On 2004-10-21 20:38:49 +0200, [email protected] said:

    > On Thu, 21 Oct 2004 17:04:33 +0000 (UTC), Martin Bienwald
    > <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >> Bill Moore wrote:
    >>> Go Fig wrote:
    >>
    >>>> Europeans perhaps have no idea what it takes to liberate people from
    >>>> dictatorships, but their own history books should note that until late
    >>>> '48... security was the still the number 1 problem in Germany. Seems
    >>>> there was all these young men killing off anyone who was trying to help
    >>>> transform the government to a representative body.
    >>>
    >>> That's an interesting point. How widespread a problem
    >>> was it, compared to what has happened in Iraq?
    >>
    >> So "widespread" that, as a German with some interest in recent German
    >> history, up to this day I've never heard it mentioned as a serious problem.
    >
    > It's the first I have heard of it too. Is this straight from the
    > ministry of disinformation?

Of course not - it must be true - Team B and Donald Rumsfeld say so!

J;

Note to UK readers - did you see the programme on Rumsfeld et al last night?
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In article <[email protected]>, Martin Bienwald
<[email protected]> wrote:

    > Go Fig schrieb:
    >
    > > Humm, so you don't know about the 'Werwolf' youth
    >
    > Yes, I know about it - but AFAIK it was near meaningless after May 1945.
    > It may have had some impact in the last months of the war, but most history
    > books describe it as an overall failure.


Of course it failed !!

But it was with some considerable success till it was eliminated.

Alexander Perry Biddiscombe,Werwolf!: The History of the National
Socialist Guerrilla Movement, 1944-1946

jay
Thu Oct 21, 2004
mailto:[email protected]


    >
    > > and the killings and
    > > constant threats against towards local people who stepped forward to
    > > help the new Germany...
    >
    > I'm certain there were some threats by old (and younger) Nazis, but I
    > haven't heard of more than a few actual killings.
    >
    > > to say nothing of the IED used against the
    > > Russians ?
    >
    > How many of these occurred after Germany had officially surrendered?
    >
    > ... Martin

On Thu, 21 Oct 2004 20:51:30 +0200, Jeremy Henderson <[email protected]>
wrote:

    >On 2004-10-21 20:38:49 +0200, [email protected] said:
    >> On Thu, 21 Oct 2004 17:04:33 +0000 (UTC), Martin Bienwald
    >> <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>
    >>> Bill Moore wrote:
    >>>> Go Fig wrote:
    >>>
    >>>>> Europeans perhaps have no idea what it takes to liberate people from
    >>>>> dictatorships, but their own history books should note that until late
    >>>>> '48... security was the still the number 1 problem in Germany. Seems
    >>>>> there was all these young men killing off anyone who was trying to help
    >>>>> transform the government to a representative body.
    >>>>
    >>>> That's an interesting point. How widespread a problem
    >>>> was it, compared to what has happened in Iraq?
    >>>
    >>> So "widespread" that, as a German with some interest in recent German
    >>> history, up to this day I've never heard it mentioned as a serious problem.
    >>
    >> It's the first I have heard of it too. Is this straight from the
    >> ministry of disinformation?
    >Of course not - it must be true - Team B and Donald Rumsfeld say so!

I noticed that google found that and also similar stuff from a neo
nazi group.
--
Martin

    >>Europeans perhaps have no idea what it takes to liberate people from
    >>dictatorships, but their own history books should note that until late
    >>'48... security was the still the number 1 problem in Germany. Seems
    >>there was all these young men killing off anyone who was trying to help
    >>transform the government to a representative body.
    >
    >
    > That's an interesting point. How widespread a problem
    > was it, compared to what has happened in Iraq?

Hi,

well when french troops were fired upon they generally shelled the town
the shots came from.

US occupation troops were more selective, they used rifles.

people soon got the idea that attacking the allies wasn't productive.

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Jeremy Henderson writes:

    > You need to look up the meaning of "ad hominem".

Not now that I have this illustration.

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In article <211020041216304391%[email protected]>, Go Fig <[email protected]> wrote:
    >In article <[email protected]>, Martin Bienwald
    ><[email protected]> wrote:
    >> Go Fig schrieb:
    >>
    >> > Humm, so you don't know about the 'Werwolf' youth
    >>
    >> Yes, I know about it - but AFAIK it was near meaningless after May 1945.
    >> It may have had some impact in the last months of the war, but most history
    >> books describe it as an overall failure.
    >Of course it failed !!
    >But it was with some considerable success till it was eliminated.
    >Alexander Perry Biddiscombe,Werwolf!: The History of the National
    >Socialist Guerrilla Movement, 1944-1946

Before you said it was up to '48. Now we seem to be down to '46.
What was the magnitude of it? This web page says they achieved
little. Was this really in any way comparable to what is happening
in Iraq?

http://www.portal-ns.com/thecensure/werwolf2.htm

    >>
    >> > and the killings and
    >> > constant threats against towards local people who stepped forward to
    >> > help the new Germany...
    >>
    >> I'm certain there were some threats by old (and younger) Nazis, but I
    >> haven't heard of more than a few actual killings.
    >>
    >> > to say nothing of the IED used against the
    >> > Russians ?
    >>
    >> How many of these occurred after Germany had officially surrendered?
    >>
    >> ... Martin

In article <[email protected]>, Bill Moore
<[email protected]> wrote:

    > In article <211020041216304391%[email protected]>, Go Fig <[email protected]> wrote:
    > >In article <[email protected]>, Martin Bienwald
    > ><[email protected]> wrote:
    > >
    > >> Go Fig schrieb:
    > >>
    > >> > Humm, so you don't know about the 'Werwolf' youth
    > >>
    > >> Yes, I know about it - but AFAIK it was near meaningless after May 1945.
    > >> It may have had some impact in the last months of the war, but most history
    > >> books describe it as an overall failure.
    > >
    > >
    > >Of course it failed !!
    > >
    > >But it was with some considerable success till it was eliminated.
    > >
    > >Alexander Perry Biddiscombe,Werwolf!: The History of the National
    > >Socialist Guerrilla Movement, 1944-1946
    >
    > Before you said it was up to '48. Now we seem to be down to '46.

That is where this author stopped, but the violence.


    > What was the magnitude of it? This web page says they achieved
    > little. Was this really in any way comparable to what is happening
    > in Iraq?

No, cause the Rules of Engagement were far different, if a sniper took
a shot in Germany, it was likely to be returned by a round from a
Sherman tank... in Iraq the U.S. does not have the same authority...
heck they won't even fire a rifle shot at a mosque that is letting
loose RPGs.

    >
    > http://www.portal-ns.com/thecensure/werwolf2.htm

Good grief, you site this as a source, you may want to look at the root
level of the URL....

http://www.portal-ns.com/thecensure/

Much of the information had been locked in USSR vaults, until the mid
90s.

jay
Thu Oct 21, 2004
mailto:[email protected]



    >
    > >
    > >>
    > >> > and the killings and
    > >> > constant threats against towards local people who stepped forward to
    > >> > help the new Germany...
    > >>
    > >> I'm certain there were some threats by old (and younger) Nazis, but I
    > >> haven't heard of more than a few actual killings.
    > >>
    > >> > to say nothing of the IED used against the
    > >> > Russians ?
    > >>
    > >> How many of these occurred after Germany had officially surrendered?
    > >>
    > >> ... Martin
    >

    > Odd, how come it's not in dagbladet's online page then? Could you
    > provide a link?

I also did a quick search and could not find that article. Unfortunate
that the cafe where I meet friends and I read the article also carried
many other newspapers. Although I had believe the article was in
Dagbladet. Could it have been the Dagens Nyheter or the Dala-Demokraten?


    > Rather odd, most of the news I see in Europe highlights how Kerry,
    > like all American politicians is weel to the right of most of Europe,
    > and is certainly not socialist.

It is to be most interesting that the political position of your Mr.
Kerry is ignored by his campaign and by the US press. And it must be
acceptable in this country for candidate to run against their politics.
In the voting to which I am aware it is more common for one to try and
determine which candidate will be willing to leave us the most money
after our payday.

