I've been trying to learn some Irish on my last few visits (by the
primitive expedient of looking up words in a pocket dictionary and hoping
some stick) and, basically, I'm getting nowhere.

I've picked up a bit of vocabulary but I'm still clueless about the
structure of the language, and I'm hopelessly confused by suffixes!

Has anyone here tried to learn Irish? What books did you use? Do any of
the Irish people here have kids at school learning the language, and if so
what are their textbooks?

In article , [email protected]
writes

    >Has anyone here tried to learn Irish? What books did you use? Do any of
    >the Irish people here have kids at school learning the language, and if so
    >what are their textbooks?

I agree that the resources available on the web are pretty scarce.

I learned Gaelic at grammar school in Northern Ireland - at my school it
was compulsory until O level and I continued classes at A level, but
then switched to Maths after a month or two.

From the ages of 12-14 I spent three and a half weeks of each summer
holiday at a Gaelteacht, boarding with Gaelic speaking families and
attending Irish language classes during the day.

In the afternoons we'd have some activity such as learning songs in
Irish language, swimming, hill walking or learning to dance for the
ceilidhs we had every evening. As I'd been to Irish dance classes and
taken part in dancing competitions when I was younger, I picked it up
easily and was chosen to join a troupe of students who would put on
dancing exhibitions for the tourists in the local hotels. It was very
enjoyable but I have to say I was no Michael Flatley!

I've long ago lost/sold all the school textbooks I ever had, but I can
ask my nephews, who might still be learning it, if they can give me the
titles of the books they're using.

--
congokid
Eating out in London? Read my tips...
http://congokid.com

Barney,

This is the website of Bord na Gaeilge. Plenty of info here and they
have Englinsh translations so you'll know what they are telling you:-)

http://www.bnag.ie/

Try emailing Conradh na Gaeilge at [email protected]

They will be more than willing to help you.

This site may also be of use:

http://www.geocities.com/paris/3437/gaelfaq.html

On Fri, 21 Feb 2003 18:48:07 +0000 (UTC), [email protected]
wrote:

    >I've been trying to learn some Irish on my last few visits (by the
    >primitive expedient of looking up words in a pocket dictionary and hoping
    >some stick) and, basically, I'm getting nowhere.
    >I've picked up a bit of vocabulary but I'm still clueless about the
    >structure of the language, and I'm hopelessly confused by suffixes!
    >Has anyone here tried to learn Irish? What books did you use? Do any of
    >the Irish people here have kids at school learning the language, and if so
    >what are their textbooks?

[email protected] wrote:

    >I've been trying to learn some Irish on my last few visits (by the
    >primitive expedient of looking up words in a pocket dictionary and hoping
    >some stick) and, basically, I'm getting nowhere.
Understandable. Irish is, at a very fundamental level, quite different
from English.

    >I've picked up a bit of vocabulary but I'm still clueless about the
    >structure of the language, and I'm hopelessly confused by suffixes!
Irish is a fully-inflected language, where nouns and adjectives change
form according to case. Further, there is no one way of indicating
plurals. There are irregular verbs (eleven of them, but generally the
ones most commonly used) and nouns that do not conform fully to any of
the five declensions. How would you figure that "mná" is the plural of
"bean" (woman)? And how might you figure how they are pronounced? (It
varies with dialect, which simply adds to the confusion).

    >Has anyone here tried to learn Irish?
Yes. But "here" is a tricky issue in usenet. My "here" is Ireland. I
was educated through Irish, and have reasonable fluency.

    >What books did you use? Do any of
    >the Irish people here have kids at school learning the language, and if so
    >what are their textbooks?
Irish is a compulsory school subject here, both at primary and second
level. Many Irish people complete twelve years of schooling without
achieving fluency.

I don't want to be discouraging. People outside Ireland have succeeded
to an impressive extent in learning the language, and I applaud them.

As to books and materials, those that I used in my schooldays are
unlikely to be useful to you. They would require the intervention of a
teacher to mediate them for you. Look for a work by Micheál O
Siadhail, entitled (if my memory does not let me down) "Learning
Irish". I think that there are tapes available to accompany it. Set
aside lots of time, and don't expect too much of yourself. If you
achieve some level of proficiency, don't expect that all Irish people
will be able to reward you by conducting conversation with you in
Irish.

Go n-éirí le d'iarracht (May your effort succeed).

