Marseille or Marseilles
Oct 9th 2004, 12:35 am
#1
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Marseille or Marseilles
Why do we see both spellings, and what is the reason for them?
Oct 9th 2004, 3:42 am
#2
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Re: Marseille or Marseilles
"Leland Windreich" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:2nG9d.33229$a41.26362@pd7tw2no...
> Why do we see both spellings, and what is the reason for them?
Many cities have names in other countries that are different in
languages other than those used by their inhabitants. Some foreign
names may preserve an older name like Marseille/Marseilles or
Munchen/Munich but I'm not sure about ones like London/Londres or why
Bruges is also called Brugge by French and Dutch speakers in Belgium.
I guess you'd have to read history books to find out. It has been
pointed out that using only the local name can lessen some confusion
in things like railroad timetables but the choice is often a matter of
political correctness. I like the quaint old traditions myself :-)
--
James V. Silverton
Potomac, Maryland, USA
news:2nG9d.33229$a41.26362@pd7tw2no...
> Why do we see both spellings, and what is the reason for them?
Many cities have names in other countries that are different in
languages other than those used by their inhabitants. Some foreign
names may preserve an older name like Marseille/Marseilles or
Munchen/Munich but I'm not sure about ones like London/Londres or why
Bruges is also called Brugge by French and Dutch speakers in Belgium.
I guess you'd have to read history books to find out. It has been
pointed out that using only the local name can lessen some confusion
in things like railroad timetables but the choice is often a matter of
political correctness. I like the quaint old traditions myself :-)
--
James V. Silverton
Potomac, Maryland, USA
Oct 9th 2004, 10:14 pm
#3
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Posts: n/a
Re: Marseille or Marseilles
On Sat, 09 Oct 2004 00:35:10 GMT, "Leland Windreich"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Why do we see both spellings, and what is the reason for them?
Marseille is the name of the city in french. Marseilles is its
name in English.
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Why do we see both spellings, and what is the reason for them?
Marseille is the name of the city in french. Marseilles is its
name in English.
Oct 9th 2004, 10:42 pm
#4
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Posts: n/a
Re: Marseille or Marseilles
On Fri, 8 Oct 2004 23:42:07 -0400, "James Silverton"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>"Leland Windreich" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:2nG9d.33229$a41.26362@pd7tw2no...
>> Why do we see both spellings, and what is the reason for them?
>Many cities have names in other countries that are different in
>languages other than those used by their inhabitants. Some foreign
>names may preserve an older name like Marseille/Marseilles or
>Munchen/Munich but I'm not sure about ones like London/Londres or why
>Bruges is also called Brugge by French and Dutch speakers in Belgium.
>I guess you'd have to read history books to find out. It has been
>pointed out that using only the local name can lessen some confusion
>in things like railroad timetables but the choice is often a matter of
>political correctness. I like the quaint old traditions myself :-)
I suppose strictly speaking the third example should have been
London/London as the previous examples were local/english name.
I have often wondered why people bothered to have a different name in
their own language when it seems to me that the local name is OK.
For example, Munchen seems just as definitive as Munich to me. Did
early travellers mis-hear the name or were not able to pronounce it?
Did they deliberately call the place something else? Did the name
gradually change in different languages over time from some common
name?
Bruges/Brugge is a good example. I always understood that the name
came from the scandinavian word Brygga or Bryggja, meaning port.
How this came to be the plural Bruges I don't know.
Derek
<[email protected]> wrote:
>"Leland Windreich" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:2nG9d.33229$a41.26362@pd7tw2no...
>> Why do we see both spellings, and what is the reason for them?
>Many cities have names in other countries that are different in
>languages other than those used by their inhabitants. Some foreign
>names may preserve an older name like Marseille/Marseilles or
>Munchen/Munich but I'm not sure about ones like London/Londres or why
>Bruges is also called Brugge by French and Dutch speakers in Belgium.
