Moscow: dangerous place?
Mar 29th 2004, 2:35 pm
#16
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Moscow: dangerous place?
"Markku Grönroos" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> "The Black Monk" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> > The Kremlin is about as significant a place of historical interest as
> > it gets, north of the Mediteranian.
> >
>
> > Tratkyakov Gallery is breathtaking, the equal of most any art museum
> > found in the west.
> >
> >
> > Prices are comparable to those in the West for Westerners (dirt cheap
> > for locals - have a local friend buy your tickets)
> >
> Are such tickets any good in the hands of Western tourists ?
Why wouldn't they be?
> What about one doesn't have a local friend around ?
Then expect to pay about as much as you owuld in the West for
comparable museums. The rate for Russians to go to such museums is
much lower than the West.
I forgot to mention, in addition to museums and sites, in Russia if
you don't go in August-September you can see world class ballet,
opera, or theater much much more cheaply than in the West.
> Do they have separate prices for cats and dogs ?
I'm not familiar with such customs. Is this typical of your native,
exotic Finland?
> > > Additionally, you have the Russians themselves to put up with -- a
> ruder,
> > > surlier, and more miserable bunch of people would be hard to find
> IMNSHO.
> >
> > Never experienced that. Though they won't give you fake
> > have-a-nice-day smiles all the time.
> >
> Sheremetyevo is an excellent window to see Russian authority at work. Well,
> it is exotic and it is typically RUDE for sure. More than once I have
> witnessed their inability to understand that passengers are not deaf. In my
> opinion too Russia must be one of those lesser appealing countries to spend
> a holiday.
Yes, the airport is a great way to judge a country.
BM
> "The Black Monk" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> > The Kremlin is about as significant a place of historical interest as
> > it gets, north of the Mediteranian.
> >
>
> > Tratkyakov Gallery is breathtaking, the equal of most any art museum
> > found in the west.
> >
> >
> > Prices are comparable to those in the West for Westerners (dirt cheap
> > for locals - have a local friend buy your tickets)
> >
> Are such tickets any good in the hands of Western tourists ?
Why wouldn't they be?
> What about one doesn't have a local friend around ?
Then expect to pay about as much as you owuld in the West for
comparable museums. The rate for Russians to go to such museums is
much lower than the West.
I forgot to mention, in addition to museums and sites, in Russia if
you don't go in August-September you can see world class ballet,
opera, or theater much much more cheaply than in the West.
> Do they have separate prices for cats and dogs ?
I'm not familiar with such customs. Is this typical of your native,
exotic Finland?
> > > Additionally, you have the Russians themselves to put up with -- a
> ruder,
> > > surlier, and more miserable bunch of people would be hard to find
> IMNSHO.
> >
> > Never experienced that. Though they won't give you fake
> > have-a-nice-day smiles all the time.
> >
> Sheremetyevo is an excellent window to see Russian authority at work. Well,
> it is exotic and it is typically RUDE for sure. More than once I have
> witnessed their inability to understand that passengers are not deaf. In my
> opinion too Russia must be one of those lesser appealing countries to spend
> a holiday.
Yes, the airport is a great way to judge a country.
BM
Mar 29th 2004, 6:35 pm
#17
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Moscow: dangerous place?
[email protected] (The Black Monk) wrote in message news:<[email protected]. com>...
> "Gregory Morrow" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected] link.net>...
> > bruce phipps wrote:
> Prices are comparable to those in the West for Westerners (dirt cheap
> for locals - have a local friend buy your tickets)
You can always give it a shot, but let me warn you that they take they
responibility for not allowing tourists at the lower rate real
serious. Don't expect to succeed unless you speak an excellent Russian
and don't get upset when the guards putting you straight when they
disclose your attempt for a good bargain
Jan
> "Gregory Morrow" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected] link.net>...
> > bruce phipps wrote:
> Prices are comparable to those in the West for Westerners (dirt cheap
> for locals - have a local friend buy your tickets)
You can always give it a shot, but let me warn you that they take they
responibility for not allowing tourists at the lower rate real
serious. Don't expect to succeed unless you speak an excellent Russian
and don't get upset when the guards putting you straight when they
disclose your attempt for a good bargain
Jan
Mar 29th 2004, 9:25 pm
#18
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Moscow: dangerous place?
"The Black Monk" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Markku Grönroos" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> > "The Black Monk" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> > >
> > > The Kremlin is about as significant a place of historical interest as
> > > it gets, north of the Mediteranian.
> > >
> >
> > > Tratkyakov Gallery is breathtaking, the equal of most any art museum
> > > found in the west.
> > >
> > >
> > > Prices are comparable to those in the West for Westerners (dirt cheap
> > > for locals - have a local friend buy your tickets)
> > >
> > Are such tickets any good in the hands of Western tourists ?
> Why wouldn't they be?
If there is a "tourist" price implemented, can you really escape it just by
letting someone else to buy a ticket of the "local" fare? Doesn't make any
sense to me. And even if you can save some money in this fashion it is
bloody clumsy to do so anyways.
news:[email protected]...
