. I live in Switzerland and have a large and wide cards set
    > including: visa, american express, EC, Plus, Maestro. I went to
    > Italy for a weekend and was affraid to stay left on street for not
    > being able to refuel my car ... NONE of my cards worked in any
    > of the Italian banks (lack of connection, cash withdrawal not working
    > and NONE of the gas station accepted any kind of cards they only
    > accepted cash Euro) all defective

This happened to me in Rome 2 weeks ago over the weekend... turned out
the entire network was down or at least all the major banks... NOBODY,
even the locals could get cash out with their bank issued cards.
System was not up till 10:30am Monday morning... cost me over 10% to
get Euro from cash at an exchange booth. From that point on I kept
$100 in my wallet.

jay
Mon Sep 26, 2005
mailto:[email protected]



    > ... I tried on around 25 different
    > places stations, bank cash machines, etc etc.
    >
    > My conclusion was to take from your home country enough cash
    > in advance. I was visiting Genova Italy by car and got my slight fright
    > of staying lost on highway without gas to continue. As soon as I got
    > back to Switzerland everything worked just fine ;)
    >
    > HTH,
    >
    > Regards,
    > Giovanni
    >
    > "John Smith" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > > Hi All -
    > >
    > > I'm trying to verify a rumor/fact.
    > >
    > > Three Wells Fargo bank employees have told my wife that ATM cards will not
    > > work in Europe if th PIN begins with the numberal '1'.
    > >
    > > Since my PIN begins with a 1 I called my bank to get a new PIN. My bank
    > > told me that not only is this not a problem but the real problem is if
    > > the account number begins with a one. The person at my bank said that
    > > several of their bank employees whos ATM card PIN starts with have had
    > > no problems using them in Europe.
    > >
    > > So, I'm confused.
    > >
    > > Does anyone out there have experiences with this?
    > >
    > > Thanks!
    >

On Mon, 26 Sep 2005 10:21:56 -0700, Go Fig <[email protected]> wrote:

    >In article <[email protected]>, Giovanni Azua
    ><[email protected]> wrote:
    >> I think you have to be very lucky to have your cards working ...
    >> e.g. I live in Switzerland and have a large and wide cards set
    >> including: visa, american express, EC, Plus, Maestro. I went to
    >> Italy for a weekend and was affraid to stay left on street for not
    >> being able to refuel my car ... NONE of my cards worked in any
    >> of the Italian banks (lack of connection, cash withdrawal not working
    >> and NONE of the gas station accepted any kind of cards they only
    >> accepted cash Euro) all defective
    >This happened to me in Rome 2 weeks ago over the weekend... turned out
    >the entire network was down or at least all the major banks... NOBODY,
    >even the locals could get cash out with their bank issued cards.
    >System was not up till 10:30am Monday morning... cost me over 10% to
    >get Euro from cash at an exchange booth. From that point on I kept
    >$100 in my wallet.

Next time keep 100 Euros. It's worth more.
--
---
DFM - http://www.deepfriedmars.com
---
--

On 26 Sep 2005 18:00:21 +0100, Des Small <[email protected]>
wrote:

    >B Vaughan<[email protected]> writes:
    >> On 26 Sep 2005 17:12:10 +0100, Des Small <[email protected]>
    >> wrote:
    >>
    >> >B Vaughan<[email protected]> writes:
    >> >
    >> >> I know a lot of people who have had trouble buying petrol with credit
    >> >> cards in various countries. You can't extrapolate that to saying
    >> >> everything is broken in the country.
    >> >
    >> >It's circularer than that: what you can't do is deduce that the reason
    >> >why the petrol machines are broken is that everything is broken if the
    >> >only evidence you have is the brokenness of petrol machines. (That
    >> >the petrol machines are broken because the petrol machines are broken
    >> >is not, in fact, a tautology but an abuse of the notion of causality.)
    >>
    >> There is one point of information: several petrol machines are broken.
    >> If one infers from that that everything is broken, that is
    >> extrapolation, which my dictionary defines (in one sense) as inferring
    >> by extending or projecting known information.
    >That wasn't the proposition presented, though. That was: "The petrol
    >machines (in Cortina) are broken because everything (in Italy) is
    >broken".
    >Let P be the proposition "The petrol machines (in Cortina) are
    >broken", Q be the proposition "Everything (in Italy) is broken" and
    >let "<=" and "=>" stand for "because" and "thus" respectively.
    >You're defending "P => Q (by extrapolation)"; I'm denying that
    >"P => (P <= Q)" is a sound argument. The whole point Tim's claim was
    >surely that "everybody knows" that everything in Italy is broken.

