Noway - Still The Richest Country?
Apr 17th 2005 | 6:28 am
#1
Guest
Posts: n/a
Noway - Still The Richest Country?
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/17/we...w/17bawer.html
April 17, 2005
PERSPECTIVE
We're Rich, You're Not. End of Story.
By BRUCE BAWER
"OSLO - THE received wisdom about economic life in the Nordic countries is
easily summed up: people here are incomparably affluent, with all their
needs met by an efficient welfare state. They believe it themselves. Yet the
reality - as this Oslo-dwelling American can attest, and as some recent
studies confirm - is not quite what it appears.
Even as the Scandinavian establishment peddles this dubious line, it serves
up a picture of the United States as a nation divided, inequitably, among
robber barons and wage slaves, not to mention armies of the homeless and
unemployed. It does this to keep people believing that their social welfare
system, financed by lofty income taxes, provides far more in the way of
economic protections and amenities than the American system. Protections,
yes -but some Norwegians might question the part about amenities.
In Oslo, library collections are woefully outdated, and public swimming
pools are in desperate need of maintenance. News reports describe serious
shortages of police officers and school supplies. When my mother-in-law went
to an emergency room recently, the hospital was out of cough medicine. Drug
addicts crowd downtown Oslo streets, as The Los Angeles Times recently
reported, but applicants for methadone programs are put on a months-long
waiting list.
In Norway, the standard line is that there must be some mistake, that such
things simply should not happen in "the world's richest country." Why do
Norwegians have such a wealthy self-image? Partly because, compared with
their grandparents (who lived before the discovery of North Sea oil), they
are rich. Few, however, question whether it really is the world's richest
country.
After I moved here six years ago, I quickly noticed that Norwegians live
more frugally than Americans do. They hang on to old appliances and
furniture that we would throw out. And they drive around in wrecks. In 2003,
when my partner and I took his teenage brother to New York - his first trip
outside of Europe - he stared boggle-eyed at the cars in the Newark Airport
parking lot, as mesmerized as Robin Williams in a New York grocery store in
"Moscow on the Hudson."
One image in particular sticks in my mind. In a Norwegian language class, my
teacher illustrated the meaning of the word matpakke - "packed lunch" - by
reaching into her backpack and pulling out a hero sandwich wrapped in wax
paper. It was her lunch. She held it up for all to see.
Yes, teachers are underpaid everywhere. But in Norway the matpakke is
ubiquitous, from classroom to boardroom. In New York, an office worker might
pop out at lunchtime to a deli; in Paris, she might enjoy quiche and a glass
of wine at a brasserie. In Norway, she will sit at her desk with a sandwich
from home.
It is not simply a matter of tradition, or a preference for a basic,
nonmaterialistic life. Dining out is just too pricey in a country where
teachers, for example, make about $50,000 a year before taxes. Even the
humblest of meals - a large pizza delivered from Oslo's most popular pizza
joint - will run from $34 to $48, including delivery fee and a 25 percent
value added tax.
Not that groceries are cheap, either. Every weekend, armies of Norwegians
drive to Sweden to stock up at supermarkets that are a bargain only by
Norwegian standards. And this isn't a great solution, either, since gasoline
(in this oil-exporting nation) costs more than $6 a gallon.
All this was illuminated last year in a study by a Swedish research
organization, Timbro, which compared the gross domestic products of the 15
European Union members (before the 2004 expansion) with those of the 50
American states and the District of Columbia. (Norway, not being a member of
the union, was not included.)
After adjusting the figures for the different purchasing powers of the
dollar and euro, the only European country whose economic output per person
was greater than the United States average was the tiny tax haven of
Luxembourg, which ranked third, just behind Delaware and slightly ahead of
Connecticut.
The next European country on the list was Ireland, down at 41st place out of
66; Sweden was 14th from the bottom (after Alabama), followed by Oklahoma,
and then Britain, France, Finland, Germany and Italy. The bottom three spots
on the list went to Spain, Portugal and Greece.
Alternatively, the study found, if the E.U. was treated as a single American
state, it would rank fifth from the bottom, topping only Arkansas, Montana,
West Virginia and Mississippi. In short, while Scandinavians are constantly
told how much better they have it than Americans, Timbro's statistics
suggest otherwise. So did a paper by a Swedish economics writer, Johan
Norberg.
Contrasting "the American dream" with "the European daydream," Mr. Norberg
described the difference: "Economic growth in the last 25 years has been 3
percent per annum in the U.S., compared to 2.2 percent in the E.U. That
means that the American economy has almost doubled, whereas the E.U. economy
has grown by slightly more than half. The purchasing power in the U.S. is
$36,100 per capita, and in the E.U. $26,000 - and the gap is constantly
widening."
The one detail in Timbro's study that didn't feel right to me was the
placement of Scandinavian countries near the top of the list and Spain near
the bottom. My own sense of things is that Spaniards live far better than
Scandinavians. In Norwegian pubs, for example, anyone rich or insane enough
to order, say, a gin and tonic is charged about $15 for a few teaspoons of
gin at the bottom of a glass of tonic; in Spain, the drinks are dirt-cheap
and the bartender will pour the gin up to the rim unless you say "stop."