> "Markku Grönroos" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> > "The Black Monk" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> > >
> > > The Kremlin is about as significant a place of historical interest as
> > > it gets, north of the Mediteranian.
> > >
> >
> > > Tratkyakov Gallery is breathtaking, the equal of most any art museum
> > > found in the west.
> > >
> > >
> > > Prices are comparable to those in the West for Westerners (dirt cheap
> > > for locals - have a local friend buy your tickets)
> > >
> > Are such tickets any good in the hands of Western tourists ?
> Why wouldn't they be?
If there is a "tourist" price implemented, can you really escape it just by
letting someone else to buy a ticket of the "local" fare? Doesn't make any
sense to me. And even if you can save some money in this fashion it is
bloody clumsy to do so anyways.
Mar 29th 2004, 9:44 pm
#19
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Moscow: dangerous place?
The Black Monk wrote:
> "Markku Grönroos" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
>
>>"The Black Monk" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>news:[email protected]...
>>>The Kremlin is about as significant a place of historical interest as
>>>it gets, north of the Mediteranian.
>>
>>>Tratkyakov Gallery is breathtaking, the equal of most any art museum
>>>found in the west.
>>>Prices are comparable to those in the West for Westerners (dirt cheap
>>>for locals - have a local friend buy your tickets)
>>Are such tickets any good in the hands of Western tourists ?
>
>
> Why wouldn't they be?
>
>
>>What about one doesn't have a local friend around ?
>
>
> Then expect to pay about as much as you owuld in the West for
> comparable museums. The rate for Russians to go to such museums is
> much lower than the West.
>
> I forgot to mention, in addition to museums and sites, in Russia if
> you don't go in August-September you can see world class ballet,
> opera, or theater much much more cheaply than in the West.
On my last visit we enjoyed an excellent classical concert in the Moscow
conservatorium. Our tickets cost about $3, i.e. about as much as the
sandwiches that we bought in the bistro during the break.
Bjorn
> "Markku Grönroos" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
>
>>"The Black Monk" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>news:[email protected]...
>>>The Kremlin is about as significant a place of historical interest as
>>>it gets, north of the Mediteranian.
>>
>>>Tratkyakov Gallery is breathtaking, the equal of most any art museum
>>>found in the west.
>>>Prices are comparable to those in the West for Westerners (dirt cheap
>>>for locals - have a local friend buy your tickets)
>>Are such tickets any good in the hands of Western tourists ?
>
>
> Why wouldn't they be?
>
>
>>What about one doesn't have a local friend around ?
>
>
> Then expect to pay about as much as you owuld in the West for
> comparable museums. The rate for Russians to go to such museums is
> much lower than the West.
>
> I forgot to mention, in addition to museums and sites, in Russia if
> you don't go in August-September you can see world class ballet,
> opera, or theater much much more cheaply than in the West.
On my last visit we enjoyed an excellent classical concert in the Moscow
conservatorium. Our tickets cost about $3, i.e. about as much as the
sandwiches that we bought in the bistro during the break.
Bjorn
Mar 29th 2004, 9:48 pm
#20
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Moscow: dangerous place?
?ystein wrote:
> [email protected] (The Black Monk) wrote in message news:<[email protected]. com>...
>
>>"Gregory Morrow" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected] link.net>...
>>>bruce phipps wrote:
>
>
>>Prices are comparable to those in the West for Westerners (dirt cheap
>>for locals - have a local friend buy your tickets)
>
> You can always give it a shot, but let me warn you that they take they
> responibility for not allowing tourists at the lower rate real
> serious. Don't expect to succeed unless you speak an excellent Russian
> and don't get upset when the guards putting you straight when they
> disclose your attempt for a good bargain
Based on my experience, you seem to have about a 50% chance of
succeeding. If you don't speak perfect russian, the trick is to keep
completely silent and let your friend handle everything. In my case,
this has worked e.g. in the Tretyakov but failed at the Kremlin.
Bjorn
> [email protected] (The Black Monk) wrote in message news:<[email protected]. com>...
>
>>"Gregory Morrow" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected] link.net>...
>>>bruce phipps wrote:
>
>
>>Prices are comparable to those in the West for Westerners (dirt cheap
>>for locals - have a local friend buy your tickets)
>
> You can always give it a shot, but let me warn you that they take they
> responibility for not allowing tourists at the lower rate real
> serious. Don't expect to succeed unless you speak an excellent Russian
> and don't get upset when the guards putting you straight when they
> disclose your attempt for a good bargain
Based on my experience, you seem to have about a 50% chance of
succeeding. If you don't speak perfect russian, the trick is to keep
completely silent and let your friend handle everything. In my case,
this has worked e.g. in the Tretyakov but failed at the Kremlin.
Bjorn
Mar 29th 2004, 9:52 pm
#21
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Moscow: dangerous place?
Giacomo www.discover.it wrote:
>
>
> Björn Olsson wrote:
>
>> Giacomo www.discover.it wrote:
>>> [email protected] wrote:
>>>>> I was planning a vacation in Moscow in September. But after reading
>>>>> the UK travel guide book "Rough Guide to Moscow" I am not so sure.
>>>>> The guide paints a rather pessimistic picture of Moscow:
>>>> I am certainly biased as I am from Russia (St-Petersburg), but still,
>>>> I cannot help this weird feeling that Western travel books are not
>>>> fair to Russia... From what I've seen, every western city of any
>>>> considerable size, both in Europe and in US (where I live now), is
>>>> way-way more dangerous than Moscow or St-Petersburg. I was robbed on
>>>> my 3 day stay in Barcelona - such a thing never happened in my 27
>>>> years in Russia. I mean, look at all these graffiti, all this
>>>> riff-raff around train stations and in downdowns, littered subways
>>>> full of drug addicts - you won't see a tenth of it in Russia's major
>>>> cities, beleive me.
>>>> The only thing that rings a bell in your list is that foreign tourists
>>>> do have to pay higher rates for museum tickets (not 10 times, but 2-3
>>>> times is a norm). So better hire a local guide (it is a good idea
>>>> anyway).
>>> Misha, I was happy about your report. Was going to travel to Moscow
>>> more quietly... until I read that last sentence!
>>> What ?????
>>> Hire a local guide?
>>> Yours is not the first suggestion to hire a local guide in Russia
>>> that I read.
>>> I have travelled a lot. I never had any reason to hire a local guide.
>>> Not even in Tunisia or Turkey, which I travelled by bus. I live in
>>> the center of Rome. I see hundreds of tourists everyday. They don't
>>> have a local guide. Even big groups of 50 are usually guided by
>>> someone from their country.
>> You can do fine in Moscow without a guide too. You just need to
>> prepare a little by learning and practicing the cyrillic alphabet (so
>> that you can read signs, for example in the subway) and studying some
>> basic facts about public transport etc. You also need (just like in
>> Tunisia) to be able to ignore for example pushy taxi drivers at the
>> airport, and simply head for you chosen mode of transport, no matter
>> how they are trying to convince you to do otherwise.
>>> Usually journalists or workers staying in war areas like Iraq and
>>> Afghanistan have to hire a local guide. I know a few that were there.
>>> The need for a local guide makes me think that maybe the guide is not
>>> completely off track.
>>> I was never in Russia. I want to go there, but I'd like to know what
>>> will expect me. I really dislike to read such opposite views about
>>> the same matter.
>> People are different and perceive the very same things very differently.
>>> It is like the story of sharks. Some people say the risk that they
>>> attack men is so low that is easier to be struck by a lightning
>>> trekking in the Alps, than being bitten by a shark even when swimming
>>> in areas full of them. Then i read reports of a man lost in the
>>> Caribbean on a small safety boat who had sharks try to climb into his
>>> boat to eat him up ( Garcia Marquez). I also read news of a shipwreck
>>> where half of the people (50%) got killed by sharks.
>>> Where is the truth?
>> The truth is that some people will focus in the fact that sharks
>> almost never attack humans, while other people will focus on the fact
>> that some humans do get attacked by sharks. It's somewhat like the
>> "is the glass half empty or half full" issue.
>>> Why aren't safety recommendations so little scientific and
>>> statistical? Why is there on such important matters the chance to say
>>> all and the opposite of it?
>>> Why can't an uninformed third party (like me) make up his mind
>>> between such opposite points of view?
>> There's only one way to solve that: Visit Russia and get your own
>> impressions.
>> Bjorn
>
>
> Bjorn, my impression is exactly what I'd never trust. 1 person does not
> make statistics. I am a beeter judge now, with mind more open, than
> after having been there. I don't want to trust your or my opinion.
>
> I'd like the opinion of an ebassy worker who can compare several capital
> cities using data on the number of problems reported in relationship
> with number of visitors, a travel agent who sends many people to Russia
> and to other destinations and gets their feedback...
>
> The fact that I may be robbed or killed in Moscow would probably not
> change staistical figures, but it would definitely change my opinion (
> if I stil have one ... :-) )
>
> I only correct way to extimate risk is statistical, that is why I'd walk
> downtown New York or Madrid without fear of terorists, but would not do
> the same downtown Tel Aviv... At lest
But the number of people killed by terrorist attacks in recent years is
higher in both NY and Madrid than in Tel Aviv. In general, donwtown Tel
Aviv is safer than most cities of comparable size, since the crime rate
is low.
Bjorn
>
>
> Björn Olsson wrote:
>
>> Giacomo www.discover.it wrote:
>>> [email protected] wrote:
>>>>> I was planning a vacation in Moscow in September. But after reading
>>>>> the UK travel guide book "Rough Guide to Moscow" I am not so sure.
