Jens Arne Maennig

Ben Birkner wrote:

    > A correct German phrase would be "Ich habe Durst" (I'm thirsty).
    > Native Bavarians would go for "I hob Duarscht".

That would be grammatically nonsense or at least not Bavarian grammar.
The common form would be "An Du(a)rschd hob i".

Jens

Tim

"Mxsmanic" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > tim writes:
    > > I can assure you that if you don't learn it as a two year old it's
    > > flipping impossible.
    > All of the sounds discussed thus far are quite easy to produce.

Then please come up with a lucid reason as to why I can't do it?

Tim

    > --
    > Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly.

Tim

"Jens Arne Maennig" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news[email protected]...
    > tim wrote:
    > > I can assure you that if you don't learn it as a two year old it's
    > > flipping impossible.
    > Some people are even able to learn Portugese (a phonetically pretty rich
    > language) and pronounce it pretty well after the age of two.

Some people are able to learn a new language in a week or two (I
once worked with one of them).
I am not one of them.
I prefer to consider what is the norm, not what is theoretically
possible.

    > Here in
    > Germany, it sometimes takes people a while to pronounce an English "th"
    > that is not existant in german, but most do manage it after a while.

So some don't, then?

    > > My current teacher has given up on me and
    > > is encouraging me to say Ish. I'm not happy with this as:
    > > 1) It seems to be wrong
    > So - try it again.

This is exactly the point I was making about it being my 'fault',
do you really think that I have spent four year here and not tried!?
(and six years on that blasted "z").

    > Studying the formation of sounds on the example of the
    > oral anatomy of a nice German girlfriend should mostly work.
    > > 2) it is presumably of no use for me to say Nisht or Nasht?
    > "Nisht" is probably as understandable as "ish", "nasht" could maybe cause
    > more problems, as people could understand "nascht" (he/she eats sweet
    > things or eats secretly, from the verb "naschen") instead of "Nacht"
    > (night).

They were just some examples. Do wee need to analyse all of the
possible 'ch' words?

    > > And to show that it works both ways 98% of foreigners that I
    > > meet cannot say my (full) name correctly
    > We don't even know it.

In its diminutive form it is printed at the top (copied by the
newsreader from my original post). In its full form I am not named
after a bottle of shampoo as most people seem to think.
(Sorry, I appreciate that the short form of my name has become a
german name without any reference to the full form)

Tim

    > Jens

Tim

"Markku Grönroos" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > "Sönke Tesch" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > > tim wrote:

which of the bit that you've left in did I write?
(answer, none of it)

Tim

    > >
    > > b) The meaning of a single missing or mispronounced word can be
    > > retrieved by the context it's used in. That's absolutly no problem,
    > > human brains are doing this day in, day out.
    > >
    > Absolutely not.

Markku GröNroos

"tim" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > "Markku Grönroos" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > >
    > > "Sönke Tesch" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > news:[email protected]...
    > > > tim wrote:
    > which of the bit that you've left in did I write?
    > (answer, none of it)
Nobody referred you (at least not me).

Tim

"Markku Grönroos" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > "tim" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > >
    > > "Markku Grönroos" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > > >
    > > > "Sönke Tesch" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > > news:[email protected]...
    > > > > tim wrote:
    > >
    > > which of the bit that you've left in did I write?
    > > (answer, none of it)
    > >
    > Nobody referred you (at least not me).

I suggest you re-read the text that you left in place then

Tim

Markku GröNroos

"tim" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > "Markku Grönroos" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > >
    > > "tim" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > news:[email protected]...
    > > >
    > > > "Markku Grönroos" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > news:[email protected]...
    > > > >
    > > > > "Sönke Tesch" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > > > news:[email protected]...
    > > > > > tim wrote:
    > > >
    > > > which of the bit that you've left in did I write?
    > > > (answer, none of it)
    > > >
    > > Nobody referred you (at least not me).
    > I suggest you re-read the text that you left in place then
I have not made any reference to you. Sod off!