In late March, another study, this one from KPMG, the international
accounting and consulting firm, cast light on this paradox. It indicated
that when disposable income was adjusted for cost of living, Scandinavians
were the poorest people in Western Europe. Danes had the lowest adjusted
income, Norwegians the second lowest, Swedes the third. Spain and Portugal,
with two of Europe's least regulated economies, led the list.
Most recently, the Danish Ministry of Finance released a study comparing the
income available for private consumption in 30 countries. Norway did
somewhat better here than in the KPMG study, lagging behind most of Western
Europe but at least beating out Ireland and Portugal.
The thrust, however, was to confirm Timbro's and Mr. Norberg's picture of
American and European wealth. While the private-consumption figure for the
United States was $32,900 per person, the countries of Western Europe (again
excepting Luxembourg, at $29,450) ranged between $13,850 and $23,500, with
Norway at $18,350.
Meanwhile, the references to Norway as "the world's richest country" keep on
coming. An April 2 article in Dagsavisen, a major Oslo daily, asked: How is
it that "in the world's richest country we're tearing down social services
that were built up when Norway was much poorer?"
Obviously, this is one misconception that won't be put to rest by a measly
think-tank study or two."
Bruce Bawer,a freelance writer based in Oslo, reports frequently on social
and cultural issues.
</>
April 17, 2005
PERSPECTIVE
We're Rich, You're Not. End of Story.
By BRUCE BAWER
"OSLO - THE received wisdom about economic life in the Nordic countries is
easily summed up: people here are incomparably affluent, with all their
needs met by an efficient welfare state. They believe it themselves. Yet the
reality - as this Oslo-dwelling American can attest, and as some recent
studies confirm - is not quite what it appears.
Even as the Scandinavian establishment peddles this dubious line, it serves
up a picture of the United States as a nation divided, inequitably, among
robber barons and wage slaves, not to mention armies of the homeless and
unemployed. It does this to keep people believing that their social welfare
system, financed by lofty income taxes, provides far more in the way of
economic protections and amenities than the American system. Protections,
yes -but some Norwegians might question the part about amenities.
In Oslo, library collections are woefully outdated, and public swimming
pools are in desperate need of maintenance. News reports describe serious
shortages of police officers and school supplies. When my mother-in-law went
to an emergency room recently, the hospital was out of cough medicine. Drug
addicts crowd downtown Oslo streets, as The Los Angeles Times recently
reported, but applicants for methadone programs are put on a months-long
waiting list.
In Norway, the standard line is that there must be some mistake, that such
things simply should not happen in "the world's richest country." Why do
Norwegians have such a wealthy self-image? Partly because, compared with
their grandparents (who lived before the discovery of North Sea oil), they
are rich. Few, however, question whether it really is the world's richest
country.
After I moved here six years ago, I quickly noticed that Norwegians live
more frugally than Americans do. They hang on to old appliances and
furniture that we would throw out. And they drive around in wrecks. In 2003,
when my partner and I took his teenage brother to New York - his first trip
outside of Europe - he stared boggle-eyed at the cars in the Newark Airport
parking lot, as mesmerized as Robin Williams in a New York grocery store in
"Moscow on the Hudson."
One image in particular sticks in my mind. In a Norwegian language class, my
teacher illustrated the meaning of the word matpakke - "packed lunch" - by
reaching into her backpack and pulling out a hero sandwich wrapped in wax
paper. It was her lunch. She held it up for all to see.
Yes, teachers are underpaid everywhere. But in Norway the matpakke is
ubiquitous, from classroom to boardroom. In New York, an office worker might
pop out at lunchtime to a deli; in Paris, she might enjoy quiche and a glass
of wine at a brasserie. In Norway, she will sit at her desk with a sandwich
from home.
It is not simply a matter of tradition, or a preference for a basic,
nonmaterialistic life. Dining out is just too pricey in a country where
teachers, for example, make about $50,000 a year before taxes. Even the
humblest of meals - a large pizza delivered from Oslo's most popular pizza
joint - will run from $34 to $48, including delivery fee and a 25 percent
value added tax.
Not that groceries are cheap, either. Every weekend, armies of Norwegians
drive to Sweden to stock up at supermarkets that are a bargain only by
Norwegian standards. And this isn't a great solution, either, since gasoline
(in this oil-exporting nation) costs more than $6 a gallon.
All this was illuminated last year in a study by a Swedish research
organization, Timbro, which compared the gross domestic products of the 15
European Union members (before the 2004 expansion) with those of the 50
American states and the District of Columbia. (Norway, not being a member of
the union, was not included.)
After adjusting the figures for the different purchasing powers of the
dollar and euro, the only European country whose economic output per person
was greater than the United States average was the tiny tax haven of
Luxembourg, which ranked third, just behind Delaware and slightly ahead of
Connecticut.
The next European country on the list was Ireland, down at 41st place out of
66; Sweden was 14th from the bottom (after Alabama), followed by Oklahoma,
and then Britain, France, Finland, Germany and Italy. The bottom three spots
on the list went to Spain, Portugal and Greece.