>>>>> The guide paints a rather pessimistic picture of Moscow:
>>>> I am certainly biased as I am from Russia (St-Petersburg), but still,
>>>> I cannot help this weird feeling that Western travel books are not
>>>> fair to Russia... From what I've seen, every western city of any
>>>> considerable size, both in Europe and in US (where I live now), is
>>>> way-way more dangerous than Moscow or St-Petersburg. I was robbed on
>>>> my 3 day stay in Barcelona - such a thing never happened in my 27
>>>> years in Russia. I mean, look at all these graffiti, all this
>>>> riff-raff around train stations and in downdowns, littered subways
>>>> full of drug addicts - you won't see a tenth of it in Russia's major
>>>> cities, beleive me.
>>>> The only thing that rings a bell in your list is that foreign tourists
>>>> do have to pay higher rates for museum tickets (not 10 times, but 2-3
>>>> times is a norm). So better hire a local guide (it is a good idea
>>>> anyway).
>>> Misha, I was happy about your report. Was going to travel to Moscow
>>> more quietly... until I read that last sentence!
>>> What ?????
>>> Hire a local guide?
>>> Yours is not the first suggestion to hire a local guide in Russia
>>> that I read.
>>> I have travelled a lot. I never had any reason to hire a local guide.
>>> Not even in Tunisia or Turkey, which I travelled by bus. I live in
>>> the center of Rome. I see hundreds of tourists everyday. They don't
>>> have a local guide. Even big groups of 50 are usually guided by
>>> someone from their country.
>> You can do fine in Moscow without a guide too. You just need to
>> prepare a little by learning and practicing the cyrillic alphabet (so
>> that you can read signs, for example in the subway) and studying some
>> basic facts about public transport etc. You also need (just like in
>> Tunisia) to be able to ignore for example pushy taxi drivers at the
>> airport, and simply head for you chosen mode of transport, no matter
>> how they are trying to convince you to do otherwise.
>>> Usually journalists or workers staying in war areas like Iraq and
>>> Afghanistan have to hire a local guide. I know a few that were there.
>>> The need for a local guide makes me think that maybe the guide is not
>>> completely off track.
>>> I was never in Russia. I want to go there, but I'd like to know what
>>> will expect me. I really dislike to read such opposite views about
>>> the same matter.
>> People are different and perceive the very same things very differently.
>>> It is like the story of sharks. Some people say the risk that they
>>> attack men is so low that is easier to be struck by a lightning
>>> trekking in the Alps, than being bitten by a shark even when swimming
>>> in areas full of them. Then i read reports of a man lost in the
>>> Caribbean on a small safety boat who had sharks try to climb into his
>>> boat to eat him up ( Garcia Marquez). I also read news of a shipwreck
>>> where half of the people (50%) got killed by sharks.
>>> Where is the truth?
>> The truth is that some people will focus in the fact that sharks
>> almost never attack humans, while other people will focus on the fact
>> that some humans do get attacked by sharks. It's somewhat like the
>> "is the glass half empty or half full" issue.
>>> Why aren't safety recommendations so little scientific and
>>> statistical? Why is there on such important matters the chance to say
>>> all and the opposite of it?
>>> Why can't an uninformed third party (like me) make up his mind
>>> between such opposite points of view?
>> There's only one way to solve that: Visit Russia and get your own
>> impressions.
>> Bjorn
>
>
> Bjorn, my impression is exactly what I'd never trust. 1 person does not
> make statistics. I am a beeter judge now, with mind more open, than
> after having been there. I don't want to trust your or my opinion.
>
> I'd like the opinion of an ebassy worker who can compare several capital
> cities using data on the number of problems reported in relationship
> with number of visitors, a travel agent who sends many people to Russia
> and to other destinations and gets their feedback...
>
> The fact that I may be robbed or killed in Moscow would probably not
> change staistical figures, but it would definitely change my opinion (
> if I stil have one ... :-) )
>
> I only correct way to extimate risk is statistical, that is why I'd walk
> downtown New York or Madrid without fear of terorists, but would not do
> the same downtown Tel Aviv... At lest
But the number of people killed by terrorist attacks in recent years is
higher in both NY and Madrid than in Tel Aviv. In general, donwtown Tel
Aviv is safer than most cities of comparable size, since the crime rate
is low.
Bjorn
Mar 29th 2004, 11:46 pm
#22
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Moscow: dangerous place?
Markku Grönroos <[email protected]> wrote:
> <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > > I was planning a vacation in Moscow in September. But after reading
> > > the UK travel guide book "Rough Guide to Moscow" I am not so sure.
> > > The guide paints a rather pessimistic picture of Moscow:
> >
> > I am certainly biased as I am from Russia (St-Petersburg), but still,
> > I cannot help this weird feeling that Western travel books are not
> > fair to Russia... From what I've seen, every western city of any
> > considerable size, both in Europe and in US (where I live now), is
> > way-way more dangerous than Moscow or St-Petersburg. I was robbed on
> > my 3 day stay in Barcelona - such a thing never happened in my 27
> > years in Russia. I mean, look at all these graffiti, all this
> Finnish MP Tony Halme was also attacked by half a dozen Moroccan rascals in
> Barcelona. He was stabbed a couple of times but he managed to broke many
> bones of the enemy and to catch most of them (a couple of them were able to
> run away).