PB

On Fri, 21 Feb 2003 19:27:09 +0000, Adrian
wrote:

    >Barney,
    >This is the website of Bord na Gaeilge. Plenty of info here and they
    >have Englinsh translations so you'll know what they are telling you:-)
    >http://www.bnag.ie/
    >Try emailing Conradh na Gaeilge at [email protected]
    >They will be more than willing to help you.
    >This site may also be of use:
    >http://www.geocities.com/paris/3437/gaelfaq.html
    >On Fri, 21 Feb 2003 18:48:07 +0000 (UTC), [email protected]
    >wrote:
    >>I've been trying to learn some Irish on my last few visits (by the
    >>primitive expedient of looking up words in a pocket dictionary and hoping
    >>some stick) and, basically, I'm getting nowhere.
    >>I've picked up a bit of vocabulary but I'm still clueless about the
    >>structure of the language, and I'm hopelessly confused by suffixes!

Most difficult thing (I find) with all Celtic languages is mutation -
where the first letter of a word changes according to how it's used
grammatically (and gender and phonetic properties) - so in Welsh, the
capital of Wales (Cardiff) is Caerdydd - but if I say "Welcome to
Cardiiff" it becomes Croeso y Gaerdydd - and I've seen a phonetic
mutation where it becomes ng'aerdydd (or something similar).

I give up with Irish pronunciation!
    >>Has anyone here tried to learn Irish? What books did you use? Do any of
    >>the Irish people here have kids at school learning the language, and if so
    >>what are their textbooks?

In article ,
[email protected] (Adrian) wrote:

    > Barney,
    >
    > This is the website of Bord na Gaeilge. Plenty of info here and they
    > have Englinsh translations so you'll know what they are telling you:-)
    >
Brilliant, thanks. I even know what Bord na Gaeilge means.

In article , [email protected]
(Padraig Breathnach) wrote:

    > Irish is a compulsory school subject here, both at primary and second
    > level. Many Irish people complete twelve years of schooling without
    > achieving fluency.
    >
    > I don't want to be discouraging. People outside Ireland have succeeded
    > to an impressive extent in learning the language, and I applaud them.

Oh, don't worry, I don't aspire to anything close to fluency -- it's
simply that I visit Ireland often (I've also considered moving there), and
it's frustrating to be surrounded by any language that's a completely
closed book to one.

    > If you
    > achieve some level of proficiency, don't expect that all Irish people
    > will be able to reward you by conducting conversation with you in
    > Irish.

I'm actually more interested in reading than speaking the language, which
of course is always easier.

Thanks for the tips!

"Padraig Breathnach" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > [email protected] wrote:
    > >I've been trying to learn some Irish on my last few visits (by the
    > >primitive expedient of looking up words in a pocket dictionary and hoping
    > >some stick) and, basically, I'm getting nowhere.
    > >
    > Understandable. Irish is, at a very fundamental level, quite different
    > from English.
    > >I've picked up a bit of vocabulary but I'm still clueless about the
    > >structure of the language, and I'm hopelessly confused by suffixes!
    > >
    > Irish is a fully-inflected language, where nouns and adjectives change
    > form according to case. Further, there is no one way of indicating
    > plurals. There are irregular verbs (eleven of them, but generally the
    > ones most commonly used) and nouns that do not conform fully to any of
    > the five declensions. How would you figure that "mná" is the plural of
    > "bean" (woman)? And how might you figure how they are pronounced? (It
    > varies with dialect, which simply adds to the confusion).
    > >Has anyone here tried to learn Irish?
    > >
    > Yes. But "here" is a tricky issue in usenet. My "here" is Ireland. I
    > was educated through Irish, and have reasonable fluency.
    > >What books did you use? Do any of
    > >the Irish people here have kids at school learning the language, and if
so
    > >what are their textbooks?
    > >
    > Irish is a compulsory school subject here, both at primary and second
    > level. Many Irish people complete twelve years of schooling without
    > achieving fluency.

Yes.. its a sad state of affairs that we can leave school at 18 after 14
years of learning Irish and 5 years of French and be more fluent in French.
Most of us who went through it found Irish difficult because of the
compunction element plus most of the texts were fairly depressing (anyone
remember Peig - it was a sunny day but I knew that soon a cloud would come
and spoil it all and burn the dinner). That was in the 80s and I know that
the texts are more up to the minute at the moment. Another problem was the
insistence on learning the grammar first which can make the whole learning
effort a pain. And don´t mention the variety of accents - I remember once
having teacher who had Donegal Irish - us Munster heads couldn´t figure her
out..

Des

In article , Des O'Donoghue
writes

    > And don´t mention the variety of accents - I remember once
    >having teacher who had Donegal Irish - us Munster heads couldn´t figure her
    >out..

