In article <[email protected] >,
[email protected] (brenda) wrote:

    > Do people think Europeans are so ignorant they do not know
    > the polls are 50/50 Kerry vs. Bush, and that we have two major
    > political parties, so obviously all Americans are definitely not in
    > the firmly behind Bush brigade? Trust me, they know a whole lot more
    > about our political systems than many US citizens do!

Whenever Bush goes to Europe, he draws a lot of protest. That does seem
unique among presidents.

It started with Kyoto, the anti-missile treaty, American Exceptionalism
and continued right to Iraq.

On Sat, 03 Jul 2004 14:53:37 +0200, B Vaughan<[email protected]> wrote:

    >On Fri, 02 Jul 2004 23:00:42 GMT, [email protected] (Charles
    >Hawtrey) wrote:
    >> ... If you read the local language
    >>you may see anti-American editorials and letters to the editor.
    >I regularly read magazines and newspapers in Italian. I don't remember
    >ever reading anything anti-American although I have read a lot of
    >editorials and letters opposed to the policies of the current
    >administration.

The original question was specifically about Italy; I think Italy may
be different from France and the UK in this respect, mainly because so
many Italians have relatives in the US.

-----------
Barbara Vaughan
My email address is my first initial followed by my surname at libero dot it
I answer travel questions only in the newsgroup

"poldy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news[email protected]...

    > That's like people who complain about the French being rude or snooty.


I've lived in France for two years now and the French are the most polite
group of people I have yet encountered. If one holds to French norms of
politeness, public interactions can be very pleasant and daily tasks such as
shopping are not at all stressful. At the same time the French are very
private and do not readily welcome strangers into their homes the way that
some nationalities do.

I have never met a French person who was fond of Mr. Bush, however, they do
not hold it against the American people for having "elected" him.

Lana

"Pittsburgh bound" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

    > An officemate of my wife's recently returned from 2 weeks in Italy.
    > Report much hostility towards Americans. Thoughts or recent
    > experiences?
    >
    > Thinking of Italy in Sept.


hostile to Americans: generally, no.

disagree with US Government international issues: some yes, strongly, most
don't care.

but then, we're kept busy enough by OUR government and the failure in Euro
2004 soccer champ.

--
ho cambiato e-mail: aggiorna i Worm sul tuo PC

    > And at the risk of starting yet another flame war, the Soviets beat the
    > Nazis in WWII. According to the BBC, 93% of Nazi casualties were
    > due to the Soviets. See http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3777161.stm
    >
Not Really. It was only the economical and industrial power of US which
could beat economical and industrial power of Germany and Japan.

Giacomo discover.it wrote:

    >
    >> And at the risk of starting yet another flame war, the Soviets beat the
    >> Nazis in WWII. According to the BBC, 93% of Nazi casualties were
    >> due to the Soviets. See http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3777161.stm
    > Not Really. It was only the economical and industrial power of US which
    > could beat economical and industrial power of Germany and Japan.
    >

this sort of argument is ultimatley feckless -- the US tipped the
balance -- but without the mistake of Hitler in attacking the Sovs who
then absorbed much of Nazi resources then the Nazis would have won. In
fact without Hitler's poor military leadership in the weeks leading up
to D Day, that effort itself might have failed.

Without the Soviet Union acting as a giant sponge of death and without
the US providing the renewed supplies at the end of the war, the Nazis
would have won

szozu wrote:

    > "poldy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news[email protected]...
    >
    >
    >>That's like people who complain about the French being rude or snooty.
    >
    >
    >
    > I've lived in France for two years now and the French are the most polite
    > group of people I have yet encountered. If one holds to French norms of
    > politeness, public interactions can be very pleasant and daily tasks such as
    > shopping are not at all stressful. At the same time the French are very
    > private and do not readily welcome strangers into their homes the way that
    > some nationalities do.
    >
    > I have never met a French person who was fond of Mr. Bush, however, they do
    > not hold it against the American people for having "elected" him.

Out of curiosity, have you met ANYONE, ANYWHERE (except the all too many
uninformed citizens of the U.S.) who IS fond of him? I was in Europe
in December, 2001 - at that time, everyone was laughing at the Great
American Comedy, but of course 9/11 changed all that. (It took real
talent on GWB's part to change the nearly universal sympathy toward the
U.S. that prevailed, then, into the current "regard" in which they hold us!)

On Sun, 04 Jul 2004 12:35:55 -0500, jenn <[email protected]> wrote:

    >Without the Soviet Union acting as a giant sponge of death and without
    >the US providing the renewed supplies at the end of the war, the Nazis
    >would have won

Not in the end. The Germans did not have the atomic bomb.

Gordon

Gordon Forbess <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

    > On Sun, 04 Jul 2004 12:35:55 -0500, jenn <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >>Without the Soviet Union acting as a giant sponge of death and without
    >>the US providing the renewed supplies at the end of the war, the Nazis
    >>would have won
    >
    > Not in the end. The Germans did not have the atomic bomb.
    >
    > Gordon
    >

The death sponge had already worked its damage and the Germans could hve
had one they had jet fighters and those alone could hve make a difference
if the Germans had a little less drain two years earlier.

    > this sort of argument is ultimatley feckless .....
    > Without the Soviet Union acting as a giant sponge of death and
    > without the US providing the renewed supplies at the end of the war

By the time of the Normandy invasion in June 1944, the Soviets had
already thrown the Nazis out of the USSR. Late 1942 and early 1943
showed the world how the Nazis were beaten at Stalingrad. The middle
of 1943 showed the world the devastating defeat of the Nazis at Kursk.
Yes, the Soviets were a giant sponge of death but that does not change
the simple fact that the Soviets would have beaten the Nazis without
American help, with obvious implications for post-war Europe. By the
way, the only real help we gave the Soviets were trucks and food.
Our tanks were the joke of the war, especially given that the Soviet
T-34 was the best medium tank of the war.

You and Giacomo have fallen victim to the propaganda of the Cold
War. The Soviets largely won the land war in Europe and the USA
won the Pacific war. Even Churchill, no friend of Uncle Joe, admitted
that "the Red Army tore the guts out of the Nazi war machine." If
Stalin had not purged his army of the best generals on the eve of WWII
it is entirely conceivable that the Nazis would have been stopped long
before they reached Moscow, Leningrad, and Stalingrad. Try reading
some history instead of getting your information from movies.


Casey

In article <[email protected]>, jcoulter
<[email protected]> wrote:

    > Gordon Forbess <[email protected]> wrote in
    > news:[email protected]:
    >
    > > On Sun, 04 Jul 2004 12:35:55 -0500, jenn <[email protected]> wrote:
    > >
    > >>Without the Soviet Union acting as a giant sponge of death and without
    > >>the US providing the renewed supplies at the end of the war, the Nazis
    > >>would have won
    > >
    > > Not in the end. The Germans did not have the atomic bomb.
    > >
    > > Gordon
    > >
    >
    > The death sponge had already worked its damage and the Germans could hve
    > had one they had jet fighters and those alone could hve make a difference
    > if the Germans had a little less drain two years earlier.


and they didn't have the pilots or the fuel....

... shoulda', coulda'... woulda'

jay
Sun Jul 04, 2004
mailto:[email protected]

"Casey" <[email protected]> wrote in news:%dZFc.5393$oD3.5209
@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net:


By the
    > way, the only real help we gave the Soviets were trucks and food.
    > Our tanks were the joke of the war, especially given that the Soviet
    > T-34 was the best medium tank of the war.
    >

Hey the US gasoline powered tanks made real nice torches. Not a nice truth
but a truth none the less

On Sun, 04 Jul 2004 14:48:42 -0500, jcoulter
<[email protected]> wrote:

    >The death sponge had already worked its damage and the Germans could hve
    >had one

The German bomb would not have happened for a number of reasons.
Conceptual errors, lack of infrastructure to produce it, and
persecution of the (mostly Jewish) scientific community they needed.

    >they had jet fighters and those alone could hve make a difference
    >if the Germans had a little less drain two years earlier.

Prolonged, maybe. Without the bomb, the end is unchanged.

Gordon

Gordon Forbess <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:



    >
    >>they had jet fighters and those alone could hve make a difference
    >>if the Germans had a little less drain two years earlier.
    >
    > Prolonged, maybe. Without the bomb, the end is unchanged.
    >
    > Gordon
    >

Jets would have regained air supremacy and without a delivery system the
Bomb would have not made as much difference.

jcoulter <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

    > Gordon Forbess <[email protected]> wrote in
    > news:[email protected]:
    >
    >
    >
    >>
    >>>they had jet fighters and those alone could hve make a difference
    >>>if the Germans had a little less drain two years earlier.
    >>
    >> Prolonged, maybe. Without the bomb, the end is unchanged.
    >>
    >> Gordon
    >>
    >
    > Jets would have regained air supremacy and without a delivery system the
    > Bomb would have not made as much difference.
    >

But as go ifg said should a would a could a and they did and we did so
there