Alternatively, the study found, if the E.U. was treated as a single American
state, it would rank fifth from the bottom, topping only Arkansas, Montana,
West Virginia and Mississippi. In short, while Scandinavians are constantly
told how much better they have it than Americans, Timbro's statistics
suggest otherwise. So did a paper by a Swedish economics writer, Johan
Norberg.
Contrasting "the American dream" with "the European daydream," Mr. Norberg
described the difference: "Economic growth in the last 25 years has been 3
percent per annum in the U.S., compared to 2.2 percent in the E.U. That
means that the American economy has almost doubled, whereas the E.U. economy
has grown by slightly more than half. The purchasing power in the U.S. is
$36,100 per capita, and in the E.U. $26,000 - and the gap is constantly
widening."
The one detail in Timbro's study that didn't feel right to me was the
placement of Scandinavian countries near the top of the list and Spain near
the bottom. My own sense of things is that Spaniards live far better than
Scandinavians. In Norwegian pubs, for example, anyone rich or insane enough
to order, say, a gin and tonic is charged about $15 for a few teaspoons of
gin at the bottom of a glass of tonic; in Spain, the drinks are dirt-cheap
and the bartender will pour the gin up to the rim unless you say "stop."
In late March, another study, this one from KPMG, the international
accounting and consulting firm, cast light on this paradox. It indicated
that when disposable income was adjusted for cost of living, Scandinavians
were the poorest people in Western Europe. Danes had the lowest adjusted
income, Norwegians the second lowest, Swedes the third. Spain and Portugal,
with two of Europe's least regulated economies, led the list.
Most recently, the Danish Ministry of Finance released a study comparing the
income available for private consumption in 30 countries. Norway did
somewhat better here than in the KPMG study, lagging behind most of Western
Europe but at least beating out Ireland and Portugal.
The thrust, however, was to confirm Timbro's and Mr. Norberg's picture of
American and European wealth. While the private-consumption figure for the
United States was $32,900 per person, the countries of Western Europe (again
excepting Luxembourg, at $29,450) ranged between $13,850 and $23,500, with
Norway at $18,350.
Meanwhile, the references to Norway as "the world's richest country" keep on
coming. An April 2 article in Dagsavisen, a major Oslo daily, asked: How is
it that "in the world's richest country we're tearing down social services
that were built up when Norway was much poorer?"
Obviously, this is one misconception that won't be put to rest by a measly
think-tank study or two."
Bruce Bawer,a freelance writer based in Oslo, reports frequently on social
and cultural issues.
</>
Apr 17th 2005 | 6:47 am
#2
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Noway - Still The Richest Country?
"Gregory Morrow"
<gregorymorrowEMERGENCYCANCELLATIONARCHIMEDES@eart hlink.net> wrote:
>http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/17/we...w/17bawer.html
Greg, you have been beaten to the draw by about ten hours.
And it's a crap piece of journalism.
--
PB
The return address has been MUNGED
<gregorymorrowEMERGENCYCANCELLATIONARCHIMEDES@eart hlink.net> wrote:
>http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/17/we...w/17bawer.html
Greg, you have been beaten to the draw by about ten hours.
And it's a crap piece of journalism.
--
PB
The return address has been MUNGED
Apr 17th 2005 | 10:25 am
#3
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Noway - Still The Richest Country?
On Sun, 17 Apr 2005 19:47:34 +0100, Padraig Breathnach
<[email protected]> wrote:
>"Gregory Morrow"
><gregorymorrowEMERGENCYCANCELLATIONARCHIMEDES@ear thlink.net> wrote:
>>http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/17/we...w/17bawer.html
>Greg, you have been beaten to the draw by about ten hours.
>And it's a crap piece of journalism.
The typical response of someone whose illusions have been dashed.
<[email protected]> wrote:
>"Gregory Morrow"
><gregorymorrowEMERGENCYCANCELLATIONARCHIMEDES@ear thlink.net> wrote:
>>http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/17/we...w/17bawer.html
>Greg, you have been beaten to the draw by about ten hours.
>And it's a crap piece of journalism.
The typical response of someone whose illusions have been dashed.
Apr 17th 2005 | 9:11 pm
#4
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Noway - Still The Richest Country?
Gregory Morrow wrote/quoted from the New York Times
>OSLO - THE received wisdom about economic life in the Nordic countries is
>easily summed up: people here are incomparably affluent, with all their
>needs met by an efficient welfare state.
Incomparably affluent and all needs met? Relatively few people in Norway, and especially not in Oslo
would say that. If you instead said basic needs secured, and equal chance for all to get
a high position in society more would agree with you.
Also due the high income of the state ---> quite high minimum wage, high social services
payments for the unemployed etc, we still have a lot more 60-70ies kind of society
than many other countries as discussed in a similar thread.
The high minmum wage makes it however very expensive to reach "upper middle class" with
perks like employed maids or eating out a lot.
>In Oslo, library collections are woefully outdated, and public swimming
>pools are in desperate need of maintenance. News reports describe serious
>shortages of police officers and school supplies.
