Tim Challenger

On Mon, 29 Sep 2003 12:22:12 +0200, Gernot Egger wrote:

    > Sönke Tesch wrote:

    >> I'd say also a few million
    >> people around me say "Chemie", not "Kemie" nor "Schemie".

    > I did not say that all Germans say "Schemie"!!!!
    > lg Gernot


Now, now, children ;-)
Nevertheless, a lot of Germans on TV DO say "isch", even those who are
well-spoken and with otherwise no obvious accent. And a pronunciation that,
thought not totally correct Hochdeutch, is often used.

Does anyone actually admit to speaking Hochdeutsch? In these days of rising
local and regional awareness, it seems to be a bit of an embarrassment to
speak Hochdeutsch and not a local dialect. Goi?

--
Tim.

If the human brain were simple enough that we could understand it, we would
be so simple that we couldn't.

S?Nke Tesch

Tim Challenger wrote:
    : Does anyone actually admit to speaking Hochdeutsch? In these days of rising
    : local and regional awareness, it seems to be a bit of an embarrassment to
    : speak Hochdeutsch and not a local dialect. Goi?

I'd rather say that many people are pissed of by the recent top-down changes
to German orthography and thus everyone speaks whatever s/he likes just to not
do what those stupid officials say

Regards,
soenk.e

Owain

"Arwel Parry" wrote
    | tim writes
    | >And to show that it works both ways 98% of foreigners that I
    | >meet cannot say my (full) name correctly (I'm sure I've had no
    | >problems with it since I was small)
    | We don't know what your full name is -- it isn't Tim St John
    | Cholmondeley-Featherstonehaugh by any chance?

Or Menzies Menzies.

Owain

Tim Challenger

On Mon, 29 Sep 2003 13:56:59 +0200, Sönke Tesch wrote:

    > Tim Challenger wrote:
    >: Does anyone actually admit to speaking Hochdeutsch? In these days of rising
    >: local and regional awareness, it seems to be a bit of an embarrassment to
    >: speak Hochdeutsch and not a local dialect. Goi?

    > I'd rather say that many people are pissed of by the recent top-down changes
    > to German orthography and thus everyone speaks whatever s/he likes just to not
    > do what those stupid officials say

You're probably right. And I'd do exactly the same thing.

I'd like to add that the one thing that annoys me more that germans saying
"isch" and "schemie" is Austrians (mostly Viennese) who affect a
Hochdeutsch accent. Some are quite good at it.


--
Tim.

If the human brain were simple enough that we could understand it, we would
be so simple that we couldn't.

Thomas Peel

"Douglas W. Hoyt" schrieb:
    >
    > <<<<<"It's not 'ee' but 'ee', and you should say 'ay' not 'ay'."
    >
    > It's then time for a refresher course--being, naturally, Mark Twain's "The
    > Awful German Language":
    > http://www.crossmyt.com/hc/linghebr/awfgrmlg.html

lol - that's really good, but it proves at least that Mark Twain knew
what he was talking about.
Tom
    >
    > One thing about German vowels--they tend to be far less dipthonged than
    > English vowels. Most vowel sounds are very even, and don't alter once they
    > leave the previous consonant and hit the next, unless another vowel gets
    > there first. For instance, the word 'beten', might sound in English like
    > "baitin", but it should not actually have the dipthongly swing of the "ai"
    > that alters the the sound between the 'b' and the 't' in English.

Thomas Peel

Tim Challenger schrieb:
    >
    > On Mon, 29 Sep 2003 13:56:59 +0200, Sönke Tesch wrote:
    >
    > > Tim Challenger wrote:
    > >: Does anyone actually admit to speaking Hochdeutsch? In these days of rising
    > >: local and regional awareness, it seems to be a bit of an embarrassment to
    > >: speak Hochdeutsch and not a local dialect. Goi?
    >
    > > I'd rather say that many people are pissed of by the recent top-down changes
    > > to German orthography and thus everyone speaks whatever s/he likes just to not
    > > do what those stupid officials say
    >
    > You're probably right. And I'd do exactly the same thing.
    >
    > I'd like to add that the one thing that annoys me more that germans saying
    > "isch" and "schemie" is Austrians (mostly Viennese) who affect a
    > Hochdeutsch accent. Some are quite good at it.
    >
    > --
    > Tim.
    >
If the Viennese didn't then you and I would not have a clue what they
are saying.
Tom
(Düsseldorf)

    > If the human brain were simple enough that we could understand it, we would
    > be so simple that we couldn't.

James Silverton

"Lost For Life" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > Thomas Adams <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
    > > [email protected] (Thomas Milligan) wrote:

    > > ??? Sorry for getting sci.lang.translation'ish, but which initial "h"
    > > are you talking about? Some 20 years ago I was taught to forget the
    > > initial "h" in words like hue, huge, humidity, humour etc. Is this not
    > > correct?

