French question???????
Jun 6th 2003, 2:33 pm
#76
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: French question???????
"Mark Hewitt" wrote in
news:[email protected]:
>
> "Wolfgang Schwanke" wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> wrote in news:[email protected]:
>> > The blond-haired
>> > blue-eyed French are the anomaly, probably being descended from
>> > invaders from Northern Europe, a group known as Normans.
>> And the Franks, who France is named after.
>
> Where did they originate from?
In what is today Belgium and Holland. The Dutch language is, linguistically
speaking, "Lower Frankish". "Upper Frankish" dialects are spoken into
Germany up the Rhine.
Regards
--
Listen very carefully, I shall say zis only once
http://www.wschwanke.de/
news:[email protected]:
>
> "Wolfgang Schwanke" wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> wrote in news:[email protected]:
>> > The blond-haired
>> > blue-eyed French are the anomaly, probably being descended from
>> > invaders from Northern Europe, a group known as Normans.
>> And the Franks, who France is named after.
>
> Where did they originate from?
In what is today Belgium and Holland. The Dutch language is, linguistically
speaking, "Lower Frankish". "Upper Frankish" dialects are spoken into
Germany up the Rhine.
Regards
--
Listen very carefully, I shall say zis only once
http://www.wschwanke.de/
Jun 6th 2003, 2:57 pm
#77
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: French question???????
On Fri, 06 Jun 2003 16:33:26 +0200, Wolfgang Schwanke wrote:
> "Mark Hewitt" wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>>
>> "Wolfgang Schwanke" wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> wrote in news:[email protected]:
>>> > The blond-haired
>>> > blue-eyed French are the anomaly, probably being descended from
>>> > invaders from Northern Europe, a group known as Normans.
>>> And the Franks, who France is named after.
>>
>> Where did they originate from?
>
> In what is today Belgium and Holland. The Dutch language is, linguistically
> speaking, "Lower Frankish". "Upper Frankish" dialects are spoken into
> Germany up the Rhine.
They settled in what is today Belgium, holland, the Rhine valley and
northern France.
But that's not where they originated. They were one of the first Germanic
tribes to appear on the horizon. Hence (one of the?) first to settle in
Gaul.
(Incidentally, I would have thought the Celts were more reddish/blond than
dark-skinned, as the original poster claimed?)
> "Mark Hewitt" wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>>
>> "Wolfgang Schwanke" wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> wrote in news:[email protected]:
>>> > The blond-haired
>>> > blue-eyed French are the anomaly, probably being descended from
>>> > invaders from Northern Europe, a group known as Normans.
>>> And the Franks, who France is named after.
>>
>> Where did they originate from?
>
> In what is today Belgium and Holland. The Dutch language is, linguistically
> speaking, "Lower Frankish". "Upper Frankish" dialects are spoken into
> Germany up the Rhine.
They settled in what is today Belgium, holland, the Rhine valley and
northern France.
But that's not where they originated. They were one of the first Germanic
tribes to appear on the horizon. Hence (one of the?) first to settle in
Gaul.
(Incidentally, I would have thought the Celts were more reddish/blond than
dark-skinned, as the original poster claimed?)
Jun 6th 2003, 3:32 pm
#78
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: French question???????
"devil" wrote in message
news
[email protected]...
...
> (Incidentally, I would have thought the Celts were more reddish/blond than
> dark-skinned, as the original poster claimed?)
I was suggesting dark hair rather than dark skinned, although, when I lived
in Scotland, dark hair on people I met was often associated with a slightly
sun-tanned look. You will find both colourings in both Ireland (the group
The Coors demonstrate the dark look I had in mind) and Scotland. However, I
don't recall seeing many red-haired Welsh.
Colin Bignell
news
[email protected]......
> (Incidentally, I would have thought the Celts were more reddish/blond than
> dark-skinned, as the original poster claimed?)
I was suggesting dark hair rather than dark skinned, although, when I lived
in Scotland, dark hair on people I met was often associated with a slightly
sun-tanned look. You will find both colourings in both Ireland (the group
The Coors demonstrate the dark look I had in mind) and Scotland. However, I
don't recall seeing many red-haired Welsh.
Colin Bignell
Jun 6th 2003, 4:13 pm
#79
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: French question???????
On Fri, 06 Jun 2003 16:32:44 +0100, nightja wrote:
>
> "devil" wrote in message
> news[email protected]...
> ...
>> (Incidentally, I would have thought the Celts were more reddish/blond than
>> dark-skinned, as the original poster claimed?)
>
> I was suggesting dark hair rather than dark skinned, although, when I lived
> in Scotland, dark hair on people I met was often associated with a slightly
> sun-tanned look. You will find both colourings in both Ireland (the group
> The Coors demonstrate the dark look I had in mind) and Scotland. However, I
> don't recall seeing many red-haired Welsh.
What about people in Britanny?
>
> "devil" wrote in message
> news
[email protected]...> ...
>> (Incidentally, I would have thought the Celts were more reddish/blond than
>> dark-skinned, as the original poster claimed?)
>
> I was suggesting dark hair rather than dark skinned, although, when I lived
> in Scotland, dark hair on people I met was often associated with a slightly
> sun-tanned look. You will find both colourings in both Ireland (the group
> The Coors demonstrate the dark look I had in mind) and Scotland. However, I
> don't recall seeing many red-haired Welsh.
What about people in Britanny?
Jun 6th 2003, 9:42 pm
#80
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: French question???????
> In what is today Belgium and Holland. The Dutch language is, linguistically
speaking, "Lower Frankish". "Upper Frankish" dialects are spoken into Germany
up the Rhine.
They settled in what is today Belgium, holland, the Rhine valley and northern
France.
But that's not where they originated. They were one of the first Germanic
tribes to appear on the horizon. Hence (one of the?) first to settle in Gaul.
Like all the other tribes through history, they seem to have come somewhere out
of central Asia. I never could understand what there was about this part of the
world that produced such large numbers of tribes that then worked their way
west - from the huns and tatars, from the goths and vandals, from the angles
and saxons......what a prolific part of the world.
speaking, "Lower Frankish". "Upper Frankish" dialects are spoken into Germany
up the Rhine.
They settled in what is today Belgium, holland, the Rhine valley and northern
France.
But that's not where they originated. They were one of the first Germanic
tribes to appear on the horizon. Hence (one of the?) first to settle in Gaul.
Like all the other tribes through history, they seem to have come somewhere out
of central Asia. I never could understand what there was about this part of the
world that produced such large numbers of tribes that then worked their way
west - from the huns and tatars, from the goths and vandals, from the angles
and saxons......what a prolific part of the world.
Jun 7th 2003, 2:26 pm
#81
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: French question???????
"devil" a écrit dans le message news:
[email protected]...
> >
> > I was suggesting dark hair rather than dark skinned, although, when I
> > lived
> > in Scotland, dark hair on people I met was often associated with a
> > slightly
> > sun-tanned look. You will find both colourings in both Ireland (the
> > group
> > The Coors demonstrate the dark look I had in mind) and Scotland.
> > However, I
> > don't recall seeing many red-haired Welsh.
> What about people in Britanny?
Interesting question : I 'd say there were at least two different original
"groups" in Brittany : for example in the Finistère departement, people are
rather short (it is the departement in France where, on average, there are
the shortest
people), often dark haired and they sometimes even have a slight asian look
In the Morbihan departement (and probably in the north), people are taller,
blue eyes, brown or fair hair are rather common.
Of course, this is a rough approximation, but there is some truth in it.
Where does that come from, I don't know exactly. Studying the history of
migrations would certainly give a clue.
My guess is that Celtic people never had any unity as far as physical
appearance is concerned, even if they are generally something like a halfway
between nordic and mediterranean appearances.
I add the French word "blond" seems to derivate from a Frankish word. Does
that mean that there were no fair haired people in the Celtic population
that lived in Gaul before the Germanic invasions ? Probably not, but it's
interesting to notice that linguistic fact.
JPh
[email protected]...
