Bruce Phipps

I was planning a vacation in Moscow in September. But after reading
the UK travel guide book "Rough Guide to Moscow" I am not so sure.
The guide paints a rather pessimistic picture of Moscow:

* Most expensive city in the world, after Tokyo (suprising!)
* Gangs of street kids waiting to mug tourists at the station
* Have to bribe a friendly hotel porter to watch your hotel room
doesn't get robbed when you are out.
* Public transport from the airport is at best chaotic; taxi services
are mafia-run scam artists
* Tourists are charged ten times what a local person is, for the same
product/service
* AIDS epidemic nearly as bad as that in Africa
* Much mentions of mafia
etc...

I'm sure this paints a pretty bleak picture.
Any comments from people who have visited Moscow -- and survived to
tell the tale?!
I will be travelling independently, booking a budget hotel
(Sputnik/Belgrad). No Russian spoken. I am pretty street-wise (some
areas of our UK cities are violent and crime-ridden).

Bruce

Jakub Pilch

I've been to Moscow last year and spent three nice days there and had no
problems.

    > * Most expensive city in the world, after Tokyo (suprising!)
True in case you're a businessman renting an office in the downtown but not
as a tourist although restaurants and hotels are probably expensive (at
least for me).
    > * Gangs of street kids waiting to mug tourists at the station
I've never seen the above but you should watch your valuables all time.
    > * Have to bribe a friendly hotel porter to watch your hotel room
    > doesn't get robbed when you are out.
I don't know I haven't stayed in a hotel.
    > * Public transport from the airport is at best chaotic; taxi services
    > are mafia-run scam artists
I arrived on a train so have no idea about the airport but taxi scams are
probably true, whenever possible use metro - efficient, cheap, frequent and
beautiful stations
    > * Tourists are charged ten times what a local person is, for the same
    > product/service
True in case of hotels and museums especially Kremlin but metro/train/bus
tickets are no difference not mentioning shopping etc
    > * AIDS epidemic nearly as bad as that in Africa
That's partially true, if you're looking for sex in Moscow than you should
be careful
    > * Much mentions of mafia
They have no interst in tourists

JAKUB PILCH

Gregory Morrow

bruce phipps wrote:

    > I was planning a vacation in Moscow in September. But after reading
    > the UK travel guide book "Rough Guide to Moscow" I am not so sure.
    > The guide paints a rather pessimistic picture of Moscow:
    > * Most expensive city in the world, after Tokyo (suprising!)
    > * Gangs of street kids waiting to mug tourists at the station
    > * Have to bribe a friendly hotel porter to watch your hotel room
    > doesn't get robbed when you are out.
    > * Public transport from the airport is at best chaotic; taxi services
    > are mafia-run scam artists
    > * Tourists are charged ten times what a local person is, for the same
    > product/service
    > * AIDS epidemic nearly as bad as that in Africa
    > * Much mentions of mafia
    > etc...
    > I'm sure this paints a pretty bleak picture.
    > Any comments from people who have visited Moscow -- and survived to
    > tell the tale?!
    > I will be travelling independently, booking a budget hotel
    > (Sputnik/Belgrad). No Russian spoken. I am pretty street-wise (some
    > areas of our UK cities are violent and crime-ridden).


Why anyone would want to visit a dump like Moscow is beyond me. There are
tons of more visitor - friendly places to go. There are some places of
historical interest, I guess, and a few museums of note, but you can find
those attractions in spades in charming locales elsewhere, and at lower
prices and with less red tape to boot.

Additionally, you have the Russians themselves to put up with -- a ruder,
surlier, and more miserable bunch of people would be hard to find IMNSHO.

I was very tempted to visit the old USSR during the Cold War era...I guess
it's the "forbidden fruit" aura that surrounds such a place (I spent
extensive time in Czechoslavakia and the DDR, both of which I greatly
enjoyed). Now Russia is just something of a third - world dump, with none
of the accompanying touristic third - world charms, e.g. beaches, cheap and
good food, friendly "natives" who peddle quaint trinkets, cheap
prostitutes, jungle/wildlife eco - tours, and the like....

There is not yet much in the way of a reasonable tourist infrastructure:
it's either absurdly - priced premium international chain hotels or down -
and - dirty old Soviet - era hotels (from what I've read, where you are
staying is a certified dump...take lots of cockroach spray!). Not much in
the middle range. It's the same with food....