>I guess you'd have to read history books to find out. It has been
>pointed out that using only the local name can lessen some confusion
>in things like railroad timetables but the choice is often a matter of
>political correctness. I like the quaint old traditions myself :-)
I suppose strictly speaking the third example should have been
London/London as the previous examples were local/english name.
I have often wondered why people bothered to have a different name in
their own language when it seems to me that the local name is OK.
For example, Munchen seems just as definitive as Munich to me. Did
early travellers mis-hear the name or were not able to pronounce it?
Did they deliberately call the place something else? Did the name
gradually change in different languages over time from some common
name?
Bruges/Brugge is a good example. I always understood that the name
came from the scandinavian word Brygga or Bryggja, meaning port.
How this came to be the plural Bruges I don't know.
Derek
Oct 9th 2004, 10:55 pm
#5
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Posts: n/a
Re: Marseille or Marseilles
"Derek McBryde" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Fri, 8 Oct 2004 23:42:07 -0400, "James Silverton"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>"Leland Windreich" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>news:2nG9d.33229$a41.26362@pd7tw2no...
>>> Why do we see both spellings, and what is the reason for them?
>>Many cities have names in other countries that are different in
>>languages other than those used by their inhabitants. Some foreign
>>names may preserve an older name like Marseille/Marseilles or
>>Munchen/Munich but I'm not sure about ones like London/Londres or
>>why
>>Bruges is also called Brugge by French and Dutch speakers in
>>Belgium.
>>I guess you'd have to read history books to find out. It has been
>>pointed out that using only the local name can lessen some confusion
>>in things like railroad timetables but the choice is often a matter
>>of
>>political correctness. I like the quaint old traditions myself :-)
> I suppose strictly speaking the third example should have been
> London/London as the previous examples were local/english name.
> I have often wondered why people bothered to have a different name
> in
> their own language when it seems to me that the local name is OK.
> For example, Munchen seems just as definitive as Munich to me.
> Did
> early travellers mis-hear the name or were not able to pronounce it?
> Did they deliberately call the place something else? Did the name
> gradually change in different languages over time from some common
> name?
> Bruges/Brugge is a good example. I always understood that the name
> came from the scandinavian word Brygga or Bryggja, meaning port.
> How this came to be the plural Bruges I don't know.
I thought my intent was obvious enough: local/foreign :-) However, I
suspect locals, who use a name frequently, are more likely to change
it than foreigners who only speak it occasionally. I believe Munich
comes from old German Munichen (of the monks). What someone called
"the tin ear of the pioneer" may also be in effect since people tend
to hear what they expect. I wonder if anyone knows of a book on the
subject?
--
James V. Silverton
Potomac, Maryland, USA
news:[email protected]...
> On Fri, 8 Oct 2004 23:42:07 -0400, "James Silverton"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>"Leland Windreich" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>news:2nG9d.33229$a41.26362@pd7tw2no...
>>> Why do we see both spellings, and what is the reason for them?
>>Many cities have names in other countries that are different in
>>languages other than those used by their inhabitants. Some foreign
>>names may preserve an older name like Marseille/Marseilles or
>>Munchen/Munich but I'm not sure about ones like London/Londres or
>>why
>>Bruges is also called Brugge by French and Dutch speakers in
>>Belgium.
>>I guess you'd have to read history books to find out. It has been
>>pointed out that using only the local name can lessen some confusion
>>in things like railroad timetables but the choice is often a matter
>>of
>>political correctness. I like the quaint old traditions myself :-)
> I suppose strictly speaking the third example should have been
> London/London as the previous examples were local/english name.
> I have often wondered why people bothered to have a different name
> in
> their own language when it seems to me that the local name is OK.
> For example, Munchen seems just as definitive as Munich to me.
> Did
> early travellers mis-hear the name or were not able to pronounce it?
> Did they deliberately call the place something else? Did the name
> gradually change in different languages over time from some common
> name?
> Bruges/Brugge is a good example. I always understood that the name
> came from the scandinavian word Brygga or Bryggja, meaning port.
> How this came to be the plural Bruges I don't know.
I thought my intent was obvious enough: local/foreign :-) However, I
suspect locals, who use a name frequently, are more likely to change
it than foreigners who only speak it occasionally. I believe Munich
comes from old German Munichen (of the monks). What someone called
"the tin ear of the pioneer" may also be in effect since people tend
to hear what they expect. I wonder if anyone knows of a book on the
subject?
--
James V. Silverton
Potomac, Maryland, USA
Oct 10th 2004, 9:23 am
#6
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Posts: n/a
Re: Marseille or Marseilles
"Leland Windreich" <[email protected]> a écrit dans le message de news:
2nG9d.33229$a41.26362@pd7tw2no...
> Why do we see both spellings, and what is the reason for them?
Marseille is the French spelling, Marseilles is the English spelling.
2nG9d.33229$a41.26362@pd7tw2no...
> Why do we see both spellings, and what is the reason for them?
Marseille is the French spelling, Marseilles is the English spelling.
Oct 11th 2004, 12:00 pm
#7
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Re: Marseille or Marseilles
On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 11:23:34 +0200, "JX Bardant"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>"Leland Windreich" <[email protected]> a ?crit dans le message de news:
>2nG9d.33229$a41.26362@pd7tw2no...
>> Why do we see both spellings, and what is the reason for them?
>Marseille is the French spelling, Marseilles is the English spelling.
And, of course, the original name was "Massalia"...
Stelios
--
The address in the headers is real and does not need de-mungeing
<[email protected]> wrote:
>"Leland Windreich" <[email protected]> a ?crit dans le message de news:
>2nG9d.33229$a41.26362@pd7tw2no...
>> Why do we see both spellings, and what is the reason for them?
>Marseille is the French spelling, Marseilles is the English spelling.
And, of course, the original name was "Massalia"...
Stelios
--
The address in the headers is real and does not need de-mungeing
Oct 11th 2004, 12:50 pm
#8
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Posts: n/a
Re: Marseille or Marseilles
On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 15:00:13 +0300, Stelios Zacharias
<[email protected]> wrote:
>On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 11:23:34 +0200, "JX Bardant"
><[email protected]> wrote:
>>"Leland Windreich" <[email protected]> a ?crit dans le message de news:
>>2nG9d.33229$a41.26362@pd7tw2no...
>>> Why do we see both spellings, and what is the reason for them?
>>Marseille is the French spelling, Marseilles is the English spelling.
>And, of course, the original name was "Massalia"...
because it was Greek colony?
<[email protected]> wrote:
>On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 11:23:34 +0200, "JX Bardant"
><[email protected]> wrote:
>>"Leland Windreich" <[email protected]> a ?crit dans le message de news:
>>2nG9d.33229$a41.26362@pd7tw2no...
>>> Why do we see both spellings, and what is the reason for them?
>>Marseille is the French spelling, Marseilles is the English spelling.
>And, of course, the original name was "Massalia"...
because it was Greek colony?
Oct 11th 2004, 1:08 pm
#9
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Posts: n/a
Marseille or Marseilles
Dans l'article <[email protected]>, "JX
Bardant" <[email protected]> a écrit :
> "Leland Windreich" <[email protected]> a écrit dans le message de news:
> 2nG9d.33229$a41.26362@pd7tw2no...
>> Why do we see both spellings, and what is the reason for them?
> Marseille is the French spelling, Marseilles is the English spelling.
One sees the same thing with Lyon/Lyons.
Donna Evleth
>
Bardant" <[email protected]> a écrit :
> "Leland Windreich" <[email protected]> a écrit dans le message de news:
> 2nG9d.33229$a41.26362@pd7tw2no...
>> Why do we see both spellings, and what is the reason for them?
> Marseille is the French spelling, Marseilles is the English spelling.
One sees the same thing with Lyon/Lyons.
Donna Evleth
>
Oct 11th 2004, 1:39 pm
#10
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Posts: n/a
Re: Marseille or Marseilles
On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 14:50:25 +0200, [email protected] wrote:
>On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 15:00:13 +0300, Stelios Zacharias
><[email protected]> wrote:
>>On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 11:23:34 +0200, "JX Bardant"
>><[email protected]> wrote:
>>>"Leland Windreich" <[email protected]> a ?crit dans le message de news:
>>>2nG9d.33229$a41.26362@pd7tw2no...
>>>> Why do we see both spellings, and what is the reason for them?
>>>Marseille is the French spelling, Marseilles is the English spelling.
>>And, of course, the original name was "Massalia"...
>because it was Greek colony?
Yep - harbour still has the old Greek name.
The city was home to Pytheas, who went further north than any
mediterranean of his day, even unto the frozen sea...
Stelios
--
The address in the headers is real and does not need de-mungeing
>On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 15:00:13 +0300, Stelios Zacharias
><[email protected]> wrote:
>>On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 11:23:34 +0200, "JX Bardant"
>><[email protected]> wrote:
>>>"Leland Windreich" <[email protected]> a ?crit dans le message de news:
>>>2nG9d.33229$a41.26362@pd7tw2no...
>>>> Why do we see both spellings, and what is the reason for them?
>>>Marseille is the French spelling, Marseilles is the English spelling.
>>And, of course, the original name was "Massalia"...
>because it was Greek colony?
Yep - harbour still has the old Greek name.
The city was home to Pytheas, who went further north than any
mediterranean of his day, even unto the frozen sea...
Stelios
--
The address in the headers is real and does not need de-mungeing
Oct 11th 2004, 1:42 pm
#11
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Posts: n/a
Re: Marseille or Marseilles
On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 16:39:47 +0300, Stelios Zacharias
<[email protected]> wrote:
>On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 14:50:25 +0200, [email protected] wrote:
>>On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 15:00:13 +0300, Stelios Zacharias
>><[email protected]> wrote:
>>>On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 11:23:34 +0200, "JX Bardant"
>>><[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>"Leland Windreich" <[email protected]> a ?crit dans le message de news:
>>>>2nG9d.33229$a41.26362@pd7tw2no...
>>>>> Why do we see both spellings, and what is the reason for them?
>>>>Marseille is the French spelling, Marseilles is the English spelling.
>>>And, of course, the original name was "Massalia"...
>>because it was Greek colony?
>Yep - harbour still has the old Greek name.
>The city was home to Pytheas, who went further north than any
>mediterranean of his day, even unto the frozen sea...
Pythea of the IJsselmeer? :-)
<[email protected]> wrote:
>On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 14:50:25 +0200, [email protected] wrote:
>>On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 15:00:13 +0300, Stelios Zacharias
>><[email protected]> wrote:
>>>On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 11:23:34 +0200, "JX Bardant"
>>><[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>"Leland Windreich" <[email protected]> a ?crit dans le message de news:
>>>>2nG9d.33229$a41.26362@pd7tw2no...
>>>>> Why do we see both spellings, and what is the reason for them?
>>>>Marseille is the French spelling, Marseilles is the English spelling.
>>>And, of course, the original name was "Massalia"...
>>because it was Greek colony?
>Yep - harbour still has the old Greek name.
>The city was home to Pytheas, who went further north than any
>mediterranean of his day, even unto the frozen sea...
Pythea of the IJsselmeer? :-)
Oct 11th 2004, 2:50 pm
#12
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Posts: n/a
Re: Marseille or Marseilles
"Donna Evleth" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Dans l'article
> <[email protected]>, "JX
> Bardant" <[email protected]> a écrit :
>> "Leland Windreich" <[email protected]> a écrit dans le message de
>> news:
>> 2nG9d.33229$a41.26362@pd7tw2no...
>>> Why do we see both spellings, and what is the reason for them?
>> Marseille is the French spelling, Marseilles is the English
>> spelling.
> One sees the same thing with Lyon/Lyons.
> Donna Evleth
I may have noted this before, but another example of English
preserving an older or variant version occurs in Chamonix. The
standard or Parisian pronunciation sounds the "x" but I remember
discussing this with the person from whom I rented an apartment there.
She, rather embarrassedly, admitted that she would say something very
like the English version: something like "shamoony". I believe this is
quite close to what it would have been in the version of Italian that
was spoken in the Savoie when it was annexed by France.
--
James V. Silverton
Potomac, Maryland, USA
news:[email protected]...
> Dans l'article
> <[email protected]>, "JX
> Bardant" <[email protected]> a écrit :
>> "Leland Windreich" <[email protected]> a écrit dans le message de
>> news:
>> 2nG9d.33229$a41.26362@pd7tw2no...
>>> Why do we see both spellings, and what is the reason for them?
>> Marseille is the French spelling, Marseilles is the English
>> spelling.
> One sees the same thing with Lyon/Lyons.
> Donna Evleth
I may have noted this before, but another example of English
preserving an older or variant version occurs in Chamonix. The
standard or Parisian pronunciation sounds the "x" but I remember
discussing this with the person from whom I rented an apartment there.
She, rather embarrassedly, admitted that she would say something very
like the English version: something like "shamoony". I believe this is
quite close to what it would have been in the version of Italian that
was spoken in the Savoie when it was annexed by France.
--
James V. Silverton
Potomac, Maryland, USA
Oct 11th 2004, 4:15 pm
#13
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Marseille or Marseilles
> >>why
> >>Bruges is also called Brugge by French and Dutch speakers in
> >>Belgium.
I remember when I lived in Japan for a long time, somebody asked me whether
Bruges was a Belgian or Dutch town....
I told that person that I never heard of such a city.
Later I found out that Brugge was called Bruges in English.
Giny
> >>Bruges is also called Brugge by French and Dutch speakers in
> >>Belgium.
I remember when I lived in Japan for a long time, somebody asked me whether
Bruges was a Belgian or Dutch town....
I told that person that I never heard of such a city.
Later I found out that Brugge was called Bruges in English.
Giny
Oct 11th 2004, 7:45 pm
#14
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Marseille or Marseilles
On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 18:15:56 +0200, "Giny"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>> >>why
>> >>Bruges is also called Brugge by French and Dutch speakers in
>> >>Belgium.
>I remember when I lived in Japan for a long time, somebody asked me whether
>Bruges was a Belgian or Dutch town....
>I told that person that I never heard of such a city.
>Later I found out that Brugge was called Bruges in English.
What do the Walloons call it?
<[email protected]> wrote:
>> >>why
>> >>Bruges is also called Brugge by French and Dutch speakers in
>> >>Belgium.
>I remember when I lived in Japan for a long time, somebody asked me whether
>Bruges was a Belgian or Dutch town....
>I told that person that I never heard of such a city.
>Later I found out that Brugge was called Bruges in English.
What do the Walloons call it?
Oct 13th 2004, 9:00 pm
#15
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Posts: n/a
Marseille or Marseilles
Dans l'article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] a écrit :
> On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 18:15:56 +0200, "Giny"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> >>why
>>> >>Bruges is also called Brugge by French and Dutch speakers in
>>> >>Belgium.
>>I remember when I lived in Japan for a long time, somebody asked me whether
>>Bruges was a Belgian or Dutch town....
>>I told that person that I never heard of such a city.
>>Later I found out that Brugge was called Bruges in English.
> What do the Walloons call it?
Bruges.
Donna Evleth
[email protected] a écrit :
> On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 18:15:56 +0200, "Giny"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> >>why
>>> >>Bruges is also called Brugge by French and Dutch speakers in
>>> >>Belgium.
>>I remember when I lived in Japan for a long time, somebody asked me whether
>>Bruges was a Belgian or Dutch town....
>>I told that person that I never heard of such a city.
>>Later I found out that Brugge was called Bruges in English.
> What do the Walloons call it?
Bruges.
Donna Evleth