It all comes down to if you are scared, stay home. I spent a couple
weeks in Russia in 1992 when things were far more desperate. It is
probably still one of the biggest Tourist destinations in the world.
People come there from all over the world besides the Soviet Union.
The floor lady in the Soviet style hotel I was in took care of everything
and not much if anything made it by her. A few rubles a day made a
difference. Went to Afgan war veterans night at the Bolshoi Ballet.
Met the mayor of Moscow who tried to sell me an apartment. Would not
of missed this trip for the world...
> <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > > I was planning a vacation in Moscow in September. But after reading
> > > the UK travel guide book "Rough Guide to Moscow" I am not so sure.
> > > The guide paints a rather pessimistic picture of Moscow:
> >
> > I am certainly biased as I am from Russia (St-Petersburg), but still,
> > I cannot help this weird feeling that Western travel books are not
> > fair to Russia... From what I've seen, every western city of any
> > considerable size, both in Europe and in US (where I live now), is
> > way-way more dangerous than Moscow or St-Petersburg. I was robbed on
> > my 3 day stay in Barcelona - such a thing never happened in my 27
> > years in Russia. I mean, look at all these graffiti, all this
> Finnish MP Tony Halme was also attacked by half a dozen Moroccan rascals in
> Barcelona. He was stabbed a couple of times but he managed to broke many
> bones of the enemy and to catch most of them (a couple of them were able to
> run away).
It all comes down to if you are scared, stay home. I spent a couple
weeks in Russia in 1992 when things were far more desperate. It is
probably still one of the biggest Tourist destinations in the world.
People come there from all over the world besides the Soviet Union.
The floor lady in the Soviet style hotel I was in took care of everything
and not much if anything made it by her. A few rubles a day made a
difference. Went to Afgan war veterans night at the Bolshoi Ballet.
Met the mayor of Moscow who tried to sell me an apartment. Would not
of missed this trip for the world...
Mar 30th 2004, 5:29 am
#23
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Moscow: dangerous place?
"Markku Grönroos" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> "The Black Monk" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > "Markku Grönroos" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:<[email protected]>...
> > > "The Black Monk" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > > news:[email protected]...
> > > >
> > > > The Kremlin is about as significant a place of historical interest as
> > > > it gets, north of the Mediteranian.
> > > >
>
> > > > Tratkyakov Gallery is breathtaking, the equal of most any art museum
> > > > found in the west.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Prices are comparable to those in the West for Westerners (dirt cheap
> > > > for locals - have a local friend buy your tickets)
> > > >
> > > Are such tickets any good in the hands of Western tourists ?
> >
> > Why wouldn't they be?
> >
> If there is a "tourist" price implemented, can you really escape it just by
> letting someone else to buy a ticket of the "local" fare?
Sure. My wife usually buys my tickets. Once I did it - passing for
someone from Western Ukraine with some Russian grammatical mistakes
(CIS people pay Russian rates; buy Ukrainian is better than my decent
Russian). Although I was born in Chicago, I claimed to have forgotten
my Ukrainian passport, and started acting hostile when the woman
doubted my citizenship. There was no problem.
> Doesn't make any
> sense to me. And even if you can save some money in this fashion it is
> bloody clumsy to do so anyways.
It's not huge savings or anything, just a principle. My (distant)
relatives founded and built Moscow: why should I pay foreigner rates?
We lost a nice estate when the bolsheviks came, why not at the least
get what I can a little cheaper?
BM
> "The Black Monk" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > "Markku Grönroos" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:<[email protected]>...
> > > "The Black Monk" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > > news:[email protected]...
> > > >
> > > > The Kremlin is about as significant a place of historical interest as
> > > > it gets, north of the Mediteranian.
> > > >
>
> > > > Tratkyakov Gallery is breathtaking, the equal of most any art museum
> > > > found in the west.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Prices are comparable to those in the West for Westerners (dirt cheap
> > > > for locals - have a local friend buy your tickets)
> > > >
> > > Are such tickets any good in the hands of Western tourists ?
> >
> > Why wouldn't they be?
> >
> If there is a "tourist" price implemented, can you really escape it just by
> letting someone else to buy a ticket of the "local" fare?
Sure. My wife usually buys my tickets. Once I did it - passing for
someone from Western Ukraine with some Russian grammatical mistakes
(CIS people pay Russian rates; buy Ukrainian is better than my decent
Russian). Although I was born in Chicago, I claimed to have forgotten
my Ukrainian passport, and started acting hostile when the woman
doubted my citizenship. There was no problem.
> Doesn't make any
> sense to me. And even if you can save some money in this fashion it is
> bloody clumsy to do so anyways.
It's not huge savings or anything, just a principle. My (distant)
relatives founded and built Moscow: why should I pay foreigner rates?
We lost a nice estate when the bolsheviks came, why not at the least
get what I can a little cheaper?
BM
Mar 30th 2004, 5:35 am
#24
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Moscow: dangerous place?
