European trains
Feb 2nd 2003, 9:08 pm
#46
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: European trains
"Harvey V" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sun, 02 Feb 2003 22:40:38 GMT, RAK wrote
> -snip-
> > Old commuter trains with non-corridor compartments (i.e. each
> > compartment has doors at each side to the platform, and no
> > connection to adjacent compartments) were 5+5 as far as I
> > remember, i.e. more seats but less standing room
> This has nothing to do with seating capacity, but I seem to recall that
> they finally ditched those for security reasons.
> (Wasn't there a woman killed/raped in one of them about 10 or 15 years
> ago (Wimbledon?), and it was clear she'd no way of escaping since there
> was no way to move along the carriage?)
I don't remember that case but I think you are right about the security
reasons - people were often trapped in compