Magda wrote:

    > February, May and September.

Not necessarily. The first year you pay the whole sum in september, then
you can chose to pay 10% each month from january so october, or 1/3 in
Frebruary, May and September.

JL.

Anonymouse wrote:

    > but you have to ad the 19.6% vat...

No. First you only pay VAT on the goods and services you buy, not on your
savings or rent, and then many of them have a reduced rate of 5,5% or less
(food, electricity, books,...).

JL.

On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 23:33:15 +0100, in rec.travel.europe, "JL" <[email protected]> arranged
some electrons, so they looked like this :

... Magda wrote:
...
... > February, May and September.
...
... Not necessarily. The first year you pay the whole sum in september, then
... you can chose to pay 10% each month from january so october, or 1/3 in
... Frebruary, May and September.

Hell will freeze over the day I give them my money before I owe it.

The Rev Gaston writes:

    > Bear in mind also that the French taxman will double tax your income
    > from abroad.

No. In general, foreign income is included when determining the
applicable tax rate for domestic income, but the foreign income itself
is not taxed.

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In article <[email protected]>, "JL" <[email protected]>
wrote:

    > Magda wrote:
    >
    > > February, May and September.
    >
    > Not necessarily. The first year you pay the whole sum in september, then
    > you can chose to pay 10% each month from january so october, or 1/3 in
    > Frebruary, May and September.
    >
    > JL.

Employers don't withhold taxes?

On 2005-01-12 06:13:09 +0100, Mxsmanic <[email protected]> said:

    > The Rev Gaston writes:
    >
    >> Bear in mind also that the French taxman will double tax your income
    >> from abroad.
    >
    > No. In general, foreign income is included when determining the
    > applicable tax rate for domestic income, but the foreign income itself
    > is not taxed.

Indeed - I am aware of that little deceit, but the result is the same.
A distinction without a difference.

G
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in article [email protected], Magda at
[email protected] wrote on 11/01/05 18:24:

    > ... The gimmick is that you make a declaration for last year's income this
    > year
    > ... and the final tax bill shows up in September as a big bill.
    > ...
    > ... Earl
    >
    > February, May and September.


That is on a ongoing basis. However, the first year`s taxes don`t show up
until around September of the following year. From then on one pays
them in three stages or one can chose a monthly deduction for the first
10 months. We have ours set up that way, including the taxe d'habitation
and fonciere. These are removing the 15th of each month. We set up our
EDF-GDF bills on the same basis.

The income tax situation differs from the US in that there one must estimate
the taxes due during the year which will be taxed and make a quarterly
payment, mid January, April June and September for that income not covered
by one`s payroll deduction.

The French system theoretically would "allow" a person to skip the country
without paying taxes. But the US might also have a problem pursuing a person
who did not file his quarterly tax estimation or even a return if they left
permanently. I knew a Frenchman who did this, skipped owing taxes
on a 2 million dollar capital gains from the sale of a business. This was
years ago. In France the notaire will hold money to pay the taxes on a
real estate capital gains of a foreigner.

Earl



Earl

in article [email protected], Anonymouse at [email protected]
wrote on 11/01/05 22:17:

    >
    > Hi,
    >
    > let's say a touch over 8 weeks (makes the math easier)... 2 months...
    > 1/6 of the year or about 16.6%
    >
    > but you have to ad the 19.6% vat...

On what? On some things you buy. Food is not taxed at this rate.

If you don't buy you don't get hit with a TVA tax.

Earl

in article [email protected], poldy at
[email protected] wrote on 12/01/05 7:10:

    > Employers don't withhold taxes?

No, one is directly responsible to pay up.

Since I have been retired for years I will reveal my French pay slip from
1996, what is held out, what is the final taxable income. I have a position
with the French civil service, which gives you a housing allowance for high
rent areas (not enough).

For a monthly base salary of about 26,000 francs the added
about 800 for housing yielding a revised base of nearly 27,000

From this they deducted----

CRDS 126 francs
CSG 606 francs (these two taxes were to cover the hole in the
social security budget) are about 3% of the total taxes

The social security health insurance was 6% or 1560 francs
My pension deduction was 2024 francs
and there was some solidarity payment of 230 francs.
I was also member of a mutual which paid medical costs
not covered by the SECU, that ran 570 francs a month.

So I had about 5,000 francs withheld and a net pay of about 22,000 francs.
Roughly speaking, for the year, my taxed income was 86% of the total.
Some of the deductions were taxable but mostly not.

My employer paid a lot more out monthly, 13,000 francs, than I did (5,000).
For instance the total health insurance bill was 1560 from me and 2500
my employer. If I had asked for it, my employer would have given me
a partial payment for obtaining a metro travel pass. In fact my employer
already paid out 644 francs a month for transport tax which supported
the Parisian transportation system.

In addition I could purchase tickets to eat at the employer's restaurant
for about 20 francs a day. At that time a normal restaurant meal might
be twice or three times this sum.

If I had children I would have received payments for them.

