Dominik

Hi all,

We plan to make a 2-week tour of Italy in May with a following
preliminary plan: Rome - Perugia - Florence - Siene - Venice - back to Rome.

Which would be the best to go with, rent a car, or stick to rail? Does
anyone have any experience with rail travel, and the difference in
between 1st/2nd class? Also, what would be a safe consideration for a
daily meal budget?

Thanks a lot,
Dominik

Barbara Vaughan

Dominik wrote:
    >
    > Hi all,
    >
    > We plan to make a 2-week tour of Italy in May with a following
    > preliminary plan: Rome - Perugia - Florence - Siene - Venice - back to Rome.
    >
    > Which would be the best to go with, rent a car, or stick to rail? Does
    > anyone have any experience with rail travel, and the difference in
    > between 1st/2nd class? Also, what would be a safe consideration for a
    > daily meal budget?

A car would be a terrible nuisance in Rome and Florence, and cannot even
enter in Venice. If you are going only to these cities, and don't
anticipate meandering through the countryside, I would suggest using the
train. These five cities are more than sufficient to occupy your time.
If you want to also meander through the countryside, you might want to
consider renting a car when you leave Perugia and dropping it on arrival
in Florence, taking a nice roundabout road to get there, and maybe
visiting Siena by car before going to Florence.

All of these cities, with the exception of Siena, are easily reached by
train. To visit Siena by public transport, you would be better to take a
bus from Florence. To go from Siena to Venice, you could take a bus
either back to Florence, or to Arezzo, which is also worth a visit.

I live in Italy and travel fairly often by train. I never travel first
class unless second class is too crowded (meaning I can't get a seat, or
my party can't find seats together, or there are no non-smoking seats).
The only advantage of first class to my mind is that it almost never is
full. If you want to spend extra money for comfort, spend it on
second-class seats in Eurostar trains instead of first class in
lower-cost trains.

I don't know what your dining standards are, but you can get a very nice
meal in most places for 30-40 euros per person, which means a first and
second course with beverages. I wouldn't want to eat such a large meal
twice in one day, and even for the main meal, my husband and I usually
split either the first or second course. For the other meal, we might
order just a pizza and beverage, and maybe split a salad, which should
come to about 12-15 euros per person. Breakfast is often included at
hotels, but if it isn't, count on 1.50 for cappucino and pastry. For my
husband and me, 60 euros per day for the two of us would be more than
sufficient. Usually we spend even less.

Barbara

paulfriedman

"Dominik" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > Hi all,
    > We plan to make a 2-week tour of Italy in May with a following
    > preliminary plan: Rome - Perugia - Florence - Siene - Venice - back to
Rome.
    > Which would be the best to go with, rent a car, or stick to rail? Does
    > anyone have any experience with rail travel, and the difference in
    > between 1st/2nd class? Also, what would be a safe consideration for a
    > daily meal budget?
    > Thanks a lot,
    > Dominik


Not that you asked , but that's a lot to see in only two weeks.

Neither Perugia nor Siena are particularly well served by trains. You can,
of course, get there and back, but the service is infrequent. Also, the
Siena train station is not conveniently located.

2nd Class is just fine -- by the way, Siena is serviced only (I think) by
2nd class only trains. The major advantage of 1st class is less crowding and
often more room for your luggage. You should consider taking the bus service
from Florence to Siena and back. Faster than the train, better station
location in Siena. The Florence stop is located quite close to the main
train station.

For transit on the main lines, I suggest you option seat reservations
whether or not they are required.

Meal budget? Impossible to determine. When I travel with my wife (who likes
good food in nice places) it costs us about $50/person/day. When I travel by
myself the cost is about $15/day.

Paul

Jenn

    > Dominik wrote:
    > >
    > > Hi all,
    > >
    > > We plan to make a 2-week tour of Italy in May with a following
    > > preliminary plan: Rome - Perugia - Florence - Siene - Venice - back to Rome.
    > >
    > > Which would be the best to go with, rent a car, or stick to rail? Does
    > > anyone have any experience with rail travel, and the difference in
    > > between 1st/2nd class? Also, what would be a safe consideration for a
    > > daily meal budget?
    >


way too much for my tastes -- I wouldn't tackle this in 3 weeks. BUT if
you plan to really hit the big 3 -- then TRAIN is the way -- cars are
annoying in cities. You could then do a day trip from florence to siena
by bus and bag perugia. It would be better IMHO to pick Rome and then
spend a week with a car exploring Tuscany -- but that would be my trip
not yours.