If you have lots of money, you can enjoy decent places to stay and dine. If
you don't, forget it...Russia is simply not geared yet to cater to middle -
class tourists (which the great majority of travellers are). The Moscow
city government is planning to build some middle - cost tourist hotels (with
help from French chains like Accor, etc.), but these are a few years down
the road.....

Oh, as for safety you should be okay. Because of terrorism, there is a
strong police presence in the central areas. And as long as you don't
drive, you will not be shaken down by the notoriously - corrup GAI (traffic
police). I've read numerous reports of tourists in St. Petersburg being
attacked and pickpocketed by agressive swarms of gypsy kids, don't know if
the same holds for Moscow....

If you haven't considered it already, I'd suggest visiting the
Baltics...still lots of history and it's in roughly the same area, but it's
cheapier, friendlier, and more accessible by a factor of at least ten.

Enjoy your hols :-)

--
Best
Greg

Bjorn Olsson

[email protected] (bruce phipps) wrote in message news:<[email protected] >...
    > I was planning a vacation in Moscow in September. But after reading
    > the UK travel guide book "Rough Guide to Moscow" I am not so sure.
    > The guide paints a rather pessimistic picture of Moscow:

Get another guide book. The one you have is rubbish.

    > * Most expensive city in the world, after Tokyo (suprising!)

I've no idea how they measure that, but it is misleading. Moscow is
expensive if you do all your travel by taxi, eat only in first class
restaurants, and so on. Public transportatin is otherwise incredibly
cheap, and there are plenty of cafes serving good meals at very
reasonable prices.

    > * Gangs of street kids waiting to mug tourists at the station

I guess they're talking about some particular train station at some
particular time of day. In general, Moscow is a safe city where
tourists are not likely to get mugged. Of course it happens at some
time to someone, as it does in any large city.

    > * Have to bribe a friendly hotel porter to watch your hotel room
    > doesn't get robbed when you are out.

Rubbish.

    > * Public transport from the airport is at best chaotic; taxi services
    > are mafia-run scam artists

There is nothing more chaotic about Moscow´s airport transport than
the average airport. If you fly into Domodedyovo there is a new train,
so things will be very simple. It's inexpensive too. From Sheremyetovo
there are two options apart from the taxis. One is to go on one of the
many minivans that park just outside the main entrance. They have the
routes posted on a little note in the window. It's written all in
Russian, but if you just ask for "Retchnoy vakzal", someone will point
you to the right van. The price should be 25 roubles (or something
similar), which is less than $1. Retchnoy vakzal is the nearest metro
station. Once there, buy a card for e.g. 10 metro rides. The ticket
lady does not speak english, but simply look at the price list posted
next to the ticket window, hand over the correct amount of money
(which will be a very small sum), and use your fingers to say how many
tickets.

The second alternative is to take the bus to Retchnoy vakzal. The bus
stops at the same palce as the minivans and has number 851. Tickets
are both on board. If you have a lot of luggage, they are allowed to
charge double fee (it costs next to nothing enayway, something like 5
roubles). Rechnoy vakzal is the last stop.

    > * Tourists are charged ten times what a local person is, for the same
    > product/service

This is now only true of state-owned museums. The

    > * AIDS epidemic nearly as bad as that in Africa

No, it's not. But as anywhere, you should refrain from unprotected sex
with strangers and sharing needles if taking drugs..

    > * Much mentions of mafia

There's mafia in Italy, the US, and to some extent in any other majot
city in the world. This is of no concern to the (average) tourist.

    > etc...
    >
    > I'm sure this paints a pretty bleak picture.
    > Any comments from people who have visited Moscow -- and survived to
    > tell the tale?!

I've been there a few times, survived (why should I not have
survived?) and love the place.

    > I will be travelling independently, booking a budget hotel
    > (Sputnik/Belgrad). No Russian spoken. I am pretty street-wise (some
    > areas of our UK cities are violent and crime-ridden).

Moscow is not any more dangerous than Manchester.

Bjorn

ptich

    > I was planning a vacation in Moscow in September. But after reading
    > the UK travel guide book "Rough Guide to Moscow" I am not so sure.
    > The guide paints a rather pessimistic picture of Moscow:

I am certainly biased as I am from Russia (St-Petersburg), but still,
I cannot help this weird feeling that Western travel books are not
fair to Russia... From what I've seen, every western city of any
considerable size, both in Europe and in US (where I live now), is
way-way more dangerous than Moscow or St-Petersburg. I was robbed on
my 3 day stay in Barcelona - such a thing never happened in my 27
years in Russia. I mean, look at all these graffiti, all this
riff-raff around train stations and in downdowns, littered subways
full of drug addicts - you won't see a tenth of it in Russia's major
cities, beleive me.