Reads very much the same as any local newspaper in Europe and North America. High wages of course
comes into the picture.
> When my mother-in-law went
>to an emergency room recently, the hospital was out of cough medicine.
Being out of something may just as well be a logistics problem, and the hospitals has had there
special kind of problem lately. To save money and in some cases to compete with
private but to a large degree publicly financed hospitals, goverment owned hospitals have been made into
free-standing "companies" with separate budgets.
Since they still are governed by a number of governmental working regulations and so on, it is
tempting to use other management strategies like just on time deliveries etc, which
does not always fit a hospital
>Drug
>addicts crowd downtown Oslo streets, as The Los Angeles Times recently
>reported, but applicants for methadone programs are put on a months-long
>waiting list.
This is not a question abut available money, but that a majority of Norwegians think that
methadone programs are not a medical treatment but governmentally financed drug abuse.
I think however that most Norwegians are aware of that the buying power after taking
into account wages are more or less the same all over Europe.
When asked to compare to USA the answers would differ a lot more, although richer when healthy,
broke when sick might be typical
Comparing private-consumption figure is quite difficult however and I wonder how the journalist managed to
get a disposable income of $32,900 per person for the USA when the US census bureau give a per capita
income of $21,587 (1999)
>One image in particular sticks in my mind. In a Norwegian language class, my
>teacher illustrated the meaning of the word matpakke - "packed lunch" - by
>reaching into her backpack and pulling out a hero sandwich wrapped in wax
>paper. It was her lunch. She held it up for all to see.
This is about habit and culture not economics. I worked for half a year in a research institution in
state of Washington. While the income was typically $75 000 or more most people ate from lunch boxes within
their offices.
Øyvind Seland
From oyvindse Mon Apr 18 11:10:06 2005
Newsgroups: rec.travel.europe
Sender: [email protected] (\yvind Seland)
From: [email protected] (Øyvind Seland)
Subject: Re: Norway - Still The Richest Country?
Path: oyvindse
Distribution:
Followup-To:
References: <[email protected]. net>
Organization: University of Oslo, Norway
Keywords:
Gregory Morrow wrote/quoted from the New York Times
>OSLO - THE received wisdom about economic life in the Nordic countries is
>easily summed up: people here are incomparably affluent, with all their
>needs met by an efficient welfare state.
Incomparably affluent and all needs met? Relatively few people in Norway, and especially not in Oslo
would say that. If you instead said basic needs secured, and equal chance for all to get
a high position in society more would agree with you.
Also due the high income of the state ---> quite high minimum wage, high social services
payments for the unemployed etc, we still have a lot more 60-70ies kind of society
than many other countries as discussed in a similar thread.
The high minmum wage makes it however very expensive to reach "upper middle class" with
perks like employed maids or eating out a lot.
>In Oslo, library collections are woefully outdated, and public swimming
>pools are in desperate need of maintenance. News reports describe serious
>shortages of police officers and school supplies.
Reads very much the same as any local newspaper in Europe and North America. High wages of course
comes into the picture.
> When my mother-in-law went
>to an emergency room recently, the hospital was out of cough medicine.
Being out of something may just as well be a logistics problem, and the hospitals has had there
special kind of problem lately. To save money and in some cases to compete with
private but to a large degree publicly financed hospitals, goverment owned hospitals have been made into
free-standing "companies" with separate budgets.
Since they still are governed by a number of governmental working regulations and so on, it is
tempting to use other management strategies like just on time deliveries etc, which
does not always fit a hospital
>Drug
>addicts crowd downtown Oslo streets, as The Los Angeles Times recently
>reported, but applicants for methadone programs are put on a months-long
>waiting list.
This is not a question abut available money, but that a majority of Norwegians think that
methadone programs are not a medical treatment but governmentally financed drug abuse.
I think however that most Norwegians are aware of that the buying power after taking
into account wages are more or less the same all over Europe.
When asked to compare to USA the answers would differ a lot more, although richer when healthy,
broke when sick might be typical
Comparing private-consumption figure is quite difficult however and I wonder how the journalist managed to
get a disposable income of $32,900 per person for the USA when the US census bureau give a per capita
income of $21,587 (1999)
>One image in particular sticks in my mind. In a Norwegian language class, my
>teacher illustrated the meaning of the word matpakke - "packed lunch" - by
>reaching into her backpack and pulling out a hero sandwich wrapped in wax
>paper. It was her lunch. She held it up for all to see.
This is about habit and culture not economics. I worked for half a year in a research institution in
state of Washington. While the income was typically $75 000 or more most people ate from lunch boxes within
their offices.
Øyvind Seland
>OSLO - THE received wisdom about economic life in the Nordic countries is
>easily summed up: people here are incomparably affluent, with all their
>needs met by an efficient welfare state.
Incomparably affluent and all needs met? Relatively few people in Norway, and especially not in Oslo
would say that. If you instead said basic needs secured, and equal chance for all to get
a high position in society more would agree with you.
Also due the high income of the state ---> quite high minimum wage, high social services
payments for the unemployed etc, we still have a lot more 60-70ies kind of society
than many other countries as discussed in a similar thread.