I learned my Gaelic in Tyrone, but I had difficulty understanding the
language as it was spoken by native speakers in the Donegal Gaeltacht,
never mind the kids from Cork and Dublin.

According to my dictionary the regional differences in pronunciation of
Gaelic, when it was a major language in Ireland, have carried over to
pronunciation of the English language, and are the main reason why
people from Cork, Dublin and Belfast now have different accents.

I can't check the reference as the book is in the office and I'm posting
from home.
--
congokid
Eating out in London? Read my tips...
http://congokid.com

"Des O'Donoghue" wrote
    | Yes.. its a sad state of affairs that we can leave school at 18 after 14
    | years of learning Irish and 5 years of French and be more fluent in
French.

A depressingly large number of children in Britain seem to be able to leave
school without achieving fluency in any language, except perhaps 'txt'.

    | Most of us who went through it found Irish difficult because of the
    | compunction element plus most of the texts were fairly depressing (anyone
    | remember Peig - it was a sunny day but I knew that soon a cloud would come
    | and spoil it all and burn the dinner).

I remember learning Welsh in the 1980s from textbooks called "Contemporary
Welsh" and still having to learn the Welsh for all the pre-decimal coinage.
And I shall never forget the Yes and No answers to "Oes mae tegell ar y
teledu?" [Is there a kettle on the television?]

Here in Scotland we get a Gaeilge soap opera subtitled into Gaelic - Ros na
Rún you call it? - on TeleG (Freeview digital)

Owain

On Fri, 21 Feb 2003 18:48:07 +0000 (UTC), [email protected]
wrote:

    >I've been trying to learn some Irish on my last few visits (by the
    >primitive expedient of looking up words in a pocket dictionary and hoping
    >some stick) and, basically, I'm getting nowhere.
    >I've picked up a bit of vocabulary but I'm still clueless about the
    >structure of the language, and I'm hopelessly confused by suffixes!
    >Has anyone here tried to learn Irish? What books did you use? Do any of
    >the Irish people here have kids at school learning the language, and if so
    >what are their textbooks?

I learned Irish many many years ago at school in Dublin. It was
compulsory because you couldn't pass the major state examinations
without it. Even then it was questionable as to why we had to learn
it because very few people spoke it at all. Only in the Gaelteacht
(a small community where Irish or "Gaeilge" is commonly spoken) would
you find it regularly used. People who wished to progress in the
language used to go and holiday or study in the Gaelteacht to improve
their skills.

It is no longer a compulsory state language but it is studied and
spoken in certain sections of the community ( where I suspect it is
seen more as a means of delineating national identity and of linking
into Irish culture and history rather than as the only proper means of
communication).

Having said that, I have a friend who was educated at an Irish-only
speaking school and she always maintained that Geometry was easier to
understand in Irish than in English.

I have forgotten most of my Irish which is a great pity. However,
the reason is mostly because I never used it to hold a conversation -
ever!!

I tend to view learning Irish now in the same category as learning
Dutch. Yes I would love to learn Dutch because it would add so much
more to my visits to Netherlands. However, looking at it
practically - the language is relatively difficult to learn and to
pronounce (try simple things like gracht and Scheviningen), most of
the population speak very good english, and I believe I would cause
less offense by recognising their English skills than in trying to
inflict my poor dutch skills on them.

In Ireland this problem is very much more exaggerated because the day
to day language spoken in the country is English. I would be
prepared to bet that even those who choose to use Irish at home or in
school or in work also speak perfect english. Just look at Padraig
who shares a lot in this newsgroup. The spelling of his name leads
me to believe he is an Irish speaker but as we can all see he writes
(and I bet speaks) English perfectly. Sorry Padraig for using you
as an example.

Regarding the structure of the language, it is one of the most
logical there is. The verb always comes at the beginning of the
sentence and the words are always pronounced as they are spelt (when
you use the native Gaelic alphabet that is).

The written Gaelic alphabet has its own letter shape. The alphabet
corresponds mostly to the english alphabet with some differences
(there is no "k" only a hard "c" and no letters after "u"). Perhaps
a loose comparison could be made with the greek alphabet where we
could recognise the alpha as looking like our "a" and the beta "b"
and the epsilon as "e" etc.

The Gaelic alphabet also has letters with single dots over them
b-dot, m-dot etc ( compare with the german umlaut). These dots
signify case - eg genetive or dative case etc. So where "baile" is
the Gaelic word for home (from which we get our place names starting
with Bally - as in Ballykissangel), the expression "at home" would
be "a b(with a dot over it)aile".