On 2004-10-21 23:52:30 +0200, Mxsmanic <[email protected]> said:

    > Jeremy Henderson writes:
    >
    >> You need to look up the meaning of "ad hominem".
    >
    > Not now that I have this illustration.

http://www.just****inggoogleit.com/s...tum+ad+hominem

J;

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On 21 Oct 2004 18:52:20 -0600, [email protected] (Bill Moore)
wrote:

    >In article <211020041216304391%[email protected]>, Go Fig <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>In article <[email protected]>, Martin Bienwald
    >><[email protected]> wrote:
    >>> Go Fig schrieb:
    >>>
    >>> > Humm, so you don't know about the 'Werwolf' youth
    >>>
    >>> Yes, I know about it - but AFAIK it was near meaningless after May 1945.
    >>> It may have had some impact in the last months of the war, but most history
    >>> books describe it as an overall failure.
    >>Of course it failed !!
    >>But it was with some considerable success till it was eliminated.
    >>Alexander Perry Biddiscombe,Werwolf!: The History of the National
    >>Socialist Guerrilla Movement, 1944-1946
    >Before you said it was up to '48. Now we seem to be down to '46.
    >What was the magnitude of it? This web page says they achieved
    >little. Was this really in any way comparable to what is happening
    >in Iraq?
    >http://www.portal-ns.com/thecensure/werwolf2.htm

If you go up a level http://www.portal-ns.com/thecensure/ you will see
that this is a neo nazi website. I'd take what's presented there with
a large pinch of salt.
--
Martin

Go Fig schrieb:

    > No, cause the Rules of Engagement were far different, if a sniper took
    > a shot in Germany, it was likely to be returned by a round from a
    > Sherman tank...

I think we'd know if many rounds from Sherman tanks would have been fired
*after* the capitulation. So either there weren't many snipers around or
the Allies had other ways to handle them. (I guess both.)

    > heck they won't even fire a rifle shot at a mosque that is letting
    > loose RPGs.

Because they know it won't help?

    > Much of the information had been locked in USSR vaults, until the mid
    > 90s.

If guerrilla attacks on Allied troops had been a serious problem after
1945, I'm certain this information would be available from other sources
than USSR vaults, e.g. from US, UK or French reports.

... Martin

anonymous schrieb:

    > well when french troops were fired upon they generally shelled the town
    > the shots came from.

During the war, of course. I don't know of any towns being shelled after
Germany capitulated in May 1945.

... Martin

On Thu, 21 Oct 2004 09:36:20 -0700, Go Fig <[email protected]> wrote:

    >Europeans perhaps have no idea what it takes to liberate people from
    >dictatorships,

More dictatorships have fallen in Europe than anywhere else, you
ignorant peanut! The whole of eastern Europe was a series of
dictatorships! Count 'em!

Let me guess, you believe it takes a full scale invasion, with lots of
bombs and destruction to liberate people, yes? And you believe the
problems in Iraq are due to inadequate use of firepower?

    > but their own history books should note that until late
    >'48... security was the still the number 1 problem in Germany. Seems
    >there was all these young men killing off anyone who was trying to help
    >transform the government to a representative body.

You mention this often Jay, but no-one seems to be particularly aware
of any widespread problems. Just how many people were dying on a daily
basis there? More than in Iraq? I think not.

And as usual, I bet you cannot provide a cite for your claim.
---
DFM

On Thu, 21 Oct 2004 20:22:48 -0700, Go Fig <[email protected]> wrote:

    >In article <[email protected]>, Bill Moore
    ><[email protected]> wrote:

    >> What was the magnitude of it? This web page says they achieved
    >> little. Was this really in any way comparable to what is happening
    >> in Iraq?
    >No,

So why the hell do you keep comparing them you silly sausage! Over and
over again you keep comparing post-war Germany to 'post-war' Iraq, and
now finally you admit they are not comparable!!!

    >cause the Rules of Engagement were far different, if a sniper took
    >a shot in Germany, it was likely to be returned by a round from a
    >Sherman tank... in Iraq the U.S. does not have the same authority...
    >heck they won't even fire a rifle shot at a mosque that is letting
    >loose RPGs.

What 'authority' is the US answering to, pray tell, Jay? Oh, yeah,
it's ABSOLUTELY NONE WHATSOEVER.

For the sake of the gene pool, Jay, please don't breed.
---
DFM

Deep Frayed Morgues <[email protected]> wrote:
    > Go Fig <[email protected]> wrote:
    >> Europeans perhaps have no idea what it takes to liberate people from
    >> dictatorships,
    > More dictatorships have fallen in Europe than anywhere else, you
    > ignorant peanut! The whole of eastern Europe was a series of
    > dictatorships! Count 'em!

I think you're missing the point. Those people in Europe are still living
under the thumbs of despotic dictatorships - they have national health
insurance. Only Americans are truly free.

miguel
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