The only thing that rings a bell in your list is that foreign tourists
do have to pay higher rates for museum tickets (not 10 times, but 2-3
times is a norm). So better hire a local guide (it is a good idea
anyway).

-Misha

    > * Most expensive city in the world, after Tokyo (suprising!)
    > * Gangs of street kids waiting to mug tourists at the station
    > * Have to bribe a friendly hotel porter to watch your hotel room
    > doesn't get robbed when you are out.
    > * Public transport from the airport is at best chaotic; taxi services
    > are mafia-run scam artists
    > * Tourists are charged ten times what a local person is, for the same
    > product/service
    > * AIDS epidemic nearly as bad as that in Africa
    > * Much mentions of mafia
    > etc...
    >
    > I'm sure this paints a pretty bleak picture.
    > Any comments from people who have visited Moscow -- and survived to
    > tell the tale?!
    > I will be travelling independently, booking a budget hotel
    > (Sputnik/Belgrad). No Russian spoken. I am pretty street-wise (some
    > areas of our UK cities are violent and crime-ridden).
    >
    > Bruce

Bruce Phipps

    >
    > Why anyone would want to visit a dump like Moscow is beyond me. There are
    > tons of more visitor - friendly places to go. There are some places of
    > historical interest, I guess, and a few museums of note, but you can find
    > those attractions in spades in charming locales elsewhere, and at lower
    > prices and with less red tape to boot.
    >
    > Additionally, you have the Russians themselves to put up with -- a ruder,
    > surlier, and more miserable bunch of people would be hard to find IMNSHO.
    >
    > I was very tempted to visit the old USSR during the Cold War era...I guess

    > There is not yet much in the way of a reasonable tourist infrastructure:
    > it's either absurdly - priced premium international chain hotels or down -
    > and - dirty old Soviet - era hotels (from what I've read, where you are
    > staying is a certified dump...take lots of cockroach spray!). Not much in
    > the middle range. It's the same with food....
    >
Thats the feeling I get -- no middle ground. I couldn't work out why
hotels were going to cost me more than in the South of France or
Germany, where people are generally more affluent.

    > I've read numerous reports of tourists in St. Petersburg being
    > attacked and pickpocketed by agressive swarms of gypsy kids, don't know if
    > the same holds for Moscow....
Thats what I read about Moscow. Gypsies, drunks and pickpockets
hassling anyone who looks like a tourist.
    >
    > If you haven't considered it already, I'd suggest visiting the
    > Baltics...still lots of history and it's in roughly the same area, but it's
    > cheapier, friendlier, and more accessible by a factor of at least ten.
    >
Any suggestions for places to visit?


Bruce

Björn Olsson

[email protected] wrote:

    >>I was planning a vacation in Moscow in September. But after reading
    >>the UK travel guide book "Rough Guide to Moscow" I am not so sure.
    >>The guide paints a rather pessimistic picture of Moscow:
    >
    >
    > I am certainly biased as I am from Russia (St-Petersburg), but still,
    > I cannot help this weird feeling that Western travel books are not
    > fair to Russia...

I get the same feeling without being Russian (just a frequent visitor).

    > From what I've seen, every western city of any
    > considerable size, both in Europe and in US (where I live now), is
    > way-way more dangerous than Moscow or St-Petersburg. I was robbed on
    > my 3 day stay in Barcelona - such a thing never happened in my 27
    > years in Russia. I mean, look at all these graffiti, all this
    > riff-raff around train stations and in downdowns, littered subways
    > full of drug addicts - you won't see a tenth of it in Russia's major
    > cities, beleive me.

Exactly. It's just that somehow westerners pay so much more attention to
these things when they see them in Russia. No matter that Amsterdam,
Hamburg, etc (not to mention US cities) are full of drug addicts,
beggars, prostitutes etc, but somehow that's all considered to be
piqturesque and charming.