Björn Olsson <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> The Black Monk wrote:
>
> > "Markku Grönroos" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> >
> >>"The Black Monk" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >>news:[email protected]...
> >>
> >>>The Kremlin is about as significant a place of historical interest as
> >>>it gets, north of the Mediteranian.
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>Tratkyakov Gallery is breathtaking, the equal of most any art museum
> >>>found in the west.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>Prices are comparable to those in the West for Westerners (dirt cheap
> >>>for locals - have a local friend buy your tickets)
> >>>
> >>
> >>Are such tickets any good in the hands of Western tourists ?
> >
> >
> > Why wouldn't they be?
> >
> >
> >>What about one doesn't have a local friend around ?
> >
> >
> > Then expect to pay about as much as you owuld in the West for
> > comparable museums. The rate for Russians to go to such museums is
> > much lower than the West.
> >
> > I forgot to mention, in addition to museums and sites, in Russia if
> > you don't go in August-September you can see world class ballet,
> > opera, or theater much much more cheaply than in the West.
>
> On my last visit we enjoyed an excellent classical concert in the Moscow
> conservatorium. Our tickets cost about $3,
My cousin studied there. Over the summer I took my mom to the ballet
next door to the Bolshoi. Tickets in the front row, right next to the
stage, were $15. This was a world-class performance that would have
cost, for such seats, perhaps $40-$50 in the USA.
> i.e. about as much as the
> sandwiches that we bought in the bistro during the break.
Yes, thoughts of salmon and champagne during intermission make me
nostalgic...
For those who can understand Russian, the theater scene is also first
rate.
BM
> Bjorn
> The Black Monk wrote:
>
> > "Markku Grönroos" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> >
> >>"The Black Monk" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >>news:[email protected]...
> >>
> >>>The Kremlin is about as significant a place of historical interest as
> >>>it gets, north of the Mediteranian.
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>Tratkyakov Gallery is breathtaking, the equal of most any art museum
> >>>found in the west.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>Prices are comparable to those in the West for Westerners (dirt cheap
> >>>for locals - have a local friend buy your tickets)
> >>>
> >>
> >>Are such tickets any good in the hands of Western tourists ?
> >
> >
> > Why wouldn't they be?
> >
> >
> >>What about one doesn't have a local friend around ?
> >
> >
> > Then expect to pay about as much as you owuld in the West for
> > comparable museums. The rate for Russians to go to such museums is
> > much lower than the West.
> >
> > I forgot to mention, in addition to museums and sites, in Russia if
> > you don't go in August-September you can see world class ballet,
> > opera, or theater much much more cheaply than in the West.
>
> On my last visit we enjoyed an excellent classical concert in the Moscow
> conservatorium. Our tickets cost about $3,
My cousin studied there. Over the summer I took my mom to the ballet
next door to the Bolshoi. Tickets in the front row, right next to the
stage, were $15. This was a world-class performance that would have
cost, for such seats, perhaps $40-$50 in the USA.
> i.e. about as much as the
> sandwiches that we bought in the bistro during the break.
Yes, thoughts of salmon and champagne during intermission make me
nostalgic...
For those who can understand Russian, the theater scene is also first
rate.
BM
> Bjorn
Mar 30th 2004, 6:32 am
#25
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Moscow: dangerous place?
Björn Olsson <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> ?ystein wrote:
>
> > [email protected] (The Black Monk) wrote in message news:<[email protected]. com>...
> >
> >>"Gregory Morrow" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected] link.net>...
> >>
> >>>bruce phipps wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Prices are comparable to those in the West for Westerners (dirt cheap
> >>for locals - have a local friend buy your tickets)
> >>
> >
> > You can always give it a shot, but let me warn you that they take they
> > responibility for not allowing tourists at the lower rate real
> > serious. Don't expect to succeed unless you speak an excellent Russian
> > and don't get upset when the guards putting you straight when they
> > disclose your attempt for a good bargain
>
> Based on my experience, you seem to have about a 50% chance of
> succeeding. If you don't speak perfect russian, the trick is to keep
> completely silent and let your friend handle everything. In my case,
> this has worked e.g. in the Tretyakov but failed at the Kremlin.
Thank you for kindly giving your comments Bjorn. My Russian friend has
told me they insisted that he was from Estonia and that he therefore
had to pay the price for foriegners even he is Russian citizen. I
guess this differs a lot. One thing you don't have to worry about is
that the huards is very serious about this part of their
jobdescription
Jan
> ?ystein wrote:
>
> > [email protected] (The Black Monk) wrote in message news:<[email protected]. com>...
> >
> >>"Gregory Morrow" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected] link.net>...
> >>
> >>>bruce phipps wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Prices are comparable to those in the West for Westerners (dirt cheap
> >>for locals - have a local friend buy your tickets)
> >>
> >
> > You can always give it a shot, but let me warn you that they take they
> > responibility for not allowing tourists at the lower rate real
> > serious. Don't expect to succeed unless you speak an excellent Russian
> > and don't get upset when the guards putting you straight when they
> > disclose your attempt for a good bargain
>
> Based on my experience, you seem to have about a 50% chance of
> succeeding. If you don't speak perfect russian, the trick is to keep
> completely silent and let your friend handle everything. In my case,
> this has worked e.g. in the Tretyakov but failed at the Kremlin.