    > Either way, pronounciation is not so critical in English, due to the
    > enormous amount of accents that exist around the globe. If it's
    > clearly understandable, it's good English in my books.

I tend to agree with you. I was taught to always pronounce an initial h and
Julia Child's New England "erb" for my "herb" always bugged me but she is
entitled to use whatever she considers local standard, IMHO.


--
James V. Silverton
Potomac, Maryland, USA

Thomas Peel

tim schrieb:
    >
    > "Jens Arne Maennig" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news[email protected]...
    > > Georg Naggies wrote:
    > >
    > > >
    > > > "ich" with the difficult throat sound
    > >
    > > In Hochdeutsch it's actually not a throat sound but formed between tongue
    > > and the front of the palate, close to the front teeth. Actually, it can't
    > > be too difficult, as my two year old daughter has absolutely no problem
    > > saying "ich" a thousand times a day.
    >
    > I can assure you that if you don't learn it as a two year old it's
    > flipping impossible. My current teacher has given up on me and
    > is encouraging me to say Ish. I'm not happy with this as:
    > 1) It seems to be wrong
    > 2) it is presumably of no use for me to say Nisht or Nasht?

How do you pronounce Loch Ness? Losh Ness?

Tom
    >
    > And to show that it works both ways 98% of foreigners that I
    > meet cannot say my (full) name correctly (I'm sure I've had no
    > problems with it since I was small) and I usually have no
    > difficulty turning the tabes on the ignorant's who attempt to
    > belittle my inabilities[1] as lack of trying.
    >
    > [1] I can't do the blasted t'z sound either, and I've had two
    > years more of not managing it as it's very similar to the Italian
    > sound (but fortunately there aren't any important italian words,
    > that I can think of, beginning with Z).
    >
    > tim
    >
    > >
    > > > is correct and standard,
    > > > besides that there are all kinds of regional dialect variations
    > > >
    > > > ish ... Swabia, I believe
    > >
    > > Hesse, I'd say. Swabia is "i", as it is South Germany, as you mentioned
    > > below.
    > >
    > > > ick ... Berlin
    > >
    > > ... or even "icke"
    > >
    > > > ichh with a hard throat sound ... Tirol
    > > > i ... South German, Austria
    > > >
    > > > probably many more
    > >
    > > Not too many, I'd say.
    > >
    > > Jens

Thomas Peel

Casey schrieb:
    >
    > The few German language CDs I've heard always pronounce
    > the personal pronoun for the English 'I' as ich, making the sound
    > of ch in the back of the throat.

It's pronounced between the tongue and the palate in the middle of the
mouth. Certainly not in the back of the throat. Are you sure you're not
learning Dutch?
Tom

My latest conversational class
    > has a teacher that pronounces it as ish (the last three letters from
    > dish). She claims that this is a dialect variation. Well, what do
    > the German speakers here think? Is ish a dialect pronunciation
    > or is she misinformed?
    >
    > Casey

P J Wallace

It's between the two. 'Ch' as in loch is right at the back of the
throat. 'Ch' as in 'Ich' is more in the middle of the mouth with the
tongue much closer to the palate - roughly where the air goes in a
Welsh LL sound.

PJW


On Sun, 28 Sep 2003 07:25:44 -0400, Dave Smith
<[email protected]> wrote:

    >Casey wrote:
    >> The few German language CDs I've heard always pronounce
    >> the personal pronoun for the English 'I' as ich, making the sound
    >> of ch in the back of the throat. My latest conversational class
    >> has a teacher that pronounces it as ish (the last three letters from
    >> dish). She claims that this is a dialect variation. Well, what do
    >> the German speakers here think? Is ish a dialect pronunciation
    >> or is she misinformed?
    >I am not German, but my best friend was and I grew up hearing German
    >spoken. took German for several years in high school and I have been to
    >Germany three times. I was taught Ich. That is what my friend, his
    >family and all their GErman speaking friends said, and it is what I
    >heard when I was in Germany. The only time I ever heard Ish, was on one
    >particular language tape.

Tim

"Markku Grönroos" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > >
    > > I suggest you re-read the text that you left in place then
    > >
    > I have not made any reference to you. Sod off!

You posted (by in correct snipping):

quote
    > tim wrote:
    > b) The meaning of a single missing or mispronounced word can be
    > retrieved by the context it's used in. That's absolutly no problem,
    > human brains are doing this day in, day out.
end quote

Now you must understand that I not originally getting at you, but
recording, for the record (as these posts are achieved) that I did
not actually say what your snipping claimed that I said (not that
it was a particularly bad thing to have said, but that is not the point.)

But having said that, you made a mistake and having had this pointed
out to you the usual course is to say sorry (having first checked that
you actually were wrong if you so wish, which I gave you ample
opportunity to do). But oh no, you chose to be rude to the messenger.

Now, I am getting at you:

If you can act politely, **** off yourself

Tim

Tim

"Felix C. Bartlo" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > tim wrote:
    > >
    > > Some people are able to learn a new language in a week or two (I
    > > once worked with one of them).
    > > I am not one of them.
    > > I prefer to consider what is the norm, not what is theoretically
    > > possible.
    > Your problem is that you consider yourself the norm,

No, I consider myself to be at one end of the set, which starts
with the people that can learn a new language in a week and goes
all the way down to me, the incapable. But more importantly
I wish for people who criticise my inability to use the reference
point of the norm, not that of the top 0.005%.
(FWIW when I go to my lessons it humbles me to be continuously,
bottom of the class for the first time in my education - I was no
better at learning French at school, but then I was grouped in a
class that were crap at everything)

    > the vast majority as being at the bounds of theoretical
    > possiblity. So you're having trouble learning the pronouce
    > "ich" in Horchdeutsch. Your experience is not universal.
    > It's not the norm.

I made no claim that it does, but I suspect that the reference
set is somewhat biased towards the capable, as there are likely
to be many people, like me, who have difficulties learning to do
these things, but unlike me have no other motivation, and hence
give up completely. Thus the capabability of the reference set of
people learning a new language is bound to be heavily skewed
towards those who are good at learning languages and contain
few of those that are poor learners.

    > The sound is very similar to a normal English sound, once
    > you recognize it. The "h" sound at the beginning of "huge"
    > (for those who do not use the silent "h"). The "h" sound
    > at the beginning of slacker-age slang "yeah" ("hyeah") is
    > the same sound, but it always is followed by a "y" sound
    > in English. In German it follows a vowel and can appear at
    > the end of the word.

Just knowing this does not help. It does not matter if
I can make up the individual sounds as part of english words,
I cannot do it in the combination that is required for speaking
German

Tim

Tim

"Arwel Parry" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > In message <[email protected]>, tim
    > <[email protected]> writes
    > >And to show that it works both ways 98% of foreigners that I
    > >meet cannot say my (full) name correctly (I'm sure I've had no
    > >problems with it since I was small) and I usually have no
    > >difficulty turning the tabes on the ignorant's who attempt to
    > >belittle my inabilities[1] as lack of trying.
    > We don't know what your full name is

...othy


    >-- it isn't Tim St John
    > Cholmondeley-Featherstonehaugh by any chance?

B'stard

Tim

    > --
    > Arwel Parry
    > http://www.cartref.demon.co.uk/

Tim

"Thomas Peel" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    >
    >
    > tim schrieb:
    > >
    > > "Jens Arne Maennig" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > news[email protected]...
    > > > Georg Naggies wrote:
    > > >
    > > > >
    > > > > "ich" with the difficult throat sound
    > > >
    > > > In Hochdeutsch it's actually not a throat sound but formed between tongue
    > > > and the front of the palate, close to the front teeth. Actually, it can't
    > > > be too difficult, as my two year old daughter has absolutely no problem
    > > > saying "ich" a thousand times a day.
    > >
    > > I can assure you that if you don't learn it as a two year old it's
    > > flipping impossible. My current teacher has given up on me and
    > > is encouraging me to say Ish. I'm not happy with this as:
    > > 1) It seems to be wrong
    > > 2) it is presumably of no use for me to say Nisht or Nasht?
    >
    > How do you pronounce Loch Ness? Losh Ness?

the same way that I pronounce the thing that a key goes in
(with a very short 'k')

Tim

    >
    > Tom
    > >
    > > And to show that it works both ways 98% of foreigners that I
    > > meet cannot say my (full) name correctly (I'm sure I've had no
    > > problems with it since I was small) and I usually have no
    > > difficulty turning the tabes on the ignorant's who attempt to
    > > belittle my inabilities[1] as lack of trying.
    > >
    > > [1] I can't do the blasted t'z sound either, and I've had two
    > > years more of not managing it as it's very similar to the Italian
    > > sound (but fortunately there aren't any important italian words,
    > > that I can think of, beginning with Z).
    > >
    > > tim
    > >
    > > >
    > > > > is correct and standard,
    > > > > besides that there are all kinds of regional dialect variations
    > > > >
    > > > > ish ... Swabia, I believe
    > > >
    > > > Hesse, I'd say. Swabia is "i", as it is South Germany, as you mentioned
    > > > below.
    > > >
    > > > > ick ... Berlin
    > > >
    > > > ... or even "icke"
    > > >
    > > > > ichh with a hard throat sound ... Tirol
    > > > > i ... South German, Austria
    > > > >
    > > > > probably many more
    > > >
    > > > Not too many, I'd say.
    > > >
    > > > Jens

Richard

"Thomas Adams" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > [email protected] (Thomas Milligan) wrote:

    > ??? Sorry for getting sci.lang.translation'ish, but which initial "h"
    > are you talking about? Some 20 years ago I was taught to forget the
    > initial "h" in words like hue, huge, humidity, humour etc. Is this not
    > correct?

It certainly isn't if you're trying to pass yourself off as a Canadian.

Richard