> >
> > I was suggesting dark hair rather than dark skinned, although, when I
> > lived
> > in Scotland, dark hair on people I met was often associated with a
> > slightly
> > sun-tanned look. You will find both colourings in both Ireland (the
> > group
> > The Coors demonstrate the dark look I had in mind) and Scotland.
> > However, I
> > don't recall seeing many red-haired Welsh.
> What about people in Britanny?
Interesting question : I 'd say there were at least two different original
"groups" in Brittany : for example in the Finistère departement, people are
rather short (it is the departement in France where, on average, there are
the shortest
people), often dark haired and they sometimes even have a slight asian look
In the Morbihan departement (and probably in the north), people are taller,
blue eyes, brown or fair hair are rather common.
Of course, this is a rough approximation, but there is some truth in it.
Where does that come from, I don't know exactly. Studying the history of
migrations would certainly give a clue.
My guess is that Celtic people never had any unity as far as physical
appearance is concerned, even if they are generally something like a halfway
between nordic and mediterranean appearances.
I add the French word "blond" seems to derivate from a Frankish word. Does
that mean that there were no fair haired people in the Celtic population
that lived in Gaul before the Germanic invasions ? Probably not, but it's
interesting to notice that linguistic fact.
JPh
Jun 7th 2003, 6:09 pm
#82
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: French question???????
"devil" a écrit dans le message news:
[email protected]...
> (We are of course all very familiar with the so-called battle of Poitiers,
> which probably happened quite a bit further north incidentally, somewhere
> on the Loire valley. Also of this minor Roncevaux event. Surely you are
> too?)
Parts of what is now south-western France were briefly (a few
decades?) under Muslim occupation during the 8th century, after the battle
of Poitiers. At Poitiers (or wherever it was), the Franks stopped the
invasion ; it doesn't that they sent back the Moors to the Pyrenees all at
once. After that there were some muslim raids. Moors made raids on the
mediterranean coast too and some of them even setteld there: the massif des
Maures" (maure = moor), near Saint Tropez, where they stayed for one century
reminds us of that.
So, France never really was "under Muslim rule", but in all likelihood,
recent immigrants are not the only people in France who have Muslim
ancestors.
"Morel" (or "Maurel") is a rather common surname in France. It probably
means something like "dark-skinned like a moor", but it doesn't necessarily
mean that the first person who was thus named was a Moor.
JPh
[email protected]...
> (We are of course all very familiar with the so-called battle of Poitiers,
> which probably happened quite a bit further north incidentally, somewhere
> on the Loire valley. Also of this minor Roncevaux event. Surely you are
> too?)
Parts of what is now south-western France were briefly (a few
decades?) under Muslim occupation during the 8th century, after the battle
of Poitiers. At Poitiers (or wherever it was), the Franks stopped the
invasion ; it doesn't that they sent back the Moors to the Pyrenees all at
once. After that there were some muslim raids. Moors made raids on the
mediterranean coast too and some of them even setteld there: the massif des
Maures" (maure = moor), near Saint Tropez, where they stayed for one century
reminds us of that.
So, France never really was "under Muslim rule", but in all likelihood,
recent immigrants are not the only people in France who have Muslim
ancestors.
"Morel" (or "Maurel") is a rather common surname in France. It probably
means something like "dark-skinned like a moor", but it doesn't necessarily
mean that the first person who was thus named was a Moor.
JPh
Jun 7th 2003, 7:02 pm
#83
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: French question???????
On Sat, 07 Jun 2003 20:09:27 +0200, J-Ph wrote:
>
> "devil" a écrit dans le message news:
> [email protected]...
>
>> (We are of course all very familiar with the so-called battle of Poitiers,
>> which probably happened quite a bit further north incidentally, somewhere
>> on the Loire valley. Also of this minor Roncevaux event. Surely you are
>> too?)
>
> Parts of what is now south-western France were briefly (a few
> decades?) under Muslim occupation during the 8th century, after the battle
> of Poitiers. At Poitiers (or wherever it was), the Franks stopped the
> invasion ; it doesn't that they sent back the Moors to the Pyrenees all at
> once. After that there were some muslim raids. Moors made raids on the
> mediterranean coast too and some of them even setteld there: the massif des
> Maures" (maure = moor), near Saint Tropez, where they stayed for one century
> reminds us of that.