Cb

I would agree that parking would be extremely difficult in Florence, Rome
and Venice (impossible), however I don't think that should discourage you
from having a car. I would not forego the convenience and flexibility of
having an automobile and turning off and stopping wherever and whenever you
wanted.

A strategy that I pursued and which worked out well for me was this- I
drove the car and parked in a town not too far from the destination and then
took the train in. For example, in Venice I parked the car in Verona and
trained it in, while on the way to Rome, I parked it in Orvieto. You could
probably find something similar near Florence. In these smaller towns on the
outskirts, you can usually find free parking without any problem. This
assumes that you are not going to spend a lot of time in the "big city"
because if you are, then the car is just sitting idle on the outskirts and
you are just wasting money.

This is probably a matter of personal preference but some of the wonderful
surprises I've had are those unexpected gems that you discover while
driving. Besides, I'd rather drive than be stuck in a boxcar, but then
again, the train is wonderful if you want to get some sleep while going on
an overnight run someplace and so there is no ONE answer that will please
everyone.

"Dominik" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > Hi all,
    > We plan to make a 2-week tour of Italy in May with a following
    > preliminary plan: Rome - Perugia - Florence - Siene - Venice - back to
Rome.
    > Which would be the best to go with, rent a car, or stick to rail? Does
    > anyone have any experience with rail travel, and the difference in
    > between 1st/2nd class? Also, what would be a safe consideration for a
    > daily meal budget?
    > Thanks a lot,
    > Dominik

Ken Blake

In [email protected], Dominik wrote:

    > Hi all,
    > We plan to make a 2-week tour of Italy in May with a following
    > preliminary plan: Rome - Perugia - Florence - Siene - Venice -
back
    > to Rome.


Instead of going back home from Rome, why not fly home out of
Venice or Milan? Venice may cost more, but Milan probably won't.


    > Which would be the best to go with, rent a car, or stick to
rail?


Train (maybe bus to Siena). A car is useless in the cities,
presents major problems parking it, and will turn out to less
convenient--a burden--than the train.


    > Does
    > anyone have any experience with rail travel, and the difference
in
    > between 1st/2nd class?


Second class is fine. First class is not worth the substantial
extra expense, in my view.


    > Also, what would be a safe consideration for a
    > daily meal budget?


There's no answer to this question. You can spend almost as
little or as much as you want. It depends on your appetite, your
taste, whether you want simple meals or fancy ones, whether you
drink cheap wines or great ones, etc.

--
Ken Blake
Please reply to the newsgroup

Jenn

In article ,
"cb" wrote:

    > I would agree that parking would be extremely difficult in Florence, Rome
    > and Venice (impossible), however I don't think that should discourage you
    > from having a car. I would not forego the convenience and flexibility of
    > having an automobile and turning off and stopping wherever and whenever you
    > wanted
    >
    > A strategy that I pursued and which worked out well for me was this- I
    > drove the car and parked in a town not too far from the destination and then
    > took the train in. For example, in Venice I parked the car in Verona and
    > trained it in, while on the way to Rome, I parked it in Orvieto. You could
    > probably find something similar near Florence. In these smaller towns on the
    > outskirts, you can usually find free parking without any problem. This
    > assumes that you are not going to spend a lot of time in the "big city"
    > because if you are, then the car is just sitting idle on the outskirts and
    > you are just wasting money.

And you think it is 'convenient' to park in Orvieto to see Rome? Three
big cities in two weeks -- in each of which it is incredibly difficult
to park -- and hellish to commute in from great distances where there is
parking.


    >
    > This is probably a matter of personal preference but some of the wonderful
    > surprises I've had are those unexpected gems that you discover while
    > driving. Besides, I'd rather drive than be stuck in a boxcar, but then
    > again, the train is wonderful if you want to get some sleep while going on
    > an overnight run someplace and so there is no ONE answer that will please
    > everyone.

well sure -- a car is great if you are wandering the byways -- can't be
beat -- but on this overstuffed hurry up trip there is hardly time for
discovering little treasures --

a car would IMHO and with great experience of having a car in Italy be a
very bad idea for this trip

Mason Barge

On Mon, 21 Apr 2003 19:46:51 GMT, Dominik wrote:

    >Hi all,
    >We plan to make a 2-week tour of Italy in May with a following
    >preliminary plan: Rome - Perugia - Florence - Siene - Venice - back to Rome.
    >Which would be the best to go with, rent a car, or stick to rail? Does
    >anyone have any experience with rail travel, and the difference in
    >between 1st/2nd class? Also, what would be a safe consideration for a
    >daily meal budget?
    >Thanks a lot,
    >Dominik

1. I would pick up a car at the Rome airport (you'll pay about $30 more for
airport pickup and worth every penny IMO) and drive to Venice, stopping at the
places you mention. Parking will be a bit of a hassle/expense in Firenze but it
can be done -- I would leave my car at a major parking lot probably a long walk
or taxi ride from the hotel. There is a good parking lot at Piazza della
Liberta for E15 per day. (I swear, I would drive directly there and get a cab
to my hotel if I were staying in the city.) You can probably get a better deal
farther out of town. Parking in Siena and Perugia is good by Italian standards,
i.e. only a minor nightmare.

