German: ich or ish
Sep 28th 2003, 1:31 am
#1
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German: ich or ish
The few German language CDs I've heard always pronounce
the personal pronoun for the English 'I' as ich, making the sound
of ch in the back of the throat. My latest conversational class
has a teacher that pronounces it as ish (the last three letters from
dish). She claims that this is a dialect variation. Well, what do
the German speakers here think? Is ish a dialect pronunciation
or is she misinformed?
Casey
the personal pronoun for the English 'I' as ich, making the sound
of ch in the back of the throat. My latest conversational class
has a teacher that pronounces it as ish (the last three letters from
dish). She claims that this is a dialect variation. Well, what do
the German speakers here think? Is ish a dialect pronunciation
or is she misinformed?
Casey
Sep 28th 2003, 1:43 am
#2
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Re: German: ich or ish
I am not a native speaker, but lived for a year in Freiburg. Like you, I
learned to pronounce the "ch" in the back of the throat, but I did often hear
the "sh" version while in Germany. Somebody more knowledgeable can probably
tell you exactly what region pronounces it that way.
Deb
learned to pronounce the "ch" in the back of the throat, but I did often hear
the "sh" version while in Germany. Somebody more knowledgeable can probably
tell you exactly what region pronounces it that way.
Deb
Sep 28th 2003, 1:45 am
#3
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Re: German: ich or ish
>>>>>My latest conversational class has a teacher that pronounces it as ish
(the last three letters from dish). She claims that this is a dialect
variation. Well, what do the German speakers here think? Is ish a dialect
pronunciation or is she misinformed?
The teeth should not get involved in pronouncing it.
(the last three letters from dish). She claims that this is a dialect
variation. Well, what do the German speakers here think? Is ish a dialect
pronunciation or is she misinformed?
The teeth should not get involved in pronouncing it.
Sep 28th 2003, 2:32 am
#4
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Re: German: ich or ish
My German teachers always taught that the "ick" pronunciation is
characteristic of Bavaria and southern Germany, while the "ish" is more
typical of northern Germany and is considered to be a somewhat higher-class,
more educated usage (although there is an element of anti-Bavarian prejudice
or snobbishness here).
Incidentally, the latter pronunciation is not exactly "ish." It is sort of
halfway between the two extremes you mean, softer that "ick" and harder then
"ish." It is impossible to reproduce in print; you need to hear native
speakers in order to get it exactly.
That said, if you are worried about your reception when speaking the
language while visiting Germany, don't be. Either pronunciation, or any
point in between the two, will communicate just fine, and the German people
understand the difficulty so many other nationalities have with sounds that
do not exist in their own native languages. The Germans have similar
problems with English sounds, such as the English/American "r" or "w."
They have always seemed to me most appreciative of my efforts to speak their
language, and although I had three and a half years of German in college, I
am still not very good at it.
"Casey" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> The few German language CDs I've heard always pronounce
> the personal pronoun for the English 'I' as ich, making the sound
> of ch in the back of the throat. My latest conversational class
> has a teacher that pronounces it as ish (the last three letters from
> dish). She claims that this is a dialect variation. Well, what do
> the German speakers here think? Is ish a dialect pronunciation
> or is she misinformed?
> Casey
characteristic of Bavaria and southern Germany, while the "ish" is more
typical of northern Germany and is considered to be a somewhat higher-class,
more educated usage (although there is an element of anti-Bavarian prejudice
or snobbishness here).
Incidentally, the latter pronunciation is not exactly "ish." It is sort of
halfway between the two extremes you mean, softer that "ick" and harder then
"ish." It is impossible to reproduce in print; you need to hear native
speakers in order to get it exactly.
That said, if you are worried about your reception when speaking the
language while visiting Germany, don't be. Either pronunciation, or any
point in between the two, will communicate just fine, and the German people
understand the difficulty so many other nationalities have with sounds that
do not exist in their own native languages. The Germans have similar
problems with English sounds, such as the English/American "r" or "w."
They have always seemed to me most appreciative of my efforts to speak their
language, and although I had three and a half years of German in college, I
am still not very good at it.