> So, France never really was "under Muslim rule", but in all likelihood,
> recent immigrants are not the only people in France who have Muslim
> ancestors.
There is not much time between the battle of Poitiers and Roncevaux. I
believe the Pyrenees really were the containment line.
However, what is most likely is diffusion from Spain and perhaps Italy.
Over more than a thousand years, plus a recent increase in mobility, does
have an effect.
> "Morel" (or "Maurel") is a rather common surname in France. It probably
> means something like "dark-skinned like a moor", but it doesn't necessarily
> mean that the first person who was thus named was a Moor.
I have known some, actually Morel de (something). Do you know for a fact
that the etymology has to do with moors though? I would not be so sure.
>
> "devil" a écrit dans le message news:
> [email protected]...
>
>> (We are of course all very familiar with the so-called battle of Poitiers,
>> which probably happened quite a bit further north incidentally, somewhere
>> on the Loire valley. Also of this minor Roncevaux event. Surely you are
>> too?)
>
> Parts of what is now south-western France were briefly (a few
> decades?) under Muslim occupation during the 8th century, after the battle
> of Poitiers. At Poitiers (or wherever it was), the Franks stopped the
> invasion ; it doesn't that they sent back the Moors to the Pyrenees all at
> once. After that there were some muslim raids. Moors made raids on the
> mediterranean coast too and some of them even setteld there: the massif des
> Maures" (maure = moor), near Saint Tropez, where they stayed for one century
> reminds us of that.
> So, France never really was "under Muslim rule", but in all likelihood,
> recent immigrants are not the only people in France who have Muslim
> ancestors.
There is not much time between the battle of Poitiers and Roncevaux. I
believe the Pyrenees really were the containment line.
However, what is most likely is diffusion from Spain and perhaps Italy.
Over more than a thousand years, plus a recent increase in mobility, does
have an effect.
> "Morel" (or "Maurel") is a rather common surname in France. It probably
> means something like "dark-skinned like a moor", but it doesn't necessarily
> mean that the first person who was thus named was a Moor.
I have known some, actually Morel de (something). Do you know for a fact
that the etymology has to do with moors though? I would not be so sure.
Jun 7th 2003, 8:09 pm
#84
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: French question???????
"devil" a écrit dans le message news:
[email protected]...
> On Sat, 07 Jun 2003 20:09:27 +0200, J-Ph wrote:
> There is not much time between the battle of Poitiers and Roncevaux.
As I said, a few decades.
> I
> believe the Pyrenees really were the containment line.
The Ebre river, rather than the Pyrenees : Catalonia was conquered by the
Franks after Roncevaux, in the beginning of the IXth century.
/.../
> > "Morel" (or "Maurel") is a rather common surname in France. It probably
> > means something like "dark-skinned like a moor", but it doesn't
necessarily
> > mean that the first person who was thus named was a Moor.
> I have known some, actually Morel de (something). Do you know for a fact
> that the etymology has to do with moors though? I would not be so sure.
Maybe you're right : in some cases, Morel (or Maury...) may derivate from
the name of a saint ("saint Maur"), or from something else. The same surname
may have different origins.
JPh
[email protected]...
> On Sat, 07 Jun 2003 20:09:27 +0200, J-Ph wrote:
> There is not much time between the battle of Poitiers and Roncevaux.
As I said, a few decades.
> I
> believe the Pyrenees really were the containment line.
The Ebre river, rather than the Pyrenees : Catalonia was conquered by the
Franks after Roncevaux, in the beginning of the IXth century.
/.../
> > "Morel" (or "Maurel") is a rather common surname in France. It probably
> > means something like "dark-skinned like a moor", but it doesn't
necessarily
> > mean that the first person who was thus named was a Moor.
> I have known some, actually Morel de (something). Do you know for a fact
> that the etymology has to do with moors though? I would not be so sure.
Maybe you're right : in some cases, Morel (or Maury...) may derivate from
the name of a saint ("saint Maur"), or from something else. The same surname
may have different origins.
JPh