On retirement, I pay nothing more for the health insurance although
one pays the CRDS and CSG taxes at a reduced rate and the mutual
membership, that also at a much reduced rate.

Anyway, roughly speaking I had 3000 francs taxes to pay for 10 months
or about 30,000 francs a year. Effectively my take home pay was reduced
from about 22,000 to 19,000 for most of the year. However, November
and December my effective income jumped to 22,000 a month, plus
the payment of an year end bonus (prime) of several thousand francs (also
paid
in June).

Note that comparison is not easy with the USA from which one must deduct
monthly health insurance payments. My net 19,000 was clear of that.
My health insurance coverage was essentially complete, no co-pay for
doctor visits or pharmacy charges and hospital charges.

Earl

The Rev Gaston writes:

    > Indeed - I am aware of that little deceit, but the result is the same.
    > A distinction without a difference.

No, it's not. The total amount of tax paid is lower, because you may
pay with a higher rate, but you pay only on domestic income. If you
paid the same high rate on both domestic and foreign income, you'd pay
more.

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poldy writes:

    > Employers don't withhold taxes?

Nope. You must cough up huge checks three times a year. There is an
automatic bank deduction option available, but there is no withholding.

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On 2005-01-12 18:52:44 +0100, Mxsmanic <[email protected]> said:

    > The Rev Gaston writes:
    >
    >> Indeed - I am aware of that little deceit, but the result is the same.
    >> A distinction without a difference.
    >
    > No, it's not. The total amount of tax paid is lower, because you may
    > pay with a higher rate, but you pay only on domestic income. If you
    > paid the same high rate on both domestic and foreign income, you'd pay
    > more.

You're talking rubbish. You pay more tax with your foreign earnings
taken into account than if they weren't taken into account. Maybe that
isn't sensu stricto double taxation, but the fact is that you end up
paying the French taxman more than you would without this particular
device.

G;
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The Rev Gaston writes:

    > You're talking rubbish. You pay more tax with your foreign earnings
    > taken into account than if they weren't taken into account.

But you pay less than you would if you had to pay taxes on all worldwide
earnings.

    > Maybe that isn't sensu stricto double taxation ...

It's not. Double taxation is paying twice on the same earnings. The
CSG is double taxation.

    > ... but the fact is that you end up
    > paying the French taxman more than you would without this particular
    > device.

Not as bad as the U.S., however, which taxes _all_ earnings worldwide.

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On 2005-01-13 02:17:28 +0100, Mxsmanic <[email protected]> said:

    > The Rev Gaston writes:
    >
    >> You're talking rubbish. You pay more tax with your foreign earnings
    >> taken into account than if they weren't taken into account.
    >
    > But you pay less than you would if you had to pay taxes on all worldwide
    > earnings.

That may be true - you also pay less than you would if you were
required to pay for the Brooklyn Bridge.

Your point being?

G;

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in article [email protected], The Rev Gaston at [email protected]
wrote on 12/01/05 19:13:

    > You're talking rubbish. You pay more tax with your foreign earnings
    > taken into account than if they weren't taken into account. Maybe that
    > isn't sensu stricto double taxation, but the fact is that you end up
    > paying the French taxman more than you would without this particular
    > device.


In the case of France-USA, the situation is complicated. Very

One includes on a French return, American sourced income and this is used
to compute a "effective tax rate". A tax credit is also accorded on the
French tax statement. The calculation is done by the French tax office and
one is not required to furnish other than the numbers. My Paris based
American accountant has a program which calculates what the final French
tax will be and it is always correct. But I could not figure it out
how exactly it was done. But I am also at a loss looking at our US
return, which he also prepares.

Of course on a US return you figure out the tax and you are checked.
If you are wrong, you get hit. The French tax office does it better,
they figure our the tax and you check them.

Being retired makes the situation more complicated since the US income
exclusion does not apply to "unearned income". The US is not suppose
to tax French retirement social security, but the ruling does not apply
to French civil service pensions unless one is a French citizen. I took
French citizenship 15 or so years ago but not for that reason. So my
French pension is not taxed by the US BUT it is included in the calculation
of
how much of my US Social Security pension is taxed. If you receive
French and American social security payments you can have those combined
and receive a single payment, I understand. The taxation of these
becomes a problem since French pensions are taxed in France.

The French are more generous with some items. Capital gains on your
personal resident sale is not taxable in France. But the IRS wants
to see the numbers! Capital gains on secondary residences are not
taxable in France if held over 15 years. But the IRS wants a hunk
of those capital gains. Dividend income from the US is partly taxable in
France but not US based capital gains. The French tax annuity payments
depending on age, so above 70 (say) most of the payment is not
taxable. There are tax preference situation in France for which one
pays a low tax or nor tax on income, like the Livret A savings account
interest. The US wants to tax those. Life insurance accounts in
France have a favorable tax structure. However, inheritance taxes
begin at a low level. So death taxation is complicated.

A clever tax expert can arrange you affairs to essentially split French
and US sourced income to legally avoid the worse, and in fact come
up with a situation in which your total tax bill is less than if the same
total income were taxed in either country.

Earl