R J Carpenter wrote:
    >
    > "Desmond Coughlan" wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    >
    > > It depends. Intelligent Americans who can see this farce that is the
    > > war-for-oil, won't have any problems.
    >
    > My way-left-of-center American friend tells me that the war is not for oil,
    > it is to cleanse the family name from the ineffectual end to Mr. Bush's
    > daddy's Gulf war.
    >
    > I'm not quite that cynical, but clearly some Americans believe it.

Well, that may well be how it was presented to Dubya, to gain his
enthusiastic involvement. (I guess I AM that cynical.)

gee thanks for that great advice.

"EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > Desmond Coughlan wrote:
    > >
    > > le Mon, 10 Feb 2003 22:36:15 GMT, dans l'article
, JD a dit ...
    > >
    > > > How are Americans being received in France, Germany, and other western
    > > > Europe destinations. I want to go back this summer, but I'm
hesitant in
    > > > view of the war and the anti-American sentiment being discussed in the
    > > > media. Folks have always been just great during my prior trips,but I
    > > > haven't been in over a year. jd
    > >
    > > It depends. Intelligent Americans who can see this farce that is the
    > > war-for-oil, won't have any problems.
    > >
    > > Walk into a bar, however, and ask why the French are cowards who only
know
    > > how to surrender, and why they're content to 'appease' Saddam, when
    > > everyone knows that he represents no danger whatsoever to American
    > > interests ... and you'll deserve the black eye that you'll (hopefully)
get.
    > In short, don't discuss politics, or be too quick to express
    > controversial opinions! Also be polite to the people you meet. (Loud,
    > ill-bred behaviour is NEVER welcome, anywhere - people who are polite
    > and considerate generally meet with the same response from the
    > "natives".)
    > >
    > > --
    > > Desmond Coughlan
    > > desmond @ zeouane.org
    > > http: // www . zeouane . org

very good point about parisians being very different from any other region
of france.

"le Crapouillot" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > You are welcome to french riviera!
    > People are fine there. I dont know for those parisians.
    > It ll be more problematic if you are relative to Mr Rumsfeld >)

On Mon, 10 Feb 2003 18:51:13 -0500, "R J Carpenter"
wrote:

    >"Desmond Coughlan" wrote in message
    >news:[email protected]...
    >> It depends. Intelligent Americans who can see this farce that is the
    >> war-for-oil, won't have any problems.
    >My way-left-of-center American friend tells me that the war is not for oil,
    >it is to cleanse the family name from the ineffectual end to Mr. Bush's
    >daddy's Gulf war.
    >I'm not quite that cynical, but clearly some Americans believe it.

Personally I find that much easier to believe than the one about the
oil, and I'm not even way-left-of-center. But then I tend to be a
contrarian.

My God, what a mess. I don't want war. I know people whose kids were
killed in Vietnam. But I'm not so naive to think Saddam will ever
cooperate absent a credible threat of force. The problem is that to
make the threat credible it may eventually have to be carried out, or
it won't work the next time (and given human history there WILL be a
next time, as surely as night follows day). I pray not and that in
the end it all turns out a monstrous game of who-blinks-first.

And no, I won't be discussing politics on my trip to France this
spring. Somehow I tend to alienate both liberals and conservatives
and it would probably be even worse in another language.


___________________________________________
Unit #02582: Endangered Old-Growth Redwood
Toothpick Artisans, LLC [TINEOGRTALLC]
--
Frivolity is a stern taskmaster.

exactly. it is a vacation i suppose not a political flag waving trip.
sometimes, though it can be difficult. you get into a conversation with
someone locally and they see that you are american and then of course come
the questions of political affiliation - almost like being asked your
religion in a taxi in the middle east - well the best course, in my opinion,
is to avoid the issue. who cares you are on vacation. confrontation is
anti-vacation.

"JohnT" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > "JD" wrote in message
    > news:zPV1a.58216$2H6.1451@sccrnsc04...
    > > How are Americans being received in France, Germany, and other western
    > > Europe destinations. I want to go back this summer, but I'm hesitant
in
    > > view of the war and the anti-American sentiment being discussed in the
    > > media. Folks have always been just great during my prior trips,but I
    > > haven't been in over a year. jd
    > >
    > >
    > If you were received well on previous trips you will be received well on
    > your next trip. I assume that you won't be waving a flag or berating
    > Europeans for their lack of enthusiasm for the US Political Process?
    > JohnT

in my experience this is very good advice.