Nowadays most text is typed or printed. There aren't enough
Gaelic-only speakers in the world to justify separate fonts so you
frequently see Gaelic represented in what is called the Clo Romhanach
or roman script. This uses the letter "h" to mean a dot over the
previous letter ( c/f the german umlaut and the frequent use of "oe"
to depict this). So the girl's name Siobhan is actually Siob(with
a dot over it) an. Now "b" (with a dot over it) is usually
pronounced as a "v" and the "a" in gaelic is a long sound so Siobhan
would actually be pronounced as She-vawn (where "she" is pronounced
as in "the")

Still with me? ..... )

Sometimes "b" with a dot over it can also be pronounced like a "w" so
the expression at home "a bhaile" would be pronounced like "ah wal
-ye" ("ye" as in "the" ).

To top that you have dialects. I learned Leinster Irish and it was
sometimes hard to understand those who learned Ulster Irish or Munster
Irish.

The long and the short of it is, I contemplated for a while trying
to recover my lost Irish (bought the dictionary etc) and also to
learn dutch but I decided that it was totally unnecessary in either
case unless I was planning to live in a place where it was the only
language spoken.

In Ireland you will be very hard pressed to find such a place.


Derek McBryde

(in Irish my nearest equivalent name would be Donnchad Mac Giolla
Bride. Mac means "son of" and Giolla means "the servant of". It
would be unthinkable to call yourself the son of a saint , in this
case St Bride or St Bridgit, so you take the more polite form of "son
of the servant of" . If giolla sounds familiar, it is the word
from which we get the scottish word "ghilly".)

    >Irish is a fully-inflected language, where nouns and adjectives change
    >form according to case. Further, there is no one way of indicating
    >plurals. There are irregular verbs (eleven of them, but generally the
    >ones most commonly used) and nouns that do not conform fully to any of
    >the five declensions. How would you figure that "mná" is the plural of
    >"bean" (woman)? And how might you figure how they are pronounced? (It
    >varies with dialect, which simply adds to the confusion).
Not to mention the element of motion )

If you are saying goodbye to someone and you are the one going and
they are the one staying, you would say "slán agat" and they
would say "slán leat" meaning roughly health be "at" you and
health be "with" you respectively. Same applies to words like "up"
which can be "suas" or "anuas" depending on where you are viewing
from.

One thing I did learn was the Irish National Anthem in Irish -
needed to sing that at all the Rugby internationals at Landsdowne
Road.

Derek

On Sat, 22 Feb 2003 15:00:50 -0000, "Des O'Donoghue"

    >Yes.. its a sad state of affairs that we can leave school at 18 after 14
    >years of learning Irish and 5 years of French and be more fluent in French.
    >Most of us who went through it found Irish difficult because of the
    >compunction element plus most of the texts were fairly depressing (anyone
    >remember Peig - it was a sunny day but I knew that soon a cloud would come
    >and spoil it all and burn the dinner). That was in the 80s and I know that
    >the texts are more up to the minute at the moment. Another problem was the
    >insistence on learning the grammar first which can make the whole learning
    >effort a pain. And don´t mention the variety of accents - I remember once
    >having teacher who had Donegal Irish - us Munster heads couldn´t figure her
    >out..
    >Des

Good old Peig Sayers. I did that in school for Leaving Cert. Not
many people sold into service these days

Derek

Derek McBryde wrote:

    >I learned Irish many many years ago at school in Dublin.



    >I have forgotten most of my Irish which is a great pity.



For somebody who has forgotten his Irish, you do well! How would it be
if you remembered it?

PB

"Derek McBryde" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > >Irish is a fully-inflected language, where nouns and adjectives change
    > >form according to case. Further, there is no one way of indicating
    > >plurals. There are irregular verbs (eleven of them, but generally the
    > >ones most commonly used) and nouns that do not conform fully to any of
    > >the five declensions. How would you figure that "mná" is the plural of
    > >"bean" (woman)? And how might you figure how they are pronounced? (It
    > >varies with dialect, which simply adds to the confusion).
    > >
    > Not to mention the element of motion )
    > If you are saying goodbye to someone and you are the one going and
    > they are the one staying, you would say "slán agat" and they
    > would say "slán leat" meaning roughly health be "at" you and
    > health be "with" you respectively. Same applies to words like "up"
    > which can be "suas" or "anuas" depending on where you are viewing
    > from.
    > One thing I did learn was the Irish National Anthem in Irish -
    > needed to sing that at all the Rugby internationals at Landsdowne
    > Road.

Not no more.. now we have that abomination "Ireland´s Call"...