French accent
May 25th 2005, 4:15 am
#91
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: French accent
French Canadian or European French?No matter how ya slice it,they're both
kinda dopey....I dunno why dey tink we gan eben addemt to speek eeengleesh,
maywee fershure. (English translation:I flunked first form English)
Glen
--
I was an only child.....eventually!
"nitram" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Tue, 24 May 2005 16:10:52 +0100, [email protected]
> (chancellor of the duchy of besses o' th' barn and prestwich tesco)
> wrote:
> >kyrha <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >> Hi everybody
> >> I'm french and I'd like to know your opinion about french accent
> >> Thank you for your answers
> >
> >I'm very fond of this one ยด
> >
> >sometimes I'm more in the mood for this one though `
> this is a grave situation.
kinda dopey....I dunno why dey tink we gan eben addemt to speek eeengleesh,
maywee fershure. (English translation:I flunked first form English)
Glen
--
I was an only child.....eventually!
"nitram" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Tue, 24 May 2005 16:10:52 +0100, [email protected]
> (chancellor of the duchy of besses o' th' barn and prestwich tesco)
> wrote:
> >kyrha <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >> Hi everybody
> >> I'm french and I'd like to know your opinion about french accent
> >> Thank you for your answers
> >
> >I'm very fond of this one ยด
> >
> >sometimes I'm more in the mood for this one though `
> this is a grave situation.
May 25th 2005, 4:18 am
#92
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: French accent
chancellor of the duchy of besses o' th' barn and prestwich tesco
writes:
> Where? Give a specific example, please.
The _International Express_ series wastes time on such exercises, as one
example. I've seen others.
> Well, that's an important first step.
Why? All I know is that pitch intonation isn't important in practically
the entire English-speaking world, so it wastes students' time to teach
it.
> What course are they included in- who teaches it- and where?
I teach the courses, at a language school. Most of the courses use
established teaching materials, although some are custom-designed.
> Such as?
>
> Give an example please.
I can't, without audio, but supposedly there are "polite" and "neutral"
ways to say a given sentence, with variations in pitch. The problem is
that these distinctions are extremely specific to parts of the UK, and
are completely irrelevant throughout the rest of the English-speaking
world.
> Which book are you referring to, and more importantly perhaps, when was
> it published?
See above, but there are several. Most were published within the past
five years or so. Some are brand-new.
> Not any more. If anything, regional accents are becoming more popular,
> though you're not going to find someone with a strong scouse accent
> reading the national news. There are practical reasons for that, and
> you'll find the same thing in other societies.
Someone needs to tell the publishers, then.
> Do enlighten the British readers as to what they are. I for one am
> fascinated.
It's more a question of what they aren't.
--
Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly.
writes:
> Where? Give a specific example, please.
The _International Express_ series wastes time on such exercises, as one
example. I've seen others.
> Well, that's an important first step.
Why? All I know is that pitch intonation isn't important in practically
the entire English-speaking world, so it wastes students' time to teach
it.
> What course are they included in- who teaches it- and where?
I teach the courses, at a language school. Most of the courses use
established teaching materials, although some are custom-designed.
> Such as?
>
> Give an example please.
I can't, without audio, but supposedly there are "polite" and "neutral"
ways to say a given sentence, with variations in pitch. The problem is
that these distinctions are extremely specific to parts of the UK, and
are completely irrelevant throughout the rest of the English-speaking
world.
> Which book are you referring to, and more importantly perhaps, when was
> it published?
See above, but there are several. Most were published within the past
five years or so. Some are brand-new.
> Not any more. If anything, regional accents are becoming more popular,
> though you're not going to find someone with a strong scouse accent
> reading the national news. There are practical reasons for that, and
> you'll find the same thing in other societies.
Someone needs to tell the publishers, then.
> Do enlighten the British readers as to what they are. I for one am
> fascinated.
It's more a question of what they aren't.
--
Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly.
May 25th 2005, 4:18 am
#93
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: French accent
chancellor of the duchy of besses o' th' barn and prestwich tesco
writes:
> Have you been to Oxford, Cambridge, or around Buckingham Palace?
No, but many of the publishers live there, and the palace is a center of
RP, which is often still used in English courses.
--
Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly.
writes:
> Have you been to Oxford, Cambridge, or around Buckingham Palace?
No, but many of the publishers live there, and the palace is a center of
RP, which is often still used in English courses.
--
Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly.
May 25th 2005, 4:20 am
#94
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: French accent
On Wed, 25 May 2005 13:50:37 GMT, Deep Foiled Malls
<deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu> wrote:
>On 25 May 2005 04:32:45 -0700, "george" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>We used to have a Scottish secretary, here accent was pure sex!
>You must be having a different type of sex than me.
sheep!
<deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu> wrote:
>On 25 May 2005 04:32:45 -0700, "george" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>We used to have a Scottish secretary, here accent was pure sex!
>You must be having a different type of sex than me.
sheep!
May 25th 2005, 4:22 am
#95
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: French accent
On Wed, 25 May 2005 14:52:52 +0100, Keith Anderson
<[email protected]> wrote:
>On Wed, 25 May 2005 13:48:41 GMT, Deep Foiled Malls
><deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu> wrote:
>>On Wed, 25 May 2005 12:02:10 +0200, Mxsmanic <[email protected]>
>>wrote:
>>>chancellor of the duchy of besses o' th' barn and prestwich tesco
>>>writes:
>>>> How do they find you?
>>>Most of my clients and many of my coworkers are American.
>>The cheese is sliding...
>Over-ripe Camembert?
Cheesy smile?
<[email protected]> wrote:
>On Wed, 25 May 2005 13:48:41 GMT, Deep Foiled Malls
><deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu> wrote:
>>On Wed, 25 May 2005 12:02:10 +0200, Mxsmanic <[email protected]>
>>wrote:
>>>chancellor of the duchy of besses o' th' barn and prestwich tesco
>>>writes:
>>>> How do they find you?
>>>Most of my clients and many of my coworkers are American.
>>The cheese is sliding...
>Over-ripe Camembert?
Cheesy smile?
May 25th 2005, 4:24 am
#96
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: French accent
On Wed, 25 May 2005 16:53:55 +0100, "Miss L. Toe"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>"nitram" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected].. .
>> On Wed, 25 May 2005 15:22:14 +0100, "Miss L. Toe"
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>> >
>> >"Deep Foiled Malls" <deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu> wrote in
>> >message news:[email protected]...
>> >> On 25 May 2005 04:32:45 -0700, "george" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >We used to have a Scottish secretary, here accent was pure sex!
>> >>
>> >> You must be having a different type of sex than me.
>> >>
>> >
>> >Never heard of phone sex ?
>> >
>> LOL I'll have fiver's worth please.
>Helllloooo maaarrtin
oo-er missus, your French accent sent tingles up & down my spine.
>(I assume the cheque is now in the post)
The Czech of your choice is in the post.
<[email protected]> wrote:
>"nitram" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected].. .
>> On Wed, 25 May 2005 15:22:14 +0100, "Miss L. Toe"
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>> >
>> >"Deep Foiled Malls" <deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu> wrote in
>> >message news:[email protected]...
>> >> On 25 May 2005 04:32:45 -0700, "george" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >We used to have a Scottish secretary, here accent was pure sex!
>> >>
>> >> You must be having a different type of sex than me.
>> >>
>> >
>> >Never heard of phone sex ?
>> >
>> LOL I'll have fiver's worth please.
>Helllloooo maaarrtin
oo-er missus, your French accent sent tingles up & down my spine.
>(I assume the cheque is now in the post)
The Czech of your choice is in the post.
May 25th 2005, 4:26 am
#97
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: French accent
Mxsmanic <[email protected]> wrote:
> chancellor of the duchy of besses o' th' barn and prestwich tesco
> writes:
>
> > Where? Give a specific example, please.
>
> The _International Express_ series wastes time on such exercises, as one
> example. I've seen others.
What are the exercises?
> > Well, that's an important first step.
>
> Why? All I know is that pitch intonation isn't important in practically
> the entire English-speaking world,
It's not particularly important here either. Yet, you didn't seem to
know that.
> so it wastes students' time to teach
> it.
>
> > What course are they included in- who teaches it- and where?
>
> I teach the courses, at a language school.
Using some book, apparently. So, what is an example of this intonation
to which you refer.
> Most of the courses use
> established teaching materials, although some are custom-designed.
> > Such as?
> >
> > Give an example please.
>
> I can't, without audio,
You shouldn't need audio, for gawd's sake.
> but supposedly there are "polite" and "neutral"
> ways to say a given sentence, with variations in pitch.
Give an example, then.
> The problem is
> that these distinctions are extremely specific to parts of the UK,
Which parts.
> and
> are completely irrelevant throughout the rest of the English-speaking
> world.
>
> > Which book are you referring to, and more importantly perhaps, when was
> > it published?
>
> See above, but there are several. Most were published within the past
> five years or so. Some are brand-new.
Hm....
> > Not any more. If anything, regional accents are becoming more popular,
> > though you're not going to find someone with a strong scouse accent
> > reading the national news. There are practical reasons for that, and
> > you'll find the same thing in other societies.
>
> Someone needs to tell the publishers, then.
Just give us an example of what you're talking about.
> > Do enlighten the British readers as to what they are. I for one am
> > fascinated.
>
> It's more a question of what they aren't.
Yet you can't mention _one_. Fascinating.
--
David Horne- www.davidhorne.net
usenet (at) davidhorne (dot) co (dot) uk
> chancellor of the duchy of besses o' th' barn and prestwich tesco
> writes:
>
> > Where? Give a specific example, please.
>
> The _International Express_ series wastes time on such exercises, as one
> example. I've seen others.
What are the exercises?
> > Well, that's an important first step.
>
> Why? All I know is that pitch intonation isn't important in practically
> the entire English-speaking world,
It's not particularly important here either. Yet, you didn't seem to
know that.
> so it wastes students' time to teach
> it.
>
> > What course are they included in- who teaches it- and where?
>
> I teach the courses, at a language school.
Using some book, apparently. So, what is an example of this intonation
to which you refer.
> Most of the courses use
> established teaching materials, although some are custom-designed.
> > Such as?
> >
> > Give an example please.
>
> I can't, without audio,
You shouldn't need audio, for gawd's sake.
> but supposedly there are "polite" and "neutral"
> ways to say a given sentence, with variations in pitch.
Give an example, then.
> The problem is
> that these distinctions are extremely specific to parts of the UK,
Which parts.
> and
> are completely irrelevant throughout the rest of the English-speaking
> world.
>
> > Which book are you referring to, and more importantly perhaps, when was
> > it published?
>
> See above, but there are several. Most were published within the past
> five years or so. Some are brand-new.
Hm....
> > Not any more. If anything, regional accents are becoming more popular,
> > though you're not going to find someone with a strong scouse accent
> > reading the national news. There are practical reasons for that, and
> > you'll find the same thing in other societies.
>
> Someone needs to tell the publishers, then.
Just give us an example of what you're talking about.
> > Do enlighten the British readers as to what they are. I for one am
> > fascinated.
>
> It's more a question of what they aren't.
Yet you can't mention _one_. Fascinating.
--
David Horne- www.davidhorne.net
usenet (at) davidhorne (dot) co (dot) uk
May 25th 2005, 4:29 am
#98
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: French accent
On Wed, 25 May 2005 11:48:39 +0200, Mxsmanic <[email protected]>
wrote:
>Padraig Breathnach writes:
>> That's a male perspective.
>To some extent it's a female perspective, too. Many American women
>visiting France complain that the men all seem like scrawny, stuck-up
>wimps.
First hand experience or what?
wrote:
>Padraig Breathnach writes:
>> That's a male perspective.
>To some extent it's a female perspective, too. Many American women
>visiting France complain that the men all seem like scrawny, stuck-up
>wimps.
First hand experience or what?
May 25th 2005, 4:37 am
#99
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: French accent
John Owens wrote:
> "chancellor of the duchy of besses o' th' barn and prestwich tesco"
> <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:1gx2tk7.ogrwoqnwh6yoN%this_address_is_for_spa [email protected]...
>> nitram <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> On Tue, 24 May 2005 16:10:52 +0100,
>>> [email protected] (chancellor of the duchy of
>>> besses o' th' barn and prestwich tesco) wrote:
>>>> kyrha <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>> Hi everybody
>>>>> I'm french and I'd like to know your opinion about french accent
>>>>> Thank you for your answers
>> It's an acute problem.
>> --
>> David Horne- www.davidhorne.net
>> usenet (at) davidhorne (dot) co (dot) uk
> circumflexiul issue.
> too difficult for newsgroups ?
No, I'm afraid the word circumflexiul does not exist. So clearly it is is
too difficult (not only for us pedants here on rec.uk.humour).
Nitram can cope with circumcision. Some of the rest can cope with
circumflexion. Personally I have a headache, and am going to lie down.
Bon chance. (or something)
John.
> "chancellor of the duchy of besses o' th' barn and prestwich tesco"
> <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:1gx2tk7.ogrwoqnwh6yoN%this_address_is_for_spa [email protected]...
>> nitram <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> On Tue, 24 May 2005 16:10:52 +0100,
>>> [email protected] (chancellor of the duchy of
>>> besses o' th' barn and prestwich tesco) wrote:
>>>> kyrha <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>> Hi everybody
>>>>> I'm french and I'd like to know your opinion about french accent
>>>>> Thank you for your answers
>> It's an acute problem.
>> --
>> David Horne- www.davidhorne.net
>> usenet (at) davidhorne (dot) co (dot) uk
> circumflexiul issue.
> too difficult for newsgroups ?
No, I'm afraid the word circumflexiul does not exist. So clearly it is is
too difficult (not only for us pedants here on rec.uk.humour).
Nitram can cope with circumcision. Some of the rest can cope with
circumflexion. Personally I have a headache, and am going to lie down.
Bon chance. (or something)
John.
May 25th 2005, 5:03 am
#100
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: French accent
Stanislas de Kertanguy writes:
> I don't really care about the alleged relationship between brain changes
> and language abilities.
OK, I guess there's no arguing with that.
--
Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly.
> I don't really care about the alleged relationship between brain changes
> and language abilities.
OK, I guess there's no arguing with that.
--
Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly.
May 25th 2005, 5:03 am
#101
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: French accent
Mxsmanic <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Of course it does. It does change (in mass, and size) with age as well
> > as with certain diseases.
>
> No cause and effect relationship has been shown between any normal
> physiological change in the brain after birth and the aptitude for
> learning languages. The notion that something magic happens to brain
> structure that prevents people from achieving native fluency in new
> languages after some particular age is pure conjecture, even though
> linguists seem to accept it as gospel.
I don't really care about the alleged relationship between brain changes
and language abilities. You claimed that << The brain does not change.
That's a persistent urban legend. >> and it's false, period.
--
inversez "kertanguy" et "de" pour me joindre
> > Of course it does. It does change (in mass, and size) with age as well
> > as with certain diseases.
>
> No cause and effect relationship has been shown between any normal
> physiological change in the brain after birth and the aptitude for
> learning languages. The notion that something magic happens to brain
> structure that prevents people from achieving native fluency in new
> languages after some particular age is pure conjecture, even though
> linguists seem to accept it as gospel.
I don't really care about the alleged relationship between brain changes
and language abilities. You claimed that << The brain does not change.
That's a persistent urban legend. >> and it's false, period.
--
inversez "kertanguy" et "de" pour me joindre
May 25th 2005, 5:03 am
#102
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: French accent
nitram writes:
> First hand experience or what?
This comes from direct conversations with many American women, yes.
--
Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly.
> First hand experience or what?
This comes from direct conversations with many American women, yes.
--
Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly.
May 25th 2005, 5:15 am
#103
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: French accent
On Wed, 25 May 2005 17:26:41 +0100, [email protected]
(chancellor of the duchy of besses o' th' barn and prestwich tesco)
wrote:
>
>Mxsmanic <[email protected]> wrote:
[----]
>> > Give an example please.
>>
>> I can't, without audio,
>You shouldn't need audio, for gawd's sake.
>> but supposedly there are "polite" and "neutral"
>> ways to say a given sentence, with variations in pitch.
>Give an example, then.
>> The problem is
>> that these distinctions are extremely specific to parts of the UK,
>Which parts.
>> and
>> are completely irrelevant throughout the rest of the English-speaking
>> world.
>>
>> > Which book are you referring to, and more importantly perhaps, when was
>> > it published?
>>
>> See above, but there are several. Most were published within the past
>> five years or so. Some are brand-new.
>Hm....
>> > Not any more. If anything, regional accents are becoming more popular,
>> > though you're not going to find someone with a strong scouse accent
>> > reading the national news. There are practical reasons for that, and
>> > you'll find the same thing in other societies.
>>
>> Someone needs to tell the publishers, then.
>Just give us an example of what you're talking about.
>> > Do enlighten the British readers as to what they are. I for one am
>> > fascinated.
>>
>> It's more a question of what they aren't.
>Yet you can't mention _one_. Fascinating.
That cheese is getting more slippery as time goes on..........
Keith, Bristol, UK
DE-MUNG for email replies
(chancellor of the duchy of besses o' th' barn and prestwich tesco)
wrote:
>
>Mxsmanic <[email protected]> wrote:
[----]
>> > Give an example please.
>>
>> I can't, without audio,
>You shouldn't need audio, for gawd's sake.
>> but supposedly there are "polite" and "neutral"
>> ways to say a given sentence, with variations in pitch.
>Give an example, then.
>> The problem is
>> that these distinctions are extremely specific to parts of the UK,
>Which parts.
>> and
>> are completely irrelevant throughout the rest of the English-speaking
>> world.
>>
>> > Which book are you referring to, and more importantly perhaps, when was
>> > it published?
>>
>> See above, but there are several. Most were published within the past
>> five years or so. Some are brand-new.
>Hm....
>> > Not any more. If anything, regional accents are becoming more popular,
>> > though you're not going to find someone with a strong scouse accent
>> > reading the national news. There are practical reasons for that, and
>> > you'll find the same thing in other societies.
>>
>> Someone needs to tell the publishers, then.
>Just give us an example of what you're talking about.
>> > Do enlighten the British readers as to what they are. I for one am
>> > fascinated.
>>
>> It's more a question of what they aren't.
>Yet you can't mention _one_. Fascinating.
That cheese is getting more slippery as time goes on..........
Keith, Bristol, UK
DE-MUNG for email replies
May 25th 2005, 5:28 am
#104
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: French accent
On Wed, 25 May 2005 15:22:14 +0100, "Miss L. Toe"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>"Deep Foiled Malls" <deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu> wrote in
>message news:[email protected]...
>> On 25 May 2005 04:32:45 -0700, "george" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> >We used to have a Scottish secretary, here accent was pure sex!
>> You must be having a different type of sex than me.
>Never heard of phone sex ?
Hello, darlin', what's your name then? Mick? Oh, Mixi. Sorry, I
misheard. So what's a big boy like you doing today, then? Oooh, you're
down the allottment, are you? Mmmm.....growing anything interesting?
Like prize-winning cucumbers, eh? Oh, what a SHAME you're not
interested in vegetables, Mixi. I've got ALL SORTS of ideas! Oh, but
you like big, squidgy McD's do you? Oh, YES, covered with creamy
mayonnaise. Mmmmm, Mixi darling, I just LOVE my McD's smeared with
mayonnaise....Mwaaaahhh!
Beeeeeeeep. I'm sorry, but there is no more credit left on your
Intergalactaphone.
Keith, Bristol, UK
DE-MUNG for email replies
<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>"Deep Foiled Malls" <deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu> wrote in
>message news:[email protected]...
>> On 25 May 2005 04:32:45 -0700, "george" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> >We used to have a Scottish secretary, here accent was pure sex!
>> You must be having a different type of sex than me.
>Never heard of phone sex ?
Hello, darlin', what's your name then? Mick? Oh, Mixi. Sorry, I
misheard. So what's a big boy like you doing today, then? Oooh, you're
down the allottment, are you? Mmmm.....growing anything interesting?
Like prize-winning cucumbers, eh? Oh, what a SHAME you're not
interested in vegetables, Mixi. I've got ALL SORTS of ideas! Oh, but
you like big, squidgy McD's do you? Oh, YES, covered with creamy
mayonnaise. Mmmmm, Mixi darling, I just LOVE my McD's smeared with
mayonnaise....Mwaaaahhh!
Beeeeeeeep. I'm sorry, but there is no more credit left on your
Intergalactaphone.
Keith, Bristol, UK
DE-MUNG for email replies
May 25th 2005, 5:39 am
#105
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: French accent
In article <[email protected]>, <> wrote:
> On Tue, 24 May 2005 17:35:31 -0700, in rec.travel.europe, Citizen Ted
> <[email protected]> arranged some electrons, so they looked
> like this :
>
> ... On 24 May 2005 07:55:21 -0700, "kyrha" <[email protected]> wrote:
> ...
> ... >Hi everybody
> ... >I'm french and I'd like to know your opinion about french accent
> ... >Thank you for your answers
> ...
> ... Women with French accents sound terrific and sexy. Men with French
> ... accents sound like putzes.
>
> From my POV it's the other way round. :))
>
My experience in France last year was that 95% of the population speaks
French even when they pretend to speak English. Our "English-speaking"
guide on one section of the trip didn't even use the English words for
several things, just the French cognate. A cognate may or may not mean
exactly the same thing in both languages. And then there's the French
intonation pattern they never seem to lose unless they've spent several
years in an English-speaking country when fairly young.
--
Mary Loomer Oliver (aka Erilar)
You can't reason with someone whose first line of argument
is that reason doesn't count. Isaac Asimov
Erilar's Cave Annex: http://www.airstreamcomm.net/~erilarlo
> On Tue, 24 May 2005 17:35:31 -0700, in rec.travel.europe, Citizen Ted
> <[email protected]> arranged some electrons, so they looked
> like this :
>
> ... On 24 May 2005 07:55:21 -0700, "kyrha" <[email protected]> wrote:
> ...
> ... >Hi everybody
> ... >I'm french and I'd like to know your opinion about french accent
> ... >Thank you for your answers
> ...
> ... Women with French accents sound terrific and sexy. Men with French
> ... accents sound like putzes.
>
> From my POV it's the other way round. :))
>
My experience in France last year was that 95% of the population speaks
French even when they pretend to speak English. Our "English-speaking"
guide on one section of the trip didn't even use the English words for
several things, just the French cognate. A cognate may or may not mean
exactly the same thing in both languages. And then there's the French
intonation pattern they never seem to lose unless they've spent several
years in an English-speaking country when fairly young.
--
Mary Loomer Oliver (aka Erilar)
You can't reason with someone whose first line of argument
is that reason doesn't count. Isaac Asimov
Erilar's Cave Annex: http://www.airstreamcomm.net/~erilarlo