"wessie" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > "JD" wrote in news:zPV1a.58216$2H6.1451@sccrnsc04:
    > > How are Americans being received in France, Germany, and other western
    > > Europe destinations. I want to go back this summer, but I'm hesitant
    > > in view of the war and the anti-American sentiment being discussed in
    > > the media. Folks have always been just great during my prior
    > > trips,but I haven't been in over a year. jd
    > >
    > >
    > 1. Be sympathetic to the view that not everyone agrees with US foreign
    > policy - especially in Britain as Blair's allegiance to Bush does not have
    > universal support. I doubt US news coverage makes this clear.
    > 2. Learn a few phrases in the local language - this includes UK English
    > where crisps are not chips etc
    > 3. Have plenty of Euros
    > 4. Lose the paranoia and enjoy yourself.
    > --
    > [email protected]
    > BMW R1150GS

    > Be prepared for a bit of emotive earbashing though. Seemingly, all anyone
    > talks about at the moment is the war that America's leaders are determined
    > to make happen.
    > ---
    > DFM

Well, I asked and it sounds like I'd better stay home. I'd have to spend
my time on pins and needles . That doesn't sound like an enjoyable
vacation. It doesn't sound as though Americans would be welcome so much as
tolerated. That's hard to understand since most Americans are European in
heritage. (My family is Swiss; my wife's is German).

I think the French and Germans would be safer over here in America. You
can even disagree with the U.S. position.

I hope this breaking of friendly relations on an individual basis doesn't go
on too long. I really have always loved Europe and enjoyed spending a
couple of months a year there.

Best to everyone JD

Keeger wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > "R J Carpenter" wrote:
    > >My way-left-of-center American friend tells me that the war is not for
oil,
    > >it is to cleanse the family name from the ineffectual end to Mr. Bush's
    > >daddy's Gulf war.
    > Strange then that Shrub wants to give a tax break for self-employed
    > folks who buy big (over 6000 lbs.) SUV's, when most could get by with
    > a little Honda. (get your Hummer stock now).
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...21/bs_usatoday
/4795095
    > Keeps us dependent on foreign oil, keeps his dad's oil buddies in
    > business, plenty of big military contracts to dole out, stimulates the
    > economy, etc. A sickening cycle, and why aren't more Americans asking
    > "why"?

For one thing, oil plays the key role for stabilising the worlds economy,
and life (where we live at least) is unlikely to be any better without it.
There is also a general apathy about it. People tend not to want to change
something unless it really hits home to them. Most Americans (and most other
westerners) have never even seen a warzone. The versions that we get on tv
are sterilised, because they may disturb us, and in our busy, busy lives,
who has time to give a shit?
---
DFM

JD wrote:
    > Well, I asked and it sounds like I'd better stay home. I'd have to
    > spend my time on pins and needles . That doesn't sound like an enjoyable
    > vacation. It doesn't sound as though Americans would be welcome so much
    > as tolerated. That's hard to understand since most Americans are European
    > in heritage. (My family is Swiss; my wife's is German).

Whatever made you come away with that idea was way off-base. Remember that a
lot of people here have various agendas that show through whenever the
chance comes up (Europeans who don't like the Americans, Americans who don't
like Americans, Americans who don't like Europeans). These are not
representative of any significant number of people on either side of the
Atlantic. On this issue, I think the only way you're going to get a fair
sampling is to talk to people you know and trust who have been to Europe
recently.

    > I hope this breaking of friendly relations on an individual basis doesn't
    > go on too long.

Hasn't even started, except in Usenet.

miguel
--
Hit The Road! Photos and tales from around the world: http://travel.u.nu

JD wrote in message news:Xe%1a.61232$SD6.3462@sccrnsc03...
    > > Be prepared for a bit of emotive earbashing though. Seemingly, all
anyone
    > > talks about at the moment is the war that America's leaders are
determined
    > > to make happen.
    > > ---
    > > DFM
    > >
    > >
    > Well, I asked and it sounds like I'd better stay home. I'd have to
spend
    > my time on pins and needles . That doesn't sound like an enjoyable
    > vacation.

It's a curious thing that many of the Americans I have met report of
unwillingly being pulled into discussions of a political nature. My
optimistic side feels people just really want to meet Americans that
disagree with what there leaders are doing in search of a glimmer of hope.

On a related note, I recently met a couple of frustrated Israelites in India
that were asking "why does everyone want to bring up the peace process?".
Similar thing I guess.

Go to Europe if that's you want. I was just preparing you for the worst you
may encounter.