But still everything seems to function just fine. How is that?

BTW, I haven't figured it out yet.
--
---
DFM - http://www.deepfriedmars.com
---
--

Hi Mike -

Good idea, but this is not an option with my bank/card. I would have
to either go to be bank branch (nearest is 250 km from where I live)
or have the bank cancel my ATM card and send me a new one. What a
pain!

mike o'sullivan wrote:
    > Why not change your PIN at any ATM machine before you go, just to be safe?

I received a warning like this before I went to Europe in 1999. There
was nothing in it- my cards worked perfectly in Germany, the
Netherlands, Austria, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Hungary and Ukraine,
both in 1999, 2000, and 2003.

On Mon, 26 Sep 2005 11:48:42 +0000 (UTC), Juliana L Holm
<[email protected]> wrote:

    >JohnT <[email protected]> wrote:
    >> "John Smith" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >> news:[email protected]...
    >>> Hi All -
    >>> I'm trying to verify a rumor/fact.
    >>> Three Wells Fargo bank employees have told my wife that ATM cards will not
    >>> work in Europe if th PIN begins with the numberal '1'.
    >>> Since my PIN begins with a 1 I called my bank to get a new PIN. My bank
    >>> told me that not only is this not a problem but the real problem is if
    >>> the account number begins with a one. The person at my bank said that
    >>> several of their bank employees whos ATM card PIN starts with have had
    >>> no problems using them in Europe.
    >>> So, I'm confused.
    >>> Does anyone out there have experiences with this?
    >My account number begins with a "1". I've used my ATM card in Europe many times
    >over the years. The only time I ever had a problem was one time when the ATMS
    >in the Munich airport were all out with Network Problems.
    >Julie
When I was in England in 1997 (at Diana's Funeral), my ATM would not
work because the ATM's in Europe do not ask for account (savings,
checking, etc.) If you don't specify (at your bank at home), that
savings is your principal account, then it tries to access checking
and that account may not be your active one. Then you get no funds,
even though you have thousands in your savings. When I returned, I
cancelled my checking account at that Bank.

Charlie

    >>> Thanks!
    >> It's a load of hooey. I have a Bank Account starting with 1 and my PIN at
    >> that account also starts with 1. And I can even use the card in the USA!
    >> JohnT
    >--
    >Julie
    >**********
    >Check out the blog of my 9 week Germany adventure at www.blurty.com/users/jholm
    >Check out my Travel Pages (non-commercial) at
    >http://www.dragonsholm.org/travel.htm

I would also note you should phone the banks service/security department
and inform them you will be using ATM/CC's in some general time/area
abroad (assuming this is outside of your general use area) to make sure
use isn't denied...

Tim K

"Charlie Thorne" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > On Mon, 26 Sep 2005 11:48:42 +0000 (UTC), Juliana L Holm
    > <[email protected]> wrote:
    > >JohnT <[email protected]> wrote:
    > >> "John Smith" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > >> news:[email protected]...
    > >>> Hi All -
    > >>>
    > >>> I'm trying to verify a rumor/fact.
    > >>>
    > >>> Three Wells Fargo bank employees have told my wife that ATM cards
will not
    > >>> work in Europe if th PIN begins with the numberal '1'.
    > >>>
    > >>> Since my PIN begins with a 1 I called my bank to get a new PIN.
My bank
    > >>> told me that not only is this not a problem but the real problem
is if
    > >>> the account number begins with a one. The person at my bank said
that
    > >>> several of their bank employees whos ATM card PIN starts with have
had
    > >>> no problems using them in Europe.
    > >>>
    > >>> So, I'm confused.
    > >>>
    > >>> Does anyone out there have experiences with this?
    > >>>
    > >My account number begins with a "1". I've used my ATM card in Europe
many times
    > >over the years. The only time I ever had a problem was one time when
the ATMS
    > >in the Munich airport were all out with Network Problems.
    > >
    > >Julie
    > >
    > When I was in England in 1997 (at Diana's Funeral), my ATM would not
    > work because the ATM's in Europe do not ask for account (savings,
    > checking, etc.) If you don't specify (at your bank at home), that
    > savings is your principal account, then it tries to access checking
    > and that account may not be your active one. Then you get no funds,
    > even though you have thousands in your savings. When I returned, I
    > cancelled my checking account at that Bank.
    > Charlie
    > >
    > >>> Thanks!
    > >
    > >> It's a load of hooey. I have a Bank Account starting with 1 and my
PIN at
    > >> that account also starts with 1. And I can even use the card in the
USA!
    > >
    > >> JohnT
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >--
    > >Julie
    > >**********
    > >Check out the blog of my 9 week Germany adventure at
www.blurty.com/users/jholm
    > >Check out my Travel Pages (non-commercial) at
    > >http://www.dragonsholm.org/travel.htm

On Mon, 26 Sep 2005 21:44:54 +0100, DDT Filled Mormons wrote:

    > On 26 Sep 2005 18:00:21 +0100, Des Small <[email protected]>
    > wrote:
    >
    >>B Vaughan<[email protected]> writes:
    >>> On 26 Sep 2005 17:12:10 +0100, Des Small <[email protected]>
    >>> wrote:
    >>>
    >>> >B Vaughan<[email protected]> writes:
    >>> >
    >>> >> I know a lot of people who have had trouble buying petrol with credit
    >>> >> cards in various countries. You can't extrapolate that to saying
    >>> >> everything is broken in the country.
    >>> >
    >>> >It's circularer than that: what you can't do is deduce that the reason
    >>> >why the petrol machines are broken is that everything is broken if the
    >>> >only evidence you have is the brokenness of petrol machines. (That
    >>> >the petrol machines are broken because the petrol machines are broken
    >>> >is not, in fact, a tautology but an abuse of the notion of causality.)
    >>>
    >>> There is one point of information: several petrol machines are broken.
    >>> If one infers from that that everything is broken, that is
    >>> extrapolation, which my dictionary defines (in one sense) as inferring
    >>> by extending or projecting known information.
    >>That wasn't the proposition presented, though. That was: "The petrol
    >>machines (in Cortina) are broken because everything (in Italy) is
    >>broken".
    >>Let P be the proposition "The petrol machines (in Cortina) are
    >>broken", Q be the proposition "Everything (in Italy) is broken" and
    >>let "<=" and "=>" stand for "because" and "thus" respectively.
    >>You're defending "P => Q (by extrapolation)"; I'm denying that
    >>"P => (P <= Q)" is a sound argument. The whole point Tim's claim was
    >>surely that "everybody knows" that everything in Italy is broken.
    >
    > But still everything seems to function just fine. How is that?
    >
    > BTW, I haven't figured it out yet.

No-one uses petrol in Cortina, except tourists? Only diesel?

--
Tim C.

Thanks for all of your helpful comments!

I'm off to Italia on Saturday!

Ciao

On Sat, 01 Oct 2005 12:25:38 -0700, in rec.travel.europe, John Smith <[email protected]>
arranged some electrons, so they looked like this :

... Thanks for all of your helpful comments!
...
... I'm off to Italia on Saturday!
...
... Ciao

Buon viaggio!