Thank you for kindly giving your comments Bjorn. My Russian friend has
told me they insisted that he was from Estonia and that he therefore
had to pay the price for foriegners even he is Russian citizen. I
guess this differs a lot. One thing you don't have to worry about is
that the huards is very serious about this part of their
jobdescription
Jan
Mar 30th 2004, 6:03 pm
#26
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Moscow: dangerous place?
[email protected] (?ystein) wrote in message news:<[email protected]. com>...
> [email protected] (The Black Monk) wrote in message news:<[email protected]. com>...
> > "Gregory Morrow" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected] link.net>...
> > > bruce phipps wrote:
>
> > Prices are comparable to those in the West for Westerners (dirt cheap
> > for locals - have a local friend buy your tickets)
> >
> You can always give it a shot, but let me warn you that they take they
> responibility for not allowing tourists at the lower rate real
> serious. Don't expect to succeed unless you speak an excellent Russian
> and don't get upset when the guards putting you straight when they
> disclose your attempt for a good bargain
I think higher prices for foreigners are just. Wages in Europe are
about 10 times higher than in Russia.
Sergei
> [email protected] (The Black Monk) wrote in message news:<[email protected]. com>...
> > "Gregory Morrow" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected] link.net>...
> > > bruce phipps wrote:
>
> > Prices are comparable to those in the West for Westerners (dirt cheap
> > for locals - have a local friend buy your tickets)
> >
> You can always give it a shot, but let me warn you that they take they
> responibility for not allowing tourists at the lower rate real
> serious. Don't expect to succeed unless you speak an excellent Russian
> and don't get upset when the guards putting you straight when they
> disclose your attempt for a good bargain
I think higher prices for foreigners are just. Wages in Europe are
about 10 times higher than in Russia.
Sergei
Mar 30th 2004, 8:43 pm
#27
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Moscow: dangerous place?
bruce phipps schrieb:
> * Public transport from the airport is at best chaotic;
No. There might be traffic jam which will apply also for taxis.
> taxi services
> are mafia-run scam artists
Avoid these. Public buses and mini-buses are less than 1 $ in local
currency. There is a train from DME but not from SVO.
Regards, ULF
> * Public transport from the airport is at best chaotic;
No. There might be traffic jam which will apply also for taxis.
> taxi services
> are mafia-run scam artists
Avoid these. Public buses and mini-buses are less than 1 $ in local
currency. There is a train from DME but not from SVO.
Regards, ULF
Mar 30th 2004, 11:56 pm
#28
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Moscow: dangerous place?
"The Black Monk" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> My wife usually buys my tickets. Once I did it - passing for
> someone from Western Ukraine with some Russian grammatical mistakes
> (CIS people pay Russian rates; buy Ukrainian is better than my decent
> Russian).
People always tell me that I speak Russian with a Ukrainian accent, so I
never had any problems buying tickets for anything. I've also been told that
I look Ukrainian and it must be true, as I've had complete strangers walk up
to me on the street in New York and start speaking Russian.
> It's not huge savings or anything, just a principle. My (distant)
> relatives founded and built Moscow: why should I pay foreigner rates?
> We lost a nice estate when the bolsheviks came, why not at the least
> get what I can a little cheaper?
Executions, loss of property and sojourns in Siberia are part of my family
history. My parents finally visited Kiev when the USSR fell apart and they
were no longer afraid to go there. When I travelled there during the
Brezhnev era I was followed by the KGB. My cousin confirmed this years later
and told me he had been questioned by them after I left.
Lana
news:[email protected]...
> My wife usually buys my tickets. Once I did it - passing for
> someone from Western Ukraine with some Russian grammatical mistakes
> (CIS people pay Russian rates; buy Ukrainian is better than my decent
> Russian).
People always tell me that I speak Russian with a Ukrainian accent, so I
never had any problems buying tickets for anything. I've also been told that
I look Ukrainian and it must be true, as I've had complete strangers walk up
to me on the street in New York and start speaking Russian.
> It's not huge savings or anything, just a principle. My (distant)
> relatives founded and built Moscow: why should I pay foreigner rates?
> We lost a nice estate when the bolsheviks came, why not at the least
> get what I can a little cheaper?
Executions, loss of property and sojourns in Siberia are part of my family
history. My parents finally visited Kiev when the USSR fell apart and they
were no longer afraid to go there. When I travelled there during the
Brezhnev era I was followed by the KGB. My cousin confirmed this years later
and told me he had been questioned by them after I left.
Lana
Mar 31st 2004, 12:44 am
#29
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Moscow: dangerous place?
[email protected] (Seriozha) wrote in message news:<[email protected]. com>...
> [email protected] (?ystein) wrote in message news:<[email protected]. com>...