    > It doesn't sound as though Americans would be welcome so much as
    > tolerated. That's hard to understand since most Americans are European
in
    > heritage. (My family is Swiss; my wife's is German).

European in heritage, but the modern day culture and mentality is quite
different.

    > I think the French and Germans would be safer over here in America. You
    > can even disagree with the U.S. position.
    > I hope this breaking of friendly relations on an individual basis doesn't
go
    > on too long. I really have always loved Europe and enjoyed spending a
    > couple of months a year there.

Hopefully it passes quickly and peacefully.
---
DFM

"JD" wrote in message
news:Xe%1a.61232$SD6.3462@sccrnsc03...
    > > Be prepared for a bit of emotive earbashing though. Seemingly, all
anyone
    > > talks about at the moment is the war that America's leaders are
determined
    > > to make happen.
    > > ---
    > > DFM
    > >
    > >
    > Well, I asked and it sounds like I'd better stay home. I'd have to
spend
    > my time on pins and needles . That doesn't sound like an enjoyable
    > vacation. It doesn't sound as though Americans would be welcome so much
as
    > tolerated. That's hard to understand since most Americans are European
in
    > heritage. (My family is Swiss; my wife's is German).
    > I think the French and Germans would be safer over here in America. You
    > can even disagree with the U.S. position.
    > I hope this breaking of friendly relations on an individual basis doesn't
go
    > on too long. I really have always loved Europe and enjoyed spending a
    > couple of months a year there.
    > Best to everyone JD

JD.......You would be making a big mistake to assume from the tone of
newsgroup rantings that as an American you would be treated badly in Europe.
Europeans have treated you well in the past and will continue to do so now
and in the future. Political opinions will vary in Europe just as they do
in the USA. Even those most opposed to US policy will not hold you
accountable for that policy.

To me newsgroup opinions and rantings are entertainment and as such should
not be taken seriously. I too have strong political opinions but I do not
air them in this forum as I do not feel it appropriate in the travel
information format that it is meant to be. AS a regular monitor of this
newsgroup I feel as though I know the regulars here and I enjoy their travel
related posts but I would really rather not know their political opinions.

Go to Europe war or no war and have a great time. I have a couple of three
week trips booked for this year and I intend to have a great time as I
always do. I like Europe and Europe likes me and no war or terrorist threats
will change my plans.

And now on with the flaming, name calling and insults.

Ryan

On Tue, 11 Feb 2003 05:39:53 +0100, in rec.travel.europe, "hobart xaxinojo"
arranged some electrons, so they looked like this :

...
... very good point about parisians being very different from any other region
... of france.

One less ! :-)))

Thank you, crapouillot...

======
Where are we going to and why are we in a handbasket ?

    > And now on with the flaming, name calling and insults.
    > Ryan

Poopy-head.
---
DFM

"Martin Stock" wrote in news:ube92b-
[email protected]:

    >
    > "le Crapouillot" schrieb im Newsbeitrag
    > news:[email protected]...
    >> You are welcome to french riviera!
    >> People are fine there. I dont know for those parisians.
    >> It ll be more problematic if you are relative to Mr Rumsfeld >)
    >
    > No. Only Mr Rumsfeld himself would have problems with his relatives.
    > http://www.n-tv.de/3099349.html

You have to love these online translators!
"Actually it is the family of my deceased of man", limits Margarete
Rumsfeld again and again

You can determine the meaning but it is quite funny!

le Mon, 10 Feb 2003 18:07:43 -0500, dans l'article , JohnDoe a dit ...

    >>> Europe destinations. I want to go back this summer, but I'm hesitant in
    >>> view of the war and the anti-American sentiment being discussed in the
    >>> media. Folks have always been just great during my prior trips,but I
    >>> haven't been in over a year. jd

    >>It depends. Intelligent Americans who can see this farce that is the
    >>war-for-oil, won't have any problems.
    >>Walk into a bar, however, and ask why the French are cowards who only
    >>know how to surrender, and why they're content to 'appease' Saddam, when
    >>everyone knows that he represents no danger whatsoever to American
    >>interests ... and you'll deserve the black eye that you'll (hopefully)
    >>get.

    > you'll get the black eye because the ignoramus has a tiny IQ and
    > believes the simplistic beliefs of others. if we wanted Iraq' s oil
    > all we'd need to do is to allow him to sell it.
    >
    > next kooky idea?

Much better to be in control of the supplies, or to have a puppet
government control them.

--
Desmond Coughlan
desmond @ zeouane.org
http: // www . zeouane . org