"Casey" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> The few German language CDs I've heard always pronounce
> the personal pronoun for the English 'I' as ich, making the sound
> of ch in the back of the throat. My latest conversational class
> has a teacher that pronounces it as ish (the last three letters from
> dish). She claims that this is a dialect variation. Well, what do
> the German speakers here think? Is ish a dialect pronunciation
> or is she misinformed?
> Casey
Sep 28th 2003, 5:58 am
#5
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Re: German: ich or ish
"ich" with the difficult throat sound is correct and standard,
besides that there are all kinds of regional dialect variations
ish ... Swabia, I believe
ick ... Berlin
ichh with a hard throat sound ... Tirol
i ... South German, Austria
probably many more
Best
Georg
Casey wrote:
> The few German language CDs I've heard always pronounce
> the personal pronoun for the English 'I' as ich, making the sound
> of ch in the back of the throat. My latest conversational class
> has a teacher that pronounces it as ish (the last three letters from
> dish). She claims that this is a dialect variation. Well, what do
> the German speakers here think? Is ish a dialect pronunciation
> or is she misinformed?
>
>
> Casey
>
>
besides that there are all kinds of regional dialect variations
ish ... Swabia, I believe
ick ... Berlin
ichh with a hard throat sound ... Tirol
i ... South German, Austria
probably many more
Best
Georg
Casey wrote:
> The few German language CDs I've heard always pronounce
> the personal pronoun for the English 'I' as ich, making the sound
> of ch in the back of the throat. My latest conversational class
> has a teacher that pronounces it as ish (the last three letters from
> dish). She claims that this is a dialect variation. Well, what do
> the German speakers here think? Is ish a dialect pronunciation
> or is she misinformed?
>
>
> Casey
>
>
Sep 28th 2003, 7:44 am
#6
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Re: German: ich or ish
Casey wrote:
> The few German language CDs I've heard always pronounce
> the personal pronoun for the English 'I' as ich, making the sound
> of ch in the back of the throat. My latest conversational class
> has a teacher that pronounces it as ish (the last three letters from
> dish).
It's "ich" and not "ish".
Ish ist the way French speakers say it.
And in my opinion the "ch" does not come from the back of the throat. It
made in the mouth. English speakers are not used to it. Probably Scots are
better in pronouncing "ich" correctly than many other native English
speakers.
I, ick etc. are dialects but not "Hochdeutsch".
lg Gernot
> The few German language CDs I've heard always pronounce
> the personal pronoun for the English 'I' as ich, making the sound
> of ch in the back of the throat. My latest conversational class
> has a teacher that pronounces it as ish (the last three letters from
> dish).
It's "ich" and not "ish".
Ish ist the way French speakers say it.
And in my opinion the "ch" does not come from the back of the throat. It
made in the mouth. English speakers are not used to it. Probably Scots are
better in pronouncing "ich" correctly than many other native English
speakers.
I, ick etc. are dialects but not "Hochdeutsch".
lg Gernot
Sep 28th 2003, 8:26 am
#7
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Re: German: ich or ish
Georg Naggies wrote:
>
> "ich" with the difficult throat sound
In Hochdeutsch it's actually not a throat sound but formed between tongue
and the front of the palate, close to the front teeth. Actually, it can't
be too difficult, as my two year old daughter has absolutely no problem
saying "ich" a thousand times a day.
> is correct and standard,
> besides that there are all kinds of regional dialect variations
>
> ish ... Swabia, I believe
Hesse, I'd say. Swabia is "i", as it is South Germany, as you mentioned
below.
> ick ... Berlin
... or even "icke"
> ichh with a hard throat sound ... Tirol
> i ... South German, Austria
>
> probably many more
Not too many, I'd say.
Jens
>
> "ich" with the difficult throat sound
In Hochdeutsch it's actually not a throat sound but formed between tongue
and the front of the palate, close to the front teeth. Actually, it can't
be too difficult, as my two year old daughter has absolutely no problem
saying "ich" a thousand times a day.
> is correct and standard,
> besides that there are all kinds of regional dialect variations
>
> ish ... Swabia, I believe
Hesse, I'd say. Swabia is "i", as it is South Germany, as you mentioned
below.
> ick ... Berlin
... or even "icke"
> ichh with a hard throat sound ... Tirol
> i ... South German, Austria
>
> probably many more
Not too many, I'd say.
Jens
Sep 28th 2003, 11:08 am
#8
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Re: German: ich or ish
"Jens Arne Maennig" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news
[email protected]...
> Georg Naggies wrote:
> >
> > "ich" with the difficult throat sound
> In Hochdeutsch it's actually not a throat sound but formed between tongue
> and the front of the palate, close to the front teeth. Actually, it can't
> be too difficult, as my two year old daughter has absolutely no problem
> saying "ich" a thousand times a day.
I can assure you that if you don't learn it as a two year old it's
flipping impossible. My current teacher has given up on me and
is encouraging me to say Ish. I'm not happy with this as:
1) It seems to be wrong
2) it is presumably of no use for me to say Nisht or Nasht?
And to show that it works both ways 98% of foreigners that I
meet cannot say my (full) name correctly (I'm sure I've had no
problems with it since I was small) and I usually have no
difficulty turning the tabes on the ignorant's who attempt to
belittle my inabilities[1] as lack of trying.
[1] I can't do the blasted t'z sound either, and I've had two
years more of not managing it as it's very similar to the Italian
sound (but fortunately there aren't any important italian words,
that I can think of, beginning with Z).
tim
> > is correct and standard,
> > besides that there are all kinds of regional dialect variations
> >
> > ish ... Swabia, I believe
> Hesse, I'd say. Swabia is "i", as it is South Germany, as you mentioned
> below.
> > ick ... Berlin
> ... or even "icke"
> > ichh with a hard throat sound ... Tirol
> > i ... South German, Austria
> >
> > probably many more
> Not too many, I'd say.
> Jens
news
[email protected]...> Georg Naggies wrote:
> >
> > "ich" with the difficult throat sound
> In Hochdeutsch it's actually not a throat sound but formed between tongue
> and the front of the palate, close to the front teeth. Actually, it can't
> be too difficult, as my two year old daughter has absolutely no problem
> saying "ich" a thousand times a day.
I can assure you that if you don't learn it as a two year old it's
flipping impossible. My current teacher has given up on me and
is encouraging me to say Ish. I'm not happy with this as:
1) It seems to be wrong
2) it is presumably of no use for me to say Nisht or Nasht?
And to show that it works both ways 98% of foreigners that I
meet cannot say my (full) name correctly (I'm sure I've had no
problems with it since I was small) and I usually have no
difficulty turning the tabes on the ignorant's who attempt to
belittle my inabilities[1] as lack of trying.
[1] I can't do the blasted t'z sound either, and I've had two
years more of not managing it as it's very similar to the Italian
sound (but fortunately there aren't any important italian words,
that I can think of, beginning with Z).
tim
> > is correct and standard,
> > besides that there are all kinds of regional dialect variations
> >
> > ish ... Swabia, I believe
> Hesse, I'd say. Swabia is "i", as it is South Germany, as you mentioned
> below.
> > ick ... Berlin
> ... or even "icke"
> > ichh with a hard throat sound ... Tirol
> > i ... South German, Austria
> >
> > probably many more
> Not too many, I'd say.
> Jens
Sep 28th 2003, 11:16 am
#9
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Re: German: ich or ish
"Casey" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected] link.net>...
> The few German language CDs I've heard always pronounce
> the personal pronoun for the English 'I' as ich, making the sound
> of ch in the back of the throat. My latest conversational class
> has a teacher that pronounces it as ish (the last three letters from
> dish). She claims that this is a dialect variation. Well, what do
> the German speakers here think? Is ish a dialect pronunciation
> or is she misinformed?
>
>
> Casey
Yes, it is a dialect form. You will find it most likely in the South
Western and Eastern areas of Germany, but not in Bavaria: here the
"ich" converts to "i" (pronounced like the English letter e).
A correct German phrase would be "Ich habe Durst" (I'm thirsty).
Native Bavarians would go for "I hob Duarscht". People from the
Southwest will tell you "Isch henn Dorscht". Northern Germans
pronounce it "Ick hev Durst". But all of them will understand you much
easier than their fellow crowd. :-)
Ben
> The few German language CDs I've heard always pronounce
> the personal pronoun for the English 'I' as ich, making the sound
> of ch in the back of the throat. My latest conversational class
> has a teacher that pronounces it as ish (the last three letters from
> dish). She claims that this is a dialect variation. Well, what do
> the German speakers here think? Is ish a dialect pronunciation
> or is she misinformed?
>
>
> Casey
Yes, it is a dialect form. You will find it most likely in the South
Western and Eastern areas of Germany, but not in Bavaria: here the
"ich" converts to "i" (pronounced like the English letter e).
A correct German phrase would be "Ich habe Durst" (I'm thirsty).
Native Bavarians would go for "I hob Duarscht". People from the
Southwest will tell you "Isch henn Dorscht". Northern Germans
pronounce it "Ick hev Durst". But all of them will understand you much
easier than their fellow crowd. :-)
Ben
Sep 28th 2003, 11:25 am
#10
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Re: German: ich or ish
Casey wrote:
> The few German language CDs I've heard always pronounce
> the personal pronoun for the English 'I' as ich, making the sound
> of ch in the back of the throat. My latest conversational class
> has a teacher that pronounces it as ish (the last three letters from
> dish). She claims that this is a dialect variation. Well, what do
> the German speakers here think? Is ish a dialect pronunciation
> or is she misinformed?
I am not German, but my best friend was and I grew up hearing German
spoken. took German for several years in high school and I have been to
Germany three times. I was taught Ich. That is what my friend, his
family and all their GErman speaking friends said, and it is what I
heard when I was in Germany. The only time I ever heard Ish, was on one
particular language tape.
> The few German language CDs I've heard always pronounce
> the personal pronoun for the English 'I' as ich, making the sound
> of ch in the back of the throat. My latest conversational class
> has a teacher that pronounces it as ish (the last three letters from
> dish). She claims that this is a dialect variation. Well, what do
> the German speakers here think? Is ish a dialect pronunciation
> or is she misinformed?
I am not German, but my best friend was and I grew up hearing German
spoken. took German for several years in high school and I have been to
Germany three times. I was taught Ich. That is what my friend, his
family and all their GErman speaking friends said, and it is what I
heard when I was in Germany. The only time I ever heard Ish, was on one
particular language tape.
Sep 28th 2003, 12:20 pm
#11
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Re: German: ich or ish
tim wrote:
: My current teacher has given up on me and
: is encouraging me to say Ish. I'm not happy with this as:
: 1) It seems to be wrong
: 2) it is presumably of no use for me to say Nisht or Nasht?
a) Few people on this planet get rid of their dialect anyway.
b) The meaning of a single missing or mispronounced word can be
retrieved by the context it's used in. That's absolutly no problem,
human brains are doing this day in, day out.
Regards,
soenk.e
PS: Your "nisht" (nicht) is rather common in spoken German, and even
more common is "nix" (pronounced exactly like "nicks"). Use these if
you feel more happy with it
: My current teacher has given up on me and
: is encouraging me to say Ish. I'm not happy with this as:
: 1) It seems to be wrong
: 2) it is presumably of no use for me to say Nisht or Nasht?
a) Few people on this planet get rid of their dialect anyway.
b) The meaning of a single missing or mispronounced word can be
retrieved by the context it's used in. That's absolutly no problem,
human brains are doing this day in, day out.
Regards,
soenk.e
PS: Your "nisht" (nicht) is rather common in spoken German, and even
more common is "nix" (pronounced exactly like "nicks"). Use these if
you feel more happy with it
Sep 28th 2003, 12:25 pm
#12
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Re: German: ich or ish
"Sönke Tesch" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> tim wrote:
> b) The meaning of a single missing or mispronounced word can be
> retrieved by the context it's used in. That's absolutly no problem,
> human brains are doing this day in, day out.
Absolutely not.
news:[email protected]...
> tim wrote:
> b) The meaning of a single missing or mispronounced word can be
> retrieved by the context it's used in. That's absolutly no problem,
> human brains are doing this day in, day out.