> > [email protected] (The Black Monk) wrote in message news:<[email protected]. com>...
> > > "Gregory Morrow" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected] link.net>...
> > > > bruce phipps wrote:
>
> > > Prices are comparable to those in the West for Westerners (dirt cheap
> > > for locals - have a local friend buy your tickets)
> > >
> > You can always give it a shot, but let me warn you that they take they
> > responibility for not allowing tourists at the lower rate real
> > serious. Don't expect to succeed unless you speak an excellent Russian
> > and don't get upset when the guards putting you straight when they
> > disclose your attempt for a good bargain
>
> I think higher prices for foreigners are just. Wages in Europe are
> about 10 times higher than in Russia.
In a way I agree with you that it is fair. On the other hand
foreigners experience that someone is after they money where they
turn. You pay a mark up when driving a taxi, when visiting a museum,
when you deliver your postcards at the hotel etc. On your mailadress I
assume you are Russian, and therefore probably not exposed to this
practice. A Russian friend of mine living in St. Petersburg have told
me he thought this only was true for the Winter Pallace and The
Russian Museum, until he had a foreign visitior and experienced this
"everywhere they turned". This also visualises another point: Not only
people that have wages 10 times higher than in Russia pays this lower
price.
Jan
> [email protected] (?ystein) wrote in message news:<[email protected]. com>...
> > [email protected] (The Black Monk) wrote in message news:<[email protected]. com>...
> > > "Gregory Morrow" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected] link.net>...
> > > > bruce phipps wrote:
>
> > > Prices are comparable to those in the West for Westerners (dirt cheap
> > > for locals - have a local friend buy your tickets)
> > >
> > You can always give it a shot, but let me warn you that they take they
> > responibility for not allowing tourists at the lower rate real
> > serious. Don't expect to succeed unless you speak an excellent Russian
> > and don't get upset when the guards putting you straight when they
> > disclose your attempt for a good bargain
>
> I think higher prices for foreigners are just. Wages in Europe are
> about 10 times higher than in Russia.
In a way I agree with you that it is fair. On the other hand
foreigners experience that someone is after they money where they
turn. You pay a mark up when driving a taxi, when visiting a museum,
when you deliver your postcards at the hotel etc. On your mailadress I
assume you are Russian, and therefore probably not exposed to this
practice. A Russian friend of mine living in St. Petersburg have told
me he thought this only was true for the Winter Pallace and The
Russian Museum, until he had a foreign visitior and experienced this
"everywhere they turned". This also visualises another point: Not only
people that have wages 10 times higher than in Russia pays this lower
price.
Jan
Mar 31st 2004, 1:27 am
#30
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Moscow: dangerous place?
Seriozha wrote:
> [email protected] (?ystein) wrote in message news:<[email protected]. com>...
>
>>[email protected] (The Black Monk) wrote in message news:<[email protected]. com>...
>>>"Gregory Morrow" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected] link.net>...
>>>>bruce phipps wrote:
>>
>>>Prices are comparable to those in the West for Westerners (dirt cheap
>>>for locals - have a local friend buy your tickets)
>>You can always give it a shot, but let me warn you that they take they
>>responibility for not allowing tourists at the lower rate real
>>serious. Don't expect to succeed unless you speak an excellent Russian
>>and don't get upset when the guards putting you straight when they
>>disclose your attempt for a good bargain
>
>
> I think higher prices for foreigners are just. Wages in Europe are
> about 10 times higher than in Russia.
Wages vary a lot on an individual basis, in Russia, in other parts of
Europe, and everywhere else. If this was the reason, every visitor would
be paying a fee based on his particular salary.
What makes somewhat more sense, I think, is to say that it is fair that
Russians should pay less in entrance fee since they subsidize the museum
with their taxes (if that is the case).
But it would make even more sense to abolish the dual pricing system
completely.
Bjorn
> [email protected] (?ystein) wrote in message news:<[email protected]. com>...
>
>>[email protected] (The Black Monk) wrote in message news:<[email protected]. com>...
>>>"Gregory Morrow" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected] link.net>...
>>>>bruce phipps wrote:
>>
>>>Prices are comparable to those in the West for Westerners (dirt cheap
>>>for locals - have a local friend buy your tickets)
>>You can always give it a shot, but let me warn you that they take they
>>responibility for not allowing tourists at the lower rate real
>>serious. Don't expect to succeed unless you speak an excellent Russian
>>and don't get upset when the guards putting you straight when they
>>disclose your attempt for a good bargain
>
>
> I think higher prices for foreigners are just. Wages in Europe are
> about 10 times higher than in Russia.
Wages vary a lot on an individual basis, in Russia, in other parts of
Europe, and everywhere else. If this was the reason, every visitor would
be paying a fee based on his particular salary.
What makes somewhat more sense, I think, is to say that it is fair that
Russians should pay less in entrance fee since they subsidize the museum
with their taxes (if that is the case).
But it would make even more sense to abolish the dual pricing system
completely.
Bjorn