The high minmum wage makes it however very expensive to reach "upper middle class" with
perks like employed maids or eating out a lot.
>In Oslo, library collections are woefully outdated, and public swimming
>pools are in desperate need of maintenance. News reports describe serious
>shortages of police officers and school supplies.
Reads very much the same as any local newspaper in Europe and North America. High wages of course
comes into the picture.
> When my mother-in-law went
>to an emergency room recently, the hospital was out of cough medicine.
Being out of something may just as well be a logistics problem, and the hospitals has had there
special kind of problem lately. To save money and in some cases to compete with
private but to a large degree publicly financed hospitals, goverment owned hospitals have been made into
free-standing "companies" with separate budgets.
Since they still are governed by a number of governmental working regulations and so on, it is
tempting to use other management strategies like just on time deliveries etc, which
does not always fit a hospital
>Drug
>addicts crowd downtown Oslo streets, as The Los Angeles Times recently
>reported, but applicants for methadone programs are put on a months-long
>waiting list.
This is not a question abut available money, but that a majority of Norwegians think that
methadone programs are not a medical treatment but governmentally financed drug abuse.
I think however that most Norwegians are aware of that the buying power after taking
into account wages are more or less the same all over Europe.
When asked to compare to USA the answers would differ a lot more, although richer when healthy,
broke when sick might be typical
Comparing private-consumption figure is quite difficult however and I wonder how the journalist managed to
get a disposable income of $32,900 per person for the USA when the US census bureau give a per capita
income of $21,587 (1999)
>One image in particular sticks in my mind. In a Norwegian language class, my
>teacher illustrated the meaning of the word matpakke - "packed lunch" - by
>reaching into her backpack and pulling out a hero sandwich wrapped in wax
>paper. It was her lunch. She held it up for all to see.
This is about habit and culture not economics. I worked for half a year in a research institution in
state of Washington. While the income was typically $75 000 or more most people ate from lunch boxes within
their offices.
Øyvind Seland
From oyvindse Mon Apr 18 11:10:06 2005
Newsgroups: rec.travel.europe
Sender: [email protected] (\yvind Seland)
From: [email protected] (Øyvind Seland)
Subject: Re: Norway - Still The Richest Country?
Path: oyvindse
Distribution:
Followup-To:
References: <[email protected]. net>
Organization: University of Oslo, Norway
Keywords:
Gregory Morrow wrote/quoted from the New York Times
>OSLO - THE received wisdom about economic life in the Nordic countries is
>easily summed up: people here are incomparably affluent, with all their
>needs met by an efficient welfare state.
Incomparably affluent and all needs met? Relatively few people in Norway, and especially not in Oslo
would say that. If you instead said basic needs secured, and equal chance for all to get
a high position in society more would agree with you.
Also due the high income of the state ---> quite high minimum wage, high social services
payments for the unemployed etc, we still have a lot more 60-70ies kind of society
than many other countries as discussed in a similar thread.
The high minmum wage makes it however very expensive to reach "upper middle class" with
perks like employed maids or eating out a lot.
>In Oslo, library collections are woefully outdated, and public swimming
>pools are in desperate need of maintenance. News reports describe serious
>shortages of police officers and school supplies.
Reads very much the same as any local newspaper in Europe and North America. High wages of course
comes into the picture.
> When my mother-in-law went
>to an emergency room recently, the hospital was out of cough medicine.
Being out of something may just as well be a logistics problem, and the hospitals has had there
special kind of problem lately. To save money and in some cases to compete with
private but to a large degree publicly financed hospitals, goverment owned hospitals have been made into
free-standing "companies" with separate budgets.
Since they still are governed by a number of governmental working regulations and so on, it is
tempting to use other management strategies like just on time deliveries etc, which
does not always fit a hospital
>Drug
>addicts crowd downtown Oslo streets, as The Los Angeles Times recently
>reported, but applicants for methadone programs are put on a months-long
>waiting list.
This is not a question abut available money, but that a majority of Norwegians think that
methadone programs are not a medical treatment but governmentally financed drug abuse.
I think however that most Norwegians are aware of that the buying power after taking
into account wages are more or less the same all over Europe.
When asked to compare to USA the answers would differ a lot more, although richer when healthy,
broke when sick might be typical
Comparing private-consumption figure is quite difficult however and I wonder how the journalist managed to
get a disposable income of $32,900 per person for the USA when the US census bureau give a per capita
income of $21,587 (1999)
>One image in particular sticks in my mind. In a Norwegian language class, my
>teacher illustrated the meaning of the word matpakke - "packed lunch" - by
>reaching into her backpack and pulling out a hero sandwich wrapped in wax
>paper. It was her lunch. She held it up for all to see.
This is about habit and culture not economics. I worked for half a year in a research institution in
state of Washington. While the income was typically $75 000 or more most people ate from lunch boxes within
their offices.
Øyvind Seland
Apr 17th 2005 | 11:39 pm
#5
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Noway - Still The Richest Country?
On Mon, 18 Apr 2005 09:11:44 +0000 (UTC), [email protected]
(Øyvind Seland) wrote:
>Gregory Morrow wrote/quoted from the New York Times
>>OSLO - THE received wisdom about economic life in the Nordic countries is
>>easily summed up: people here are incomparably affluent, with all their
>>needs met by an efficient welfare state.
>Incomparably affluent and all needs met? Relatively few people in Norway, and especially not in Oslo
>would say that. If you instead said basic needs secured, and equal chance for all to get
>a high position in society more would agree with you.
>Also due the high income of the state ---> quite high minimum wage, high social services
>payments for the unemployed etc, we still have a lot more 60-70ies kind of society
>than many other countries as discussed in a similar thread.
>The high minmum wage makes it however very expensive to reach "upper middle class" with
>perks like employed maids or eating out a lot.
Interesting. What is the minimum wage in Norway?
>>In Oslo, library collections are woefully outdated, and public swimming
>>pools are in desperate need of maintenance. News reports describe serious
>>shortages of police officers and school supplies.
>Reads very much the same as any local newspaper in Europe and North America. High wages of course
>comes into the picture.
Yes, it does. I think the point though is that Norway is a small
country with a lot of oil revenue so why is this happening at all if
this is the case? Why is there not enough money to pay for it?
>> When my mother-in-law went
>>to an emergency room recently, the hospital was out of cough medicine.
>Being out of something may just as well be a logistics problem, and the hospitals has had there
>special kind of problem lately. To save money and in some cases to compete with
>private but to a large degree publicly financed hospitals, goverment owned hospitals have been made into
>free-standing "companies" with separate budgets.
>Since they still are governed by a number of governmental working regulations and so on, it is
>tempting to use other management strategies like just on time deliveries etc, which
>does not always fit a hospital
Cough medicine is, of course, a dumb example. My question is are
there waiting lists in Norway for serious conditions like heart
surgery, hip replacement, etc. One can buy their own cough medicine.
>>Drug
>>addicts crowd downtown Oslo streets, as The Los Angeles Times recently
>>reported, but applicants for methadone programs are put on a months-long
>>waiting list.
>This is not a question abut available money, but that a majority of Norwegians think that
>methadone programs are not a medical treatment but governmentally financed drug abuse.
One could argue that alright, but once addicted (presumably not on
methadone but on some other drug like heroin) how can they then be
treated? Once on, most addicts stay on and the real aim should be to
protect society against the crimes they commit to finance their
habits. Wouldn't that be what the methadone is for?
>I think however that most Norwegians are aware of that the buying power after taking
>into account wages are more or less the same all over Europe.
>When asked to compare to USA the answers would differ a lot more, although richer when healthy,
>broke when sick might be typical
>Comparing private-consumption figure is quite difficult however and I wonder how the journalist managed to
>get a disposable income of $32,900 per person for the USA when the US census bureau give a per capita
>income of $21,587 (1999)
Good question.
>>One image in particular sticks in my mind. In a Norwegian language class, my
>>teacher illustrated the meaning of the word matpakke - "packed lunch" - by
>>reaching into her backpack and pulling out a hero sandwich wrapped in wax
>>paper. It was her lunch. She held it up for all to see.
>This is about habit and culture not economics. I worked for half a year in a research institution in
>state of Washington. While the income was typically $75 000 or more most people ate from lunch boxes within
>their offices.
This could be that, but couldn't it also be that they just don't have
the money on an equivalent $50,000 salary? Where I live, teachers can
make $70,000 or so and prices are much lower than Norway, so isn't
this point plausible?
(Øyvind Seland) wrote:
>Gregory Morrow wrote/quoted from the New York Times
>>OSLO - THE received wisdom about economic life in the Nordic countries is
>>easily summed up: people here are incomparably affluent, with all their
>>needs met by an efficient welfare state.
>Incomparably affluent and all needs met? Relatively few people in Norway, and especially not in Oslo
>would say that. If you instead said basic needs secured, and equal chance for all to get
>a high position in society more would agree with you.
>Also due the high income of the state ---> quite high minimum wage, high social services
>payments for the unemployed etc, we still have a lot more 60-70ies kind of society
>than many other countries as discussed in a similar thread.
>The high minmum wage makes it however very expensive to reach "upper middle class" with
>perks like employed maids or eating out a lot.
Interesting. What is the minimum wage in Norway?
>>In Oslo, library collections are woefully outdated, and public swimming
>>pools are in desperate need of maintenance. News reports describe serious
>>shortages of police officers and school supplies.
>Reads very much the same as any local newspaper in Europe and North America. High wages of course
>comes into the picture.
Yes, it does. I think the point though is that Norway is a small
country with a lot of oil revenue so why is this happening at all if
this is the case? Why is there not enough money to pay for it?
>> When my mother-in-law went
>>to an emergency room recently, the hospital was out of cough medicine.
>Being out of something may just as well be a logistics problem, and the hospitals has had there
>special kind of problem lately. To save money and in some cases to compete with
>private but to a large degree publicly financed hospitals, goverment owned hospitals have been made into
>free-standing "companies" with separate budgets.
>Since they still are governed by a number of governmental working regulations and so on, it is
>tempting to use other management strategies like just on time deliveries etc, which
>does not always fit a hospital
Cough medicine is, of course, a dumb example. My question is are
there waiting lists in Norway for serious conditions like heart
surgery, hip replacement, etc. One can buy their own cough medicine.
>>Drug
>>addicts crowd downtown Oslo streets, as The Los Angeles Times recently
>>reported, but applicants for methadone programs are put on a months-long
>>waiting list.
>This is not a question abut available money, but that a majority of Norwegians think that
>methadone programs are not a medical treatment but governmentally financed drug abuse.
One could argue that alright, but once addicted (presumably not on
methadone but on some other drug like heroin) how can they then be
treated? Once on, most addicts stay on and the real aim should be to
protect society against the crimes they commit to finance their
habits. Wouldn't that be what the methadone is for?
>I think however that most Norwegians are aware of that the buying power after taking
>into account wages are more or less the same all over Europe.
>When asked to compare to USA the answers would differ a lot more, although richer when healthy,
>broke when sick might be typical
>Comparing private-consumption figure is quite difficult however and I wonder how the journalist managed to
>get a disposable income of $32,900 per person for the USA when the US census bureau give a per capita
>income of $21,587 (1999)
Good question.
>>One image in particular sticks in my mind. In a Norwegian language class, my
>>teacher illustrated the meaning of the word matpakke - "packed lunch" - by
>>reaching into her backpack and pulling out a hero sandwich wrapped in wax
>>paper. It was her lunch. She held it up for all to see.
>This is about habit and culture not economics. I worked for half a year in a research institution in
>state of Washington. While the income was typically $75 000 or more most people ate from lunch boxes within
>their offices.
This could be that, but couldn't it also be that they just don't have
the money on an equivalent $50,000 salary? Where I live, teachers can
make $70,000 or so and prices are much lower than Norway, so isn't
this point plausible?
Apr 18th 2005 | 2:28 am
#6
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Noway - Still The Richest Country?
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] writes:
> On Mon, 18 Apr 2005 09:11:44 +0000 (UTC), [email protected]
> (Øyvind Seland) wrote:
>
> >Gregory Morrow wrote/quoted from the New York Times
> >
> >The high minmum wage makes it however very expensive to reach "upper middle class" with
> >perks like employed maids or eating out a lot.
>
> Interesting. What is the minimum wage in Norway?
Actually to be more exact there are AFAIK no law on minimum wage in Norway. There are on the other hands laws
that said you should have a decent wage. This level is interpreted to be close to the level negotiated
by the trade unions. I think the wage starts at about $ 17 pr hour and increases depending on education etc.
> >
> >
> >>In Oslo, library collections are woefully outdated, and public swimming
> >>pools are in desperate need of maintenance. News reports describe serious
> >>shortages of police officers and school supplies.
> >
> >Reads very much the same as any local newspaper in Europe and North America. High wages of course
> >comes into the picture.
>
> Yes, it does. I think the point though is that Norway is a small
> country with a lot of oil revenue so why is this happening at all if
> this is the case? Why is there not enough money to pay for it?
There is, at least in the short to medium term. The problem is paying it without increasing inflation and
consequently closing down industrial production except oil.
At the same time everyone knows that
there are a lot of money around so it is fairly easy for the politicians in the parliament
to establish new laws improving social services. The social services are often paid
by the towns and "kommune", that is only partially reimbursed for the new laws.
Well you need to follow the law, and what is not in the law like libraries suffer.
Also, partly since the state was supposed to take care of things, and partly due to our'
poor past, we do not have the US tradition for large scale donations. The donations and voluntary
work tend to be on a more local scale. The US tradition of donations is a very fine
one and should be commended. I do not think you would find very many rich people
in the US today supporting Andrew Carnegie's idea that most of the inheritance shuld be taken over
by the government so that each generation needed to show itself.
> >My question is are
> there waiting lists in Norway for serious conditions like heart
> surgery, hip replacement, etc. One can buy their own cough medicine.
Yes, but they are quite short nowadays. Short is on the order of ~1 month.
To obtain the shortest waiting times you may need to go to a hospital
quite far away though. While your own travel expenses is covered,
you often like to have your family close by, which is generally not covered.
About drug addicts and methadone.
>
> once addicted (presumably not on
> methadone but on some other drug like heroin) how can they then be
> treated? Once on, most addicts stay on and the real aim should be to
> protect society against the crimes they commit to finance their
> habits. Wouldn't that be what the methadone is for?
Certainly, but why not pay for the heroin in the first place then?
More seriously, a middle way has to be found, but most people do not like the idea about
the government funding what they see as drug abuse.
> >>One image in particular sticks in my mind. In a Norwegian language class, my
> >>teacher illustrated the meaning of the word matpakke - "packed lunch" - by
> >>reaching into her backpack and pulling out a hero sandwich wrapped in wax
> >>paper. It was her lunch. She held it up for all to see.
> >
> >
> >This is about habit and culture not economics. I worked for half a year in a research institution in
> >state of Washington. While the income was typically $75 000 or more most people ate from lunch boxes within
> >their offices.
> >
> >
>
> This could be that, but couldn't it also be that they just don't have
> the money on an equivalent $50,000 salary? Where I live, teachers can
> make $70,000 or so and prices are much lower than Norway, so isn't
> this point plausible?
No, this is certainly mostly about habit, and no tradition for long lunches.
The comparison of Norwegian $ 50 000 salaries and possible US $ 70 000
can btw also be used to show another difference between Norway and the US.
Within the same type of position like a teacher the US salaries varies a lot
more than in Norway. The variation in Norway is mostly based on education and experience
and is to a large degree set by the trade union negotiations. An employer may offer a higher
salary, but not a lower one than the given guidelines. The cost of living on the other hand
varies quite a bit.
And $ 70 000 is not a typical salary for a teacher in US, possibly in New York?
Some simple googling found these numbers
Nationally, the median salary for high school teachers is $43,950 per year.
Half of all high school teachers earn between $34,660 and $55,430 per year
Øyvind Seland
> On Mon, 18 Apr 2005 09:11:44 +0000 (UTC), [email protected]
> (Øyvind Seland) wrote:
>
> >Gregory Morrow wrote/quoted from the New York Times
> >
> >The high minmum wage makes it however very expensive to reach "upper middle class" with
> >perks like employed maids or eating out a lot.
>
> Interesting. What is the minimum wage in Norway?
Actually to be more exact there are AFAIK no law on minimum wage in Norway. There are on the other hands laws
that said you should have a decent wage. This level is interpreted to be close to the level negotiated
by the trade unions. I think the wage starts at about $ 17 pr hour and increases depending on education etc.
> >
> >
> >>In Oslo, library collections are woefully outdated, and public swimming
> >>pools are in desperate need of maintenance. News reports describe serious
> >>shortages of police officers and school supplies.
> >
> >Reads very much the same as any local newspaper in Europe and North America. High wages of course
> >comes into the picture.
>
> Yes, it does. I think the point though is that Norway is a small
> country with a lot of oil revenue so why is this happening at all if
> this is the case? Why is there not enough money to pay for it?
There is, at least in the short to medium term. The problem is paying it without increasing inflation and
consequently closing down industrial production except oil.
At the same time everyone knows that
there are a lot of money around so it is fairly easy for the politicians in the parliament
to establish new laws improving social services. The social services are often paid
by the towns and "kommune", that is only partially reimbursed for the new laws.
Well you need to follow the law, and what is not in the law like libraries suffer.
Also, partly since the state was supposed to take care of things, and partly due to our'
poor past, we do not have the US tradition for large scale donations. The donations and voluntary
work tend to be on a more local scale. The US tradition of donations is a very fine
one and should be commended. I do not think you would find very many rich people
in the US today supporting Andrew Carnegie's idea that most of the inheritance shuld be taken over
by the government so that each generation needed to show itself.
> >My question is are
> there waiting lists in Norway for serious conditions like heart
> surgery, hip replacement, etc. One can buy their own cough medicine.
Yes, but they are quite short nowadays. Short is on the order of ~1 month.
To obtain the shortest waiting times you may need to go to a hospital
quite far away though. While your own travel expenses is covered,
you often like to have your family close by, which is generally not covered.
About drug addicts and methadone.
>
> once addicted (presumably not on
> methadone but on some other drug like heroin) how can they then be
> treated? Once on, most addicts stay on and the real aim should be to
> protect society against the crimes they commit to finance their
> habits. Wouldn't that be what the methadone is for?
Certainly, but why not pay for the heroin in the first place then?
More seriously, a middle way has to be found, but most people do not like the idea about
the government funding what they see as drug abuse.
> >>One image in particular sticks in my mind. In a Norwegian language class, my
> >>teacher illustrated the meaning of the word matpakke - "packed lunch" - by
> >>reaching into her backpack and pulling out a hero sandwich wrapped in wax
> >>paper. It was her lunch. She held it up for all to see.
> >
> >
> >This is about habit and culture not economics. I worked for half a year in a research institution in
> >state of Washington. While the income was typically $75 000 or more most people ate from lunch boxes within
> >their offices.
> >
> >
>
> This could be that, but couldn't it also be that they just don't have
> the money on an equivalent $50,000 salary? Where I live, teachers can
> make $70,000 or so and prices are much lower than Norway, so isn't
> this point plausible?
No, this is certainly mostly about habit, and no tradition for long lunches.
The comparison of Norwegian $ 50 000 salaries and possible US $ 70 000
can btw also be used to show another difference between Norway and the US.
Within the same type of position like a teacher the US salaries varies a lot
more than in Norway. The variation in Norway is mostly based on education and experience
and is to a large degree set by the trade union negotiations. An employer may offer a higher
salary, but not a lower one than the given guidelines. The cost of living on the other hand
varies quite a bit.
And $ 70 000 is not a typical salary for a teacher in US, possibly in New York?
Some simple googling found these numbers
Nationally, the median salary for high school teachers is $43,950 per year.
Half of all high school teachers earn between $34,660 and $55,430 per year
Øyvind Seland