Bjorn

Giacomo www.discover.it

[email protected] wrote:

    >>I was planning a vacation in Moscow in September. But after reading
    >>the UK travel guide book "Rough Guide to Moscow" I am not so sure.
    >>The guide paints a rather pessimistic picture of Moscow:
    >
    >
    > I am certainly biased as I am from Russia (St-Petersburg), but still,
    > I cannot help this weird feeling that Western travel books are not
    > fair to Russia... From what I've seen, every western city of any
    > considerable size, both in Europe and in US (where I live now), is
    > way-way more dangerous than Moscow or St-Petersburg. I was robbed on
    > my 3 day stay in Barcelona - such a thing never happened in my 27
    > years in Russia. I mean, look at all these graffiti, all this
    > riff-raff around train stations and in downdowns, littered subways
    > full of drug addicts - you won't see a tenth of it in Russia's major
    > cities, beleive me.
    >
    > The only thing that rings a bell in your list is that foreign tourists
    > do have to pay higher rates for museum tickets (not 10 times, but 2-3
    > times is a norm). So better hire a local guide (it is a good idea
    > anyway).
    >

Misha, I was happy about your report. Was going to travel to Moscow more
quietly... until I read that last sentence!

What ?????

Hire a local guide?

Yours is not the first suggestion to hire a local guide in Russia that I
read.

I have travelled a lot. I never had any reason to hire a local guide.
Not even in Tunisia or Turkey, which I travelled by bus. I live in the
center of Rome. I see hundreds of tourists everyday. They don't have a
local guide. Even big groups of 50 are usually guided by someone from
their country.

Usually journalists or workers staying in war areas like Iraq and
Afghanistan have to hire a local guide. I know a few that were there.

The need for a local guide makes me think that maybe the guide is not
completely off track.

I was never in Russia. I want to go there, but I'd like to know what
will expect me. I really dislike to read such opposite views about the
same matter.

It is like the story of sharks. Some people say the risk that they
attack men is so low that is easier to be struck by a lightning trekking
in the Alps, than being bitten by a shark even when swimming in areas
full of them. Then i read reports of a man lost in the Caribbean on a
small safety boat who had sharks try to climb into his boat to eat him
up ( Garcia Marquez). I also read news of a shipwreck where half of the
people (50%) got killed by sharks.

Where is the truth?

Why aren't safety recommendations so little scientific and statistical?
Why is there on such important matters the chance to say all and the
opposite of it?

Why can't an uninformed third party (like me) make up his mind between
such opposite points of view?

Giacomo







    > -Misha
    >
    >
    >>* Most expensive city in the world, after Tokyo (suprising!)
    >>* Gangs of street kids waiting to mug tourists at the station
    >>* Have to bribe a friendly hotel porter to watch your hotel room
    >>doesn't get robbed when you are out.
    >>* Public transport from the airport is at best chaotic; taxi services
    >>are mafia-run scam artists
    >>* Tourists are charged ten times what a local person is, for the same
    >>product/service
    >>* AIDS epidemic nearly as bad as that in Africa
    >>* Much mentions of mafia
    >>etc...
    >>I'm sure this paints a pretty bleak picture.
    >>Any comments from people who have visited Moscow -- and survived to
    >>tell the tale?!
    >>I will be travelling independently, booking a budget hotel
    >>(Sputnik/Belgrad). No Russian spoken. I am pretty street-wise (some
    >>areas of our UK cities are violent and crime-ridden).
    >>Bruce

Markku Grönroos

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > > I was planning a vacation in Moscow in September. But after reading
    > > the UK travel guide book "Rough Guide to Moscow" I am not so sure.
    > > The guide paints a rather pessimistic picture of Moscow:
    > I am certainly biased as I am from Russia (St-Petersburg), but still,
    > I cannot help this weird feeling that Western travel books are not
    > fair to Russia... From what I've seen, every western city of any
    > considerable size, both in Europe and in US (where I live now), is
    > way-way more dangerous than Moscow or St-Petersburg. I was robbed on
    > my 3 day stay in Barcelona - such a thing never happened in my 27
    > years in Russia. I mean, look at all these graffiti, all this

Finnish MP Tony Halme was also attacked by half a dozen Moroccan rascals in
Barcelona. He was stabbed a couple of times but he managed to broke many
bones of the enemy and to catch most of them (a couple of them were able to
run away).