Felix C. Bartlo

tim wrote:
    >
    > "Mxsmanic" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > > tim writes:
    > >
    > > > I can assure you that if you don't learn it as a two year old it's
    > > > flipping impossible.
    > >
    > > All of the sounds discussed thus far are quite easy to produce.
    >
    > Then please come up with a lucid reason as to why I can't do it?
    >
    > Tim
    >
    > >
    > > --
    > > Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly.

A can assure you that it's possible to learn to pronounce
the Hochdeatuch ach-laut and ich-laut sounds (the sounds
at the ends of the tow words ach and ich) correctly, even
when starting german lessons from scratch in ones forties
or fifties or later. If you are having trouble, and you
can't think of a lucid reason, perhaps your lucidity is
less usefull than your pronunciation.

Felix C. Bartlo

tim wrote:
    >
    > "Jens Arne Maennig" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news[email protected]...
    > > tim wrote:
    > >
    > > > I can assure you that if you don't learn it as a two year old it's
    > > > flipping impossible.
    > >
    > > Some people are even able to learn Portugese (a phonetically pretty rich
    > > language) and pronounce it pretty well after the age of two.
    >
    > Some people are able to learn a new language in a week or two (I
    > once worked with one of them).
    > I am not one of them.
    > I prefer to consider what is the norm, not what is theoretically
    > possible.

Your problem is that you consider yourself the norm, and
the vast majority as being at the bounds of theoretical
possiblity. So you're having trouble learning the pronouce
"ich" in Horchdeutsch. Your experience is not universal.
It's not the norm.

The sound is very similar to a normal English sound, once
you recognize it. The "h" sound at the beginning of "huge"
(for those who do not use the silent "h"). The "h" sound
at the beginning of slacker-age slang "yeah" ("hyeah") is
the same sound, but it always is followed by a "y" sound
in English. In German it follows a vowel and can appear at
the end of the word.

Keith Anderson

On Sun, 28 Sep 2003 07:25:44 -0400, Dave Smith
<[email protected]> wrote:

    >Casey wrote:
    >> The few German language CDs I've heard always pronounce
    >> the personal pronoun for the English 'I' as ich, making the sound
    >> of ch in the back of the throat. My latest conversational class
    >> has a teacher that pronounces it as ish (the last three letters from
    >> dish). She claims that this is a dialect variation. Well, what do
    >> the German speakers here think? Is ish a dialect pronunciation
    >> or is she misinformed?
    >I am not German, but my best friend was and I grew up hearing German
    >spoken. took German for several years in high school and I have been to
    >Germany three times. I was taught Ich. That is what my friend, his
    >family and all their GErman speaking friends said, and it is what I
    >heard when I was in Germany. The only time I ever heard Ish, was on one
    >particular language tape.

Many years ago I lived in Frankfurt, where many sounds became "sh"

The nice "Hundertfünfzig" of Hochdeutsch became "Hunnertfuftsch" and
even Hamburg became "Hambursch"

Evelynvogtgamble

Casey wrote:
    >
    > The few German language CDs I've heard always pronounce
    > the personal pronoun for the English 'I' as ich, making the sound
    > of ch in the back of the throat. My latest conversational class
    > has a teacher that pronounces it as ish (the last three letters from
    > dish). She claims that this is a dialect variation. Well, what do
    > the German speakers here think? Is ish a dialect pronunciation
    > or is she misinformed?

German (like French) also has a "stage" version of the language, in
addition to the conversational forms - of which there are several, I
think. As a singer, I rather specialized in German Lieder. The soft
"ich" sound (not QUITE "ish", but often hard for English-speakers to
distinguish) was generally used when singing, and my (German) vocal
coach told me it was one of the conventions of "stage" German. It also
seemed to be the pronunciation I most frequently encountered in Vienna.
Either way, you'll be understood - German-speakers aren't quite so fussy
about "correctness" as the French appear to be. (Incidentally, the
glottal rolled "r" in spoken French and German is generally pronounced
more forward in the mouth, like an Italian "r", in singing classical
music.)