Absolutely not.
Sep 28th 2003, 12:47 pm
#13
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Re: German: ich or ish
tim writes:
> I can assure you that if you don't learn it as a two year old it's
> flipping impossible.
All of the sounds discussed thus far are quite easy to produce.
--
Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly.
> I can assure you that if you don't learn it as a two year old it's
> flipping impossible.
All of the sounds discussed thus far are quite easy to produce.
--
Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly.
Sep 28th 2003, 1:44 pm
#14
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Re: German: ich or ish
I confirm.. i for austrian dialect..
"Georg Naggies" <[email protected]> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:[email protected]...
> "ich" with the difficult throat sound is correct and standard,
> besides that there are all kinds of regional dialect variations
> ish ... Swabia, I believe
> ick ... Berlin
> ichh with a hard throat sound ... Tirol
> i ... South German, Austria
> probably many more
> Best
> Georg
> Casey wrote:
> > The few German language CDs I've heard always pronounce
> > the personal pronoun for the English 'I' as ich, making the sound
> > of ch in the back of the throat. My latest conversational class
> > has a teacher that pronounces it as ish (the last three letters from
> > dish). She claims that this is a dialect variation. Well, what do
> > the German speakers here think? Is ish a dialect pronunciation
> > or is she misinformed?
> >
> >
> > Casey
> >
> >
"Georg Naggies" <[email protected]> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:[email protected]...
> "ich" with the difficult throat sound is correct and standard,
> besides that there are all kinds of regional dialect variations
> ish ... Swabia, I believe
> ick ... Berlin
> ichh with a hard throat sound ... Tirol
> i ... South German, Austria
> probably many more
> Best
> Georg
> Casey wrote:
> > The few German language CDs I've heard always pronounce
> > the personal pronoun for the English 'I' as ich, making the sound
> > of ch in the back of the throat. My latest conversational class
> > has a teacher that pronounces it as ish (the last three letters from
> > dish). She claims that this is a dialect variation. Well, what do
> > the German speakers here think? Is ish a dialect pronunciation
> > or is she misinformed?
> >
> >
> > Casey
> >
> >
Sep 28th 2003, 1:52 pm
#15
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: German: ich or ish
tim wrote:
> I can assure you that if you don't learn it as a two year old it's
> flipping impossible.
Some people are even able to learn Portugese (a phonetically pretty rich
language) and pronounce it pretty well after the age of two. Here in
Germany, it sometimes takes people a while to pronounce an English "th"
that is not existant in german, but most do manage it after a while.
> My current teacher has given up on me and
> is encouraging me to say Ish. I'm not happy with this as:
> 1) It seems to be wrong
So - try it again. Studying the formation of sounds on the example of the
oral anatomy of a nice German girlfriend should mostly work.
> 2) it is presumably of no use for me to say Nisht or Nasht?
"Nisht" is probably as understandable as "ish", "nasht" could maybe cause
more problems, as people could understand "nascht" (he/she eats sweet
things or eats secretly, from the verb "naschen") instead of "Nacht"
(night).
> And to show that it works both ways 98% of foreigners that I
> meet cannot say my (full) name correctly
We don't even know it.
Jens
> I can assure you that if you don't learn it as a two year old it's
> flipping impossible.
Some people are even able to learn Portugese (a phonetically pretty rich
language) and pronounce it pretty well after the age of two. Here in
Germany, it sometimes takes people a while to pronounce an English "th"
that is not existant in german, but most do manage it after a while.
> My current teacher has given up on me and
> is encouraging me to say Ish. I'm not happy with this as:
> 1) It seems to be wrong
So - try it again. Studying the formation of sounds on the example of the
oral anatomy of a nice German girlfriend should mostly work.
> 2) it is presumably of no use for me to say Nisht or Nasht?
"Nisht" is probably as understandable as "ish", "nasht" could maybe cause
more problems, as people could understand "nascht" (he/she eats sweet
things or eats secretly, from the verb "naschen") instead of "Nacht"
(night).
> And to show that it works both ways 98% of foreigners that I
> meet cannot say my (full) name correctly
We don't even know it.
Jens