Björn Olsson

Giacomo www.discover.it wrote:
    >
    >
    > [email protected] wrote:
    >
    >>> I was planning a vacation in Moscow in September. But after reading
    >>> the UK travel guide book "Rough Guide to Moscow" I am not so sure.
    >>> The guide paints a rather pessimistic picture of Moscow:
    >> I am certainly biased as I am from Russia (St-Petersburg), but still,
    >> I cannot help this weird feeling that Western travel books are not
    >> fair to Russia... From what I've seen, every western city of any
    >> considerable size, both in Europe and in US (where I live now), is
    >> way-way more dangerous than Moscow or St-Petersburg. I was robbed on
    >> my 3 day stay in Barcelona - such a thing never happened in my 27
    >> years in Russia. I mean, look at all these graffiti, all this
    >> riff-raff around train stations and in downdowns, littered subways
    >> full of drug addicts - you won't see a tenth of it in Russia's major
    >> cities, beleive me.
    >> The only thing that rings a bell in your list is that foreign tourists
    >> do have to pay higher rates for museum tickets (not 10 times, but 2-3
    >> times is a norm). So better hire a local guide (it is a good idea
    >> anyway).
    >
    > Misha, I was happy about your report. Was going to travel to Moscow more
    > quietly... until I read that last sentence!
    >
    > What ?????
    >
    > Hire a local guide?
    >
    > Yours is not the first suggestion to hire a local guide in Russia that I
    > read.
    >
    > I have travelled a lot. I never had any reason to hire a local guide.
    > Not even in Tunisia or Turkey, which I travelled by bus. I live in the
    > center of Rome. I see hundreds of tourists everyday. They don't have a
    > local guide. Even big groups of 50 are usually guided by someone from
    > their country.

You can do fine in Moscow without a guide too. You just need to prepare
a little by learning and practicing the cyrillic alphabet (so that you
can read signs, for example in the subway) and studying some basic facts
about public transport etc. You also need (just like in Tunisia) to be
able to ignore for example pushy taxi drivers at the airport, and simply
head for you chosen mode of transport, no matter how they are trying to
convince you to do otherwise.

    > Usually journalists or workers staying in war areas like Iraq and
    > Afghanistan have to hire a local guide. I know a few that were there.
    >
    > The need for a local guide makes me think that maybe the guide is not
    > completely off track.
    >
    > I was never in Russia. I want to go there, but I'd like to know what
    > will expect me. I really dislike to read such opposite views about the
    > same matter.

People are different and perceive the very same things very differently.

    > It is like the story of sharks. Some people say the risk that they
    > attack men is so low that is easier to be struck by a lightning trekking
    > in the Alps, than being bitten by a shark even when swimming in areas
    > full of them. Then i read reports of a man lost in the Caribbean on a
    > small safety boat who had sharks try to climb into his boat to eat him
    > up ( Garcia Marquez). I also read news of a shipwreck where half of the
    > people (50%) got killed by sharks.
    >
    > Where is the truth?

The truth is that some people will focus in the fact that sharks almost
never attack humans, while other people will focus on the fact that some
humans do get attacked by sharks. It's somewhat like the "is the glass
half empty or half full" issue.

    > Why aren't safety recommendations so little scientific and statistical?
    > Why is there on such important matters the chance to say all and the
    > opposite of it?
    >
    > Why can't an uninformed third party (like me) make up his mind between
    > such opposite points of view?

There's only one way to solve that: Visit Russia and get your own
impressions.

Bjorn

    >> -Misha
    >>> * Most expensive city in the world, after Tokyo (suprising!)
    >>> * Gangs of street kids waiting to mug tourists at the station
    >>> * Have to bribe a friendly hotel porter to watch your hotel room
    >>> doesn't get robbed when you are out.
    >>> * Public transport from the airport is at best chaotic; taxi services
    >>> are mafia-run scam artists
    >>> * Tourists are charged ten times what a local person is, for the same
    >>> product/service
    >>> * AIDS epidemic nearly as bad as that in Africa
    >>> * Much mentions of mafia etc...
    >>> I'm sure this paints a pretty bleak picture. Any comments from people
    >>> who have visited Moscow -- and survived to
    >>> tell the tale?!
    >>> I will be travelling independently, booking a budget hotel
    >>> (Sputnik/Belgrad). No Russian spoken. I am pretty street-wise (some
    >>> areas of our UK cities are violent and crime-ridden).
    >>> Bruce
    >
    >

Giacomo www.discover.it

Björn Olsson wrote:
    > Giacomo www.discover.it wrote:
    >
    >> [email protected] wrote:
    >>>> I was planning a vacation in Moscow in September. But after reading
    >>>> the UK travel guide book "Rough Guide to Moscow" I am not so sure.
    >>>> The guide paints a rather pessimistic picture of Moscow:
    >>> I am certainly biased as I am from Russia (St-Petersburg), but still,
    >>> I cannot help this weird feeling that Western travel books are not
    >>> fair to Russia... From what I've seen, every western city of any
    >>> considerable size, both in Europe and in US (where I live now), is
    >>> way-way more dangerous than Moscow or St-Petersburg. I was robbed on
    >>> my 3 day stay in Barcelona - such a thing never happened in my 27
    >>> years in Russia. I mean, look at all these graffiti, all this
    >>> riff-raff around train stations and in downdowns, littered subways
    >>> full of drug addicts - you won't see a tenth of it in Russia's major
    >>> cities, beleive me.
    >>> The only thing that rings a bell in your list is that foreign tourists
    >>> do have to pay higher rates for museum tickets (not 10 times, but 2-3
    >>> times is a norm). So better hire a local guide (it is a good idea
    >>> anyway).
    >> Misha, I was happy about your report. Was going to travel to Moscow
    >> more quietly... until I read that last sentence!
    >> What ?????
    >> Hire a local guide?
    >> Yours is not the first suggestion to hire a local guide in Russia that
    >> I read.
    >> I have travelled a lot. I never had any reason to hire a local guide.
    >> Not even in Tunisia or Turkey, which I travelled by bus. I live in the
    >> center of Rome. I see hundreds of tourists everyday. They don't have a
    >> local guide. Even big groups of 50 are usually guided by someone from
    >> their country.
    >
    >
    > You can do fine in Moscow without a guide too. You just need to prepare
    > a little by learning and practicing the cyrillic alphabet (so that you
    > can read signs, for example in the subway) and studying some basic facts
    > about public transport etc. You also need (just like in Tunisia) to be
    > able to ignore for example pushy taxi drivers at the airport, and simply
    > head for you chosen mode of transport, no matter how they are trying to
    > convince you to do otherwise.
    >
    >> Usually journalists or workers staying in war areas like Iraq and
    >> Afghanistan have to hire a local guide. I know a few that were there.
    >> The need for a local guide makes me think that maybe the guide is not
    >> completely off track.
    >> I was never in Russia. I want to go there, but I'd like to know what
    >> will expect me. I really dislike to read such opposite views about the
    >> same matter.
    >
    >
    > People are different and perceive the very same things very differently.
    >
    >> It is like the story of sharks. Some people say the risk that they
    >> attack men is so low that is easier to be struck by a lightning
    >> trekking in the Alps, than being bitten by a shark even when swimming
    >> in areas full of them. Then i read reports of a man lost in the
    >> Caribbean on a small safety boat who had sharks try to climb into his
    >> boat to eat him up ( Garcia Marquez). I also read news of a shipwreck
    >> where half of the people (50%) got killed by sharks.
    >> Where is the truth?
    >
    >
    > The truth is that some people will focus in the fact that sharks almost
    > never attack humans, while other people will focus on the fact that some
    > humans do get attacked by sharks. It's somewhat like the "is the glass
    > half empty or half full" issue.
    >
    >> Why aren't safety recommendations so little scientific and
    >> statistical? Why is there on such important matters the chance to say
    >> all and the opposite of it?
    >> Why can't an uninformed third party (like me) make up his mind between
    >> such opposite points of view?
    >
    >
    > There's only one way to solve that: Visit Russia and get your own
    > impressions.
    >
    > Bjorn

Bjorn, my impression is exactly what I'd never trust. 1 person does not
make statistics. I am a beeter judge now, with mind more open, than
after having been there. I don't want to trust your or my opinion.

I'd like the opinion of an ebassy worker who can compare several capital
cities using data on the number of problems reported in relationship
with number of visitors, a travel agent who sends many people to Russia
and to other destinations and gets their feedback...

The fact that I may be robbed or killed in Moscow would probably not
change staistical figures, but it would definitely change my opinion (
if I stil have one ... :-) )

I only correct way to extimate risk is statistical, that is why I'd walk
downtown New York or Madrid without fear of terorists, but would not do
the same downtown Tel Aviv... At lest



    >
    >>> -Misha
    >>>> * Most expensive city in the world, after Tokyo (suprising!)
    >>>> * Gangs of street kids waiting to mug tourists at the station
    >>>> * Have to bribe a friendly hotel porter to watch your hotel room
    >>>> doesn't get robbed when you are out.
    >>>> * Public transport from the airport is at best chaotic; taxi services
    >>>> are mafia-run scam artists
    >>>> * Tourists are charged ten times what a local person is, for the same
    >>>> product/service
    >>>> * AIDS epidemic nearly as bad as that in Africa
    >>>> * Much mentions of mafia etc...
    >>>> I'm sure this paints a pretty bleak picture. Any comments from
    >>>> people who have visited Moscow -- and survived to
    >>>> tell the tale?!
    >>>> I will be travelling independently, booking a budget hotel
    >>>> (Sputnik/Belgrad). No Russian spoken. I am pretty street-wise (some
    >>>> areas of our UK cities are violent and crime-ridden).
    >>>> Bruce
    >

The Black Monk

"Gregory Morrow" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected] link.net>...
    > bruce phipps wrote:
    >

    >
    >
    > Why anyone would want to visit a dump like Moscow is beyond me. There are
    > tons of more visitor - friendly places to go. There are some places of
    > historical interest,

The Kremlin is about as significant a place of historical interest as
it gets, north of the Mediteranian.

    > I guess, and a few museums of note,

Tratkyakov Gallery is breathtaking, the equal of most any art museum
found in the west.

    > but you can find
    > those attractions in spades in charming locales elsewhere, and at lower
    > prices and with less red tape to boot.

Prices are comparable to those in the West for Westerners (dirt cheap
for locals - have a local friend buy your tickets)

    > Additionally, you have the Russians themselves to put up with -- a ruder,
    > surlier, and more miserable bunch of people would be hard to find IMNSHO.

Never experienced that. Though they won't give you fake
have-a-nice-day smiles all the time.

    > I was very tempted to visit the old USSR during the Cold War era...I guess
    > it's the "forbidden fruit" aura that surrounds such a place (I spent
    > extensive time in Czechoslavakia and the DDR, both of which I greatly
    > enjoyed).

Might I suggest your second-hand impressions are biased by
anti-Russian Czechs or Germans?

    > Now Russia is just something of a third - world dump, with none
    > of the accompanying touristic third - world charms, e.g. beaches, cheap and
    > good food, friendly "natives" who peddle quaint trinkets, cheap
    > prostitutes, jungle/wildlife eco - tours, and the like....

Russian GSP PPP is comparable to that of Poland and the Baltics
(slightly higher than Lithuania's, Latvia's, Poland's).

Moscow per capita income according to figures from the CIA World
Factbook is about $28,000 per year PPP, higher than in most of Western
Europe, a fact quickly and obviously evident by anyone wandering its
streets.

    > There is not yet much in the way of a reasonable tourist infrastructure:
    > it's either absurdly - priced premium international chain hotels or down -
    > and - dirty old Soviet - era hotels (from what I've read, where you are
    > staying is a certified dump...take lots of cockroach spray!). Not much in
    > the middle range. It's the same with food....

I can't vouch for hotels, I stayed w/family. As for food, there are
plenty of moderate priced restaurants ($10-$20 for a meal) such as
Yulki Palki, Mu Mu, Taras Bulba, with much better food than found in
most mid-range American restauarants (Denny's etc.).

    > If you have lots of money, you can enjoy decent places to stay and dine. If
    > you don't, forget it...Russia is simply not geared yet to cater to middle -
    > class tourists (which the great majority of travellers are). The Moscow
    > city government is planning to build some middle - cost tourist hotels (with
    > help from French chains like Accor, etc.), but these are a few years down
    > the road.....
    >
    > Oh, as for safety you should be okay. Because of terrorism, there is a
    > strong police presence in the central areas.

You're right on that note. Moscow is incomparably safer in terms of
street crime than any Western city. Someone from England worrying
about being a victim of crime in Moscow is frankly quite absurd.

    > And as long as you don't
    > drive, you will not be shaken down by the notoriously - corrup GAI (traffic
    > police). I've read numerous reports of tourists in St. Petersburg being
    > attacked and pickpocketed by agressive swarms of gypsy kids, don't know if
    > the same holds for Moscow....

Gypsies are rare but they do exist. They're rather tame in Moscow,
however.

    > If you haven't considered it already, I'd suggest visiting the
    > Baltics...still lots of history and it's in roughly the same area, but it's
    > cheapier, friendlier, and more accessible by a factor of at least ten.

Baltics aren't that different from western Europe, though.

BM

    >
    > Enjoy your hols :-)

The Black Monk

[email protected] (bruce phipps) wrote in message news:<[email protected] om>...
    > >
    > > Why anyone would want to visit a dump like Moscow is beyond me. There are
    > > tons of more visitor - friendly places to go. There are some places of
    > > historical interest, I guess, and a few museums of note, but you can find
    > > those attractions in spades in charming locales elsewhere, and at lower
    > > prices and with less red tape to boot.
    > >
    > > Additionally, you have the Russians themselves to put up with -- a ruder,
    > > surlier, and more miserable bunch of people would be hard to find IMNSHO.
    > >
    > > I was very tempted to visit the old USSR during the Cold War era...I guess
    >
    > > There is not yet much in the way of a reasonable tourist infrastructure:
    > > it's either absurdly - priced premium international chain hotels or down -
    > > and - dirty old Soviet - era hotels (from what I've read, where you are
    > > staying is a certified dump...take lots of cockroach spray!). Not much in
    > > the middle range. It's the same with food....
    > >
    > Thats the feeling I get -- no middle ground. I couldn't work out why
    > hotels were going to cost me more than in the South of France or
    > Germany, where people are generally more affluent.

Again, I can't say much for hotels. However much else is way off
base. People in Moscow are more affluent than the average Frenchman
or German and restaurant prices, club prices, etc. are comparable.
You don't have to eat in $200 per meal restaurants with machine-gun
toting guards outside; there are plenty of great mid-range places with
excellent Russian cuisine.

Even cheap options - the sloyky and pyrozhki (pastries) sold for $.30
outside metro stations - are excellent. Fresh-baked dough better than
anything sold in the US without all of that sugar, stuffed with
rasberries or meat or apples...

    > > I've read numerous reports of tourists in St. Petersburg being
    > > attacked and pickpocketed by agressive swarms of gypsy kids, don't know if
    > > the same holds for Moscow....

    > Thats what I read about Moscow. Gypsies, drunks and pickpockets
    > hassling anyone who looks like a tourist.

As a middle class tourist in central Moscow, you will stand out as
being poorer than those around you (no offense meant). I have gone
for strolls with my wife at 2 in the morning and never been hassled.
Police are everywhere and can be brutal to bothersome folk, so there
is *much* *much* more order on the streets and on the subway than in
say Germany or New York. Things are worse in outlying suburbs, miles
and worlds away from where you as a tourist would be.

    > > If you haven't considered it already, I'd suggest visiting the
    > > Baltics...still lots of history and it's in roughly the same area, but it's
    > > cheapier, friendlier, and more accessible by a factor of at least ten.
    > >
    > Any suggestions for places to visit?

I'd take Cracow over the Baltics easily.

regards,

BM

    >
    > Bruce

Markku Grönroos

"The Black Monk" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > The Kremlin is about as significant a place of historical interest as
    > it gets, north of the Mediteranian.

    > Tratkyakov Gallery is breathtaking, the equal of most any art museum
    > found in the west.
    > Prices are comparable to those in the West for Westerners (dirt cheap
    > for locals - have a local friend buy your tickets)
Are such tickets any good in the hands of Western tourists ? What about one
doesn't have a local friend around ? Do they have separate prices for cats
and dogs ?

    > > Additionally, you have the Russians themselves to put up with -- a
ruder,
    > > surlier, and more miserable bunch of people would be hard to find
IMNSHO.
    > Never experienced that. Though they won't give you fake
    > have-a-nice-day smiles all the time.
Sheremetyevo is an excellent window to see Russian authority at work. Well,
it is exotic and it is typically RUDE for sure. More than once I have
witnessed their inability to understand that passengers are not deaf. In my
opinion too Russia must be one of those lesser appealing countries to spend
a holiday.

ptich

    > Hire a local guide?
    > Usually journalists or workers staying in war areas like Iraq and
    > Afghanistan have to hire a local guide.

You're taking it too far - I did not mean a local guide to navigate
the minefields You should do fine w/out a guide. But if you care
about the history behind things you see, a local guide would be a
must.

In general, I beleive that Moscow and St-Petersburg are plagued by the
same problems as every other Western city, but in much lesser degree.
So if you take the same precautions you would take, let's say, in New
York, you should see the same or better results.

Just a few suggestions:
1. Try to book an apartment (centrally located) instead of a hotel -
search for "holiday apartments", "short term rent", etc.
2. Whenever possible, try to use subway
3. Don't miss St-Petersburg and its suburbs - there is much more to
see there than in Moscow