Evelynvogtgamble

"Douglas W. Hoyt" wrote:
    >
    > >>>>>My latest conversational class has a teacher that pronounces it as ish
    > (the last three letters from dish). She claims that this is a dialect
    > variation. Well, what do the German speakers here think? Is ish a dialect
    > pronunciation or is she misinformed?
    >
    > The teeth should not get involved in pronouncing it.

I think this is a case of ears adapted to English not always being able
to distinguish some of the finer gradations. It isn't quite "ish", but
sounds like it to the undiscerning ear. I never had any difficulty with
the "ch" sounds, but there are about five ways of pronouncing the letter
"e" in German, and I remember my frustration when my voice coach
repeatedly told me: "It's not 'ee' but 'ee', and you should say 'ay' not
'ay'." (Obviously there was a difference between two pronunciations
which my American ears were simply not hearing - and if you can't HEAR
the sound, it's awfully hard to reproduce it!)

Evelynvogtgamble

tim wrote:
    >
    > "Jens Arne Maennig" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news[email protected]...
    > > Georg Naggies wrote:
    > >
    > > >
    > > > "ich" with the difficult throat sound
    > >
    > > In Hochdeutsch it's actually not a throat sound but formed between tongue
    > > and the front of the palate, close to the front teeth. Actually, it can't
    > > be too difficult, as my two year old daughter has absolutely no problem
    > > saying "ich" a thousand times a day.
    >
    > I can assure you that if you don't learn it as a two year old it's
    > flipping impossible. My current teacher has given up on me and
    > is encouraging me to say Ish. I'm not happy with this as:
    > 1) It seems to be wrong

You certainly will not be alone in pronuouncing it that way.

    > 2) it is presumably of no use for me to say Nisht or Nasht?

I think "nisht" would pass, but "ch" after an "a" vowel is the harder
sound (not "ahk" but closer - the back of the tongue against the palate
just in front of the uvula, instead of the front, as with the softer
"ich".) If you can't say "nicht" and "nacht", I think you'll be
understood with "nisht" and "nahkt". I usually found, when I was
singing, that German speakers forgave mistakes in pronunciation, if the
singing was up to par. On the other hand, I remember doing a group of
French duets on a program, and one French lady in the audience had
nothing at all to say, except to criticise our French pronunciation!
(Which left a lot to be desired, true, but was not so bad as to render
the humourous texts unintelliglble.)

Douglas W. Hoyt

<<<<<"It's not 'ee' but 'ee', and you should say 'ay' not 'ay'."

It's then time for a refresher course--being, naturally, Mark Twain's "The
Awful German Language":
http://www.crossmyt.com/hc/linghebr/awfgrmlg.html

One thing about German vowels--they tend to be far less dipthonged than
English vowels. Most vowel sounds are very even, and don't alter once they
leave the previous consonant and hit the next, unless another vowel gets
there first. For instance, the word 'beten', might sound in English like
"baitin", but it should not actually have the dipthongly swing of the "ai"
that alters the the sound between the 'b' and the 't' in English.

Mxsmanic

EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque) writes:

    > ... German-speakers aren't quite so fussy
    > about "correctness" as the French appear to be.

The irony is that many French are fussy about pronunciation, and yet
their pronunciation is incorrect. They try to "correct" the correct
pronunciations when they hear them spoken by foreigners, which is both
amusing and frustrating. Must they be fussy AND ignorant?

    > Incidentally, the glottal rolled "r" in spoken French
    > and German is generally pronounced more forward in the mouth,
    > like an Italian "r", in singing classical music.

Note that the uvular 'r' is not rolled in French.

--
Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly.