Alan Pollock

Miguel Cruz <[email protected]> wrote:
    > Mike O'Sullivan <[email protected]> wrote:
    > > "Sjoerd" <[email protected]> wrote:
    > >> In "Van Gogh" both Gs are pronounced hard as in Schiphol.
    > >
    > > Well, I don't like to disagree with you, but I heard a Dutch art expert
    > > discussing Vincent on a BBC arts programme and he most definitely pronounced
    > > both the first and last sounds as a soft gutteral "g".

    > Maybe he was toning it down for the audience (like how French people say
    > "Paris" rather than "Paghee" when speaking English), or perhaps he had been
    > requested to do so by the camera operator who was running out of paper to
    > wipe his lens with.

    > Sjoerd's description matches every time I've heard a Dutch person say it.

    > miguel


Ever heard a saw with very large teeth cut into soft pine? Nex

Alan Pollock

Miguel Cruz <[email protected]> wrote:
    > P J Wallace <[email protected] [well, think about it]> wrote:
    > > Yes, they do. Germans pronounce 'sch' as 'sh' , the Dutch as 'S+ ch'
    > > (as in 'loch' in Scotland). Hence the Dutch test for a German - asking
    > > them to pronounce Scheveningen ( the seaside resort near the Hague).

    > How do you maneuver someone into saying Scheveningen without saying it
    > yourself and giving away the pronunciation? Why not use a generic term like
    > 'gracht' that you can easily get someone to say - "Help me! My sister fell
    > into the, uh, ---" and then rely on people's natural instinct to finish each
    > other's sentences after a pause?

    > miguel

I've had folks try after hearing me say it and I could still tell they weren't
going there for a patate frite met mayo. Nex

Miguel Cruz

Tom Bellhouse <[email protected]> wrote:
    > "Miguel Cruz" <[email protected]> wrote:
    >> How do you maneuver someone into saying Scheveningen without saying it
    >> yourself and giving away the pronunciation? Why not use a generic term
    >> like 'gracht' that you can easily get someone to say - "Help me! My
    >> sister fell into the, uh, ---" and then rely on people's natural instinct
    >> to finish each other's sentences after a pause?
    > How bout "My sister fell into the, uh,erwtensoep." That ought to do it.

There'd be no point telling anyone because she'd be a goner for sure.

miguel
--
Hit The Road! Photos and tales from around the world: http://travel.u.nu

Alan Pollock

Miguel Cruz <[email protected]> wrote:
    > Tom Bellhouse <[email protected]> wrote:
    > > "Miguel Cruz" <[email protected]> wrote:
    > >> How do you maneuver someone into saying Scheveningen without saying it
    > >> yourself and giving away the pronunciation? Why not use a generic term
    > >> like 'gracht' that you can easily get someone to say - "Help me! My
    > >> sister fell into the, uh, ---" and then rely on people's natural instinct
    > >> to finish each other's sentences after a pause?
    > >
    > > How bout "My sister fell into the, uh,erwtensoep." That ought to do it.

    > There'd be no point telling anyone because she'd be a goner for sure.


Depends how hot it is and if she's a fast eater. That she'd be peased-off is a
given. Nex

Triumvir

"devil" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]> ...
    > On Mon, 25 Aug 2003 09:33:13 -0700, triumvir wrote:
    >
    > > "a.spencer3" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > >> Incidentally, I was told by Dutch friends that saying the town
    > >> 'Scheveningen' was used in WWII as a means of picking out the Germans!
    > >> Surreyman
    > >
    > > The Flemish used something similar at around the time of The Battle of
    > > the (Golden) Spurs (Guldensporenslag 1302). The French couldn't
    > > pronounce _Schilde ende Vriende_ (or something along those lines, in
    > > modern Dutch/Flemish it's _Schild en Vriend (Shield and Friend)).
    > > Hence, they would be greeted with a nice shiny Goedendag (typical
    > > Flemish weapon - a wooden stick, a chain & a spiked metal ball
    > > attached).
    > >
    > > The Flemish _ch_ and _g_ is a lot softer though, no spitting involved.
    >
    > I did beat you on that one by a number of hours.

Yeah well, I'll have to admit to no reading the complete thread.

You wrote "schield and vriend" though, which is more like modern
Flemish albeit with a typo. Schilde ende Vriende would be more like
it. So even though you might've pronounced Schield en Vriend
correctly, you'd still have a nice Goedendag up your scrotum me
thinks.

A.Spencer3

Miguel Cruz <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > a.spencer3 <[email protected]> wrote:
    > > The nearest 'English' is probably therefore 'Skipol'.
    > The 'h' in the second syllable is pronounced. So if you don't want to
    > expectorate, you can say skip - hole.

Interesting. My Den Bosch friend definitely uses no 'h' and a short 'o' -
s(ch)ip-ol. No doubt one of those accent problems that seem to abound even
within Dutch regions!
Utrecht, I'm told, is the perfect Dutch?

Surreyman

A.Spencer3

Alan Pollock <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > Miguel Cruz <[email protected]> wrote:
    > > P J Wallace <[email protected] [well, think about it]>
wrote:
    > > > Yes, they do. Germans pronounce 'sch' as 'sh' , the Dutch as 'S+ ch'
    > > > (as in 'loch' in Scotland). Hence the Dutch test for a German - asking
    > > > them to pronounce Scheveningen ( the seaside resort near the Hague).
    > > How do you maneuver someone into saying Scheveningen without saying it
    > > yourself and giving away the pronunciation? Why not use a generic term
like
    > > 'gracht' that you can easily get someone to say - "Help me! My sister
fell
    > > into the, uh, ---" and then rely on people's natural instinct to finish
each
    > > other's sentences after a pause?
    > > miguel
    > I've had folks try after hearing me say it and I could still tell they
weren't
    > going there for a patate frite met mayo.

Same with Llanfairpwll .......... oh, forget it!
And after some 40 years of spending times in Holland, my friends there still
can't even get me to say 'huis' properly! But my 'God ver ...' they say is
spot on!

Surreyman

Sjoerd

"a.spencer3" <[email protected]> schreef in bericht
news:[email protected]...
    > Interesting. My Den Bosch friend definitely uses no 'h' and a short 'o' -
    > s(ch)ip-ol. No doubt one of those accent problems that seem to abound even
    > within Dutch regions!
    > Utrecht, I'm told, is the perfect Dutch?

No, Utrecht has a very strong accent. The way they pronounce the "a" is
particularly noticeable. People from Haarlem are supposed to speak the most
proper Dutch.

Sjoerd

Erwin V.H.

[email protected] (triumvir) wrote in message news:<[email protected]. com>...
    > "a.spencer3" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > > Incidentally, I was told by Dutch friends that saying the town
    > > 'Scheveningen' was used in WWII as a means of picking out the Germans!
    > > Surreyman
    >
    > The Flemish used something similar at around the time of The Battle of
    > the (Golden) Spurs (Guldensporenslag 1302). The French couldn't
    > pronounce _Schilde ende Vriende_ (or something along those lines, in
    > modern Dutch/Flemish it's _Schild en Vriend (Shield and Friend)).

which might be a romantic corruption of the slogan " 's Gilden vriend"
(or something similar) (friend of the guilds) (at least, that's a
theory I've heard)

    > Hence, they would be greeted with a nice shiny Goedendag (typical
    > Flemish weapon - a wooden stick, a chain & a spiked metal ball
    > attached).

Contrary to popular opinion, a "goedendag" was _not_ a "a wooden
stick, a chain & a spiked metal ball attached". It actually was just a
kind of thick club with a short handle, with an iron ring attached,
which connected a sharp pin with the club. You're thinking of a
"morgenster".

    > The Flemish _ch_ and _g_ is a lot softer though, no spitting involved.

Plus: many Dutchman don't make a difference between ch and g. Many
Flemings still do it (like me), but even there the difference seems to
be fading.

Keith Anderson

On Tue, 26 Aug 2003 15:08:40 +0200, "Sjoerd"
<[email protected]> wrote:

    >"a.spencer3" <[email protected]> schreef in bericht
    >news:[email protected]...
    >> Interesting. My Den Bosch friend definitely uses no 'h' and a short 'o' -
    >> s(ch)ip-ol. No doubt one of those accent problems that seem to abound even
    >> within Dutch regions!
    >> Utrecht, I'm told, is the perfect Dutch?
    >No, Utrecht has a very strong accent. The way they pronounce the "a" is
    >particularly noticeable. People from Haarlem are supposed to speak the most
    >proper Dutch.
Ah, must be the home of Marie van Luiwis ?

Mike O'Sullivan

"Miguel Cruz" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > Mike O'Sullivan <[email protected]> wrote:
    > > "Sjoerd" <[email protected]> wrote:
    > >> In "Van Gogh" both Gs are pronounced hard as in Schiphol.
    > >
    > > Well, I don't like to disagree with you, but I heard a Dutch art expert
    > > discussing Vincent on a BBC arts programme and he most definitely
pronounced
    > > both the first and last sounds as a soft gutteral "g".
    > Maybe he was toning it down for the audience (like how French people say
    > "Paris" rather than "Paghee" when speaking English), or perhaps he had
been
    > requested to do so by the camera operator who was running out of paper to
    > wipe his lens with.
    > Sjoerd's description matches every time I've heard a Dutch person say it.
It's impossible accurately to describe sounds in print. Maybe my
understanding of "hard" in this context is different to yours. "Hard" is how
I would describe the "G" in "Given", whereas the "G" in Van Gogh is as the
Scottish "CH" as in Loch Ness.

James Silverton

"Mike O'Sullivan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > "> > Sjoerd's description matches every time I've heard a Dutch person say
it.
    > >
    > It's impossible accurately to describe sounds in print. Maybe my
    > understanding of "hard" in this context is different to yours. "Hard" is
how
    > I would describe the "G" in "Given", whereas the "G" in Van Gogh is as the
    > Scottish "CH" as in Loch Ness.

The International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA) does a pretty good job of
representing sounds in print. If you really want to get involved in
technical discussion, you might be well to learn it. I know that there would
be difficulties in using all of the IPA characters in standard e-mail but
there is an ASCII version. Try this URL:
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/IPA/faq.html

You can find a lot of references by doing a Google search for "ASCII IPA".


--
James V. Silverton
Potomac, Maryland, USA

Miguel Cruz

Mike O'Sullivan <[email protected]> wrote:
    > "Miguel Cruz" <[email protected]> wrote:
    >> Mike O'Sullivan <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>> "Sjoerd" <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>>> In "Van Gogh" both Gs are pronounced hard as in Schiphol.
    >>> Well, I don't like to disagree with you, but I heard a Dutch art expert
    >>> discussing Vincent on a BBC arts programme and he most definitely
    >>> pronounced both the first and last sounds as a soft gutteral "g".
    >> Maybe he was toning it down for the audience (like how French people say
    >> "Paris" rather than "Paghee" when speaking English), or perhaps he had
    >> been requested to do so by the camera operator who was running out of
    >> paper to wipe his lens with.
    >> Sjoerd's description matches every time I've heard a Dutch person say it.
    > It's impossible accurately to describe sounds in print. Maybe my
    > understanding of "hard" in this context is different to yours. "Hard" is
    > how I would describe the "G" in "Given", whereas the "G" in Van Gogh is as
    > the Scottish "CH" as in Loch Ness.

I was thinking of the Loch Ness variety. Fincent Fan Choch.

miguel
--
Hit The Road! Photos and tales from around the world: http://travel.u.nu

Randee

People from Harlem speak hiphop...........

Sjoerd wrote:
    >
    >"a" is
    > particularly noticeable. People from Haarlem are supposed to speak the most
    > proper Dutch.
    >

Mike O'Sullivan

"Miguel Cruz" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > I was thinking of the Loch Ness variety. Fincent Fan Choch.

Yes that's about right.