You get a monumental price break at a one-weel car rental; renting a car for
one week is generally almost the same base rate as renting a car for one day,
although the insurance is per diem. To get the most out of your car rental,
consider visiting at least one hill town (e.g. Montepulicano or Cortona) in
Tuscany, and you might want to approach Venice via the Brenta Canal.

2. Drop off the car in Venice and do your Venice and Rome time. Take the train
back to Rome.

3. People will advise against seeing so much in two weeks, but I'm sympathetic.
I would think that, if you like to travel hard, four nights in Rome, three
nights in Venice, and a week exploring Tuscany would be a great trip.

4. Travel second-class on the trains.

5. Daily food budget for me:

$5 breakfast at the hotel (often required), or if it's optional, $2 for a
standup coffee and pasty in a local spot. Okay, $3, that pastry was too good to
just have one.

$2 for another delicious Italian coffee at 10.

$5 for a sandwich and drink from a streetside stand, eaten outside. Stay away
from the glitzy looking places and you will have something utterly delicious.
Optional: $10 for a plate of pasta or pizza and a glass of wine.

$2 for a bottle of water.

$20-$30 for a great dinner.

So I would say $35-50 per day per person for food.
--
"If this is coffee, please bring me some tea. If this is tea, please bring me some coffee."
- Abraham Lincoln

Cb

I understand your point but I totally disagree. I have actually tried this
strategy and it worked really well. You claim that a car would set you back
but I think it's exactly the opposite. The vehicle gives you the flexibility
of going whenever you want and not being bound by train schedules.

In terms of parking in Orvieto to see Rome, I DID NOT commute from Orvieto
to Rome but I left the car in Orvieto and spent 3 nights in Rome, where you
don't need car. We could go around in circles on this one but it boils down
to personal preference. If I were to do it over again, I would still take
the car.


"Jenn" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > In article ,
    > "cb" wrote:
    > > I would agree that parking would be extremely difficult in Florence,
Rome
    > > and Venice (impossible), however I don't think that should discourage
you
    > > from having a car. I would not forego the convenience and flexibility of
    > > having an automobile and turning off and stopping wherever and whenever
you
    > > wanted
    > >
    > > A strategy that I pursued and which worked out well for me was this- I
    > > drove the car and parked in a town not too far from the destination and
then
    > > took the train in. For example, in Venice I parked the car in Verona and
    > > trained it in, while on the way to Rome, I parked it in Orvieto. You
could
    > > probably find something similar near Florence. In these smaller towns on
the
    > > outskirts, you can usually find free parking without any problem. This
    > > assumes that you are not going to spend a lot of time in the "big city"
    > > because if you are, then the car is just sitting idle on the outskirts
and
    > > you are just wasting money.
    > And you think it is 'convenient' to park in Orvieto to see Rome? Three
    > big cities in two weeks -- in each of which it is incredibly difficult
    > to park -- and hellish to commute in from great distances where there is
    > parking.
    > >
    > > This is probably a matter of personal preference but some of the
wonderful
    > > surprises I've had are those unexpected gems that you discover while
    > > driving. Besides, I'd rather drive than be stuck in a boxcar, but then
    > > again, the train is wonderful if you want to get some sleep while going
on
    > > an overnight run someplace and so there is no ONE answer that will
please
    > > everyone.
    > well sure -- a car is great if you are wandering the byways -- can't be
    > beat -- but on this overstuffed hurry up trip there is hardly time for
    > discovering little treasures --
    > a car would IMHO and with great experience of having a car in Italy be a
    > very bad idea for this trip

Luca Logi

Mason Barge wrote:

    > There is a good parking lot at Piazza della Liberta for E15 per day. (I
    > swear, I would drive directly there and get a cab to my hotel if I were
    > staying in the city.) You can probably get a better deal farther out of
    > town.

Unless your hotel finds you a better deal, I'd say you cannot get better
than the Piazza della Libertà (or "Parterre") underground parking lot.

--
Luca Logi - Firenze - Italy e-mail: [email protected]

Barbara Vaughan

[email protected] wrote:
    >
    > "Dominik" wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > > Hi all,
    > >
    > > We plan to make a 2-week tour of Italy in May with a following
    > > preliminary plan: Rome - Perugia - Florence - Siene - Venice - back to
    > Rome.
    > >
    > > Which would be the best to go with, rent a car, or stick to rail? Does
    > > anyone have any experience with rail travel, and the difference in
    > > between 1st/2nd class? Also, what would be a safe consideration for a
    > > daily meal budget?

[snip]

    > Neither Perugia nor Siena are particularly well served by trains. You can,
    > of course, get there and back, but the service is infrequent. Also, the
    > Siena train station is not conveniently located.

The service from Rome to Perugia is not what I would call infrequent.
There are trains about once an hour, some direct and some of them
changing at Foligno. Service from Perugia to Florence is a little more
infrequent, but there are 12 trains daily, with some direct and some
changing at Terontola.

The problem with Siena is more the location of the train station.

Barbara



    >
    > 2nd Class is just fine -- by the way, Siena is serviced only (I think) by
    > 2nd class only trains. The major advantage of 1st class is less crowding and
    > often more room for your luggage. You should consider taking the bus service
    > from Florence to Siena and back. Faster than the train, better station
    > location in Siena. The Florence stop is located quite close to the main
    > train station.
    >
    > For transit on the main lines, I suggest you option seat reservations
    > whether or not they are required.
    >
    > Meal budget? Impossible to determine. When I travel with my wife (who likes
    > good food in nice places) it costs us about $50/person/day. When I travel by
    > myself the cost is about $15/day.
    >
    > Paul

Mason Barge

On Mon, 21 Apr 2003 21:39:45 GMT, "cb" wrote:

    >I would agree that parking would be extremely difficult in Florence, Rome
    >and Venice (impossible),

Parking in Venice is a piece of cake, although expensive.
--
"If this is coffee, please bring me some tea. If this is tea, please bring me some coffee."
- Abraham Lincoln

Mason Barge

On Tue, 22 Apr 2003 01:27:50 +0200, [email protected] (Luca Logi) wrote:

    >Mason Barge wrote:
    >> There is a good parking lot at Piazza della Liberta for E15 per day. (I
    >> swear, I would drive directly there and get a cab to my hotel if I were
    >> staying in the city.) You can probably get a better deal farther out of
    >> town.
    >Unless your hotel finds you a better deal, I'd say you cannot get better
    >than the Piazza della Libertà (or "Parterre") underground parking lot.

Just for my information, if you stayed in a hotel in the Oltrarno could you get
a better deal on parking, or at least a place easier to find for a confused
American tourist?
--
"If this is coffee, please bring me some tea. If this is tea, please bring me some coffee."
- Abraham Lincoln

Luca Logi

Mason Barge wrote:

    > Just for my information, if you stayed in a hotel in the Oltrarno could
    > you get a better deal on parking, or at least a place easier to find for a
    > confused American tourist?


http://www.firenzeparcheggi.it/defaulteng.htm

Clicking on "special rates" I see that the "Porta Romana / Piazza della
Calza" parking has a special euro 15/day rate for people spending at
least a night in a Florence hotel. This would be probably the most
convenient place for Oltrarno, but is probably one of the more confusing
parking areas in the continent.

The parking area is along the walls (on the other side of viale
Petrarca), you drive in from piazza della Calza (Porta Romana) and you
drive out from piazza Tasso, half a km. away (when you get out, you have
to drive all along the piazza). You can walk out at both places (the
toll booth is at piazza Tasso), and if you park in the mid it may get a
fairly long walk. Do not park in the clearly marked reserved places.

--
Luca Logi - Firenze - Italy e-mail: [email protected]

Jenn

In article ,
Mason Barge wrote:

    > On Tue, 22 Apr 2003 01:27:50 +0200, [email protected] (Luca Logi) wrote:
    >
    > >Mason Barge wrote:
    > >
    > >> There is a good parking lot at Piazza della Liberta for E15 per day. (I
    > >> swear, I would drive directly there and get a cab to my hotel if I were
    > >> staying in the city.) You can probably get a better deal farther out of
    > >> town.
    > >
    > >Unless your hotel finds you a better deal, I'd say you cannot get better
    > >than the Piazza della Libertà (or "Parterre") underground parking lot.
    >
    > Just for my information, if you stayed in a hotel in the Oltrarno could you
    > get
    > a better deal on parking, or at least a place easier to find for a confused
    > American tourist?


I doubt it -- it is as crowded and I have not seen hotels there with
parking. The public lots e.g. Porta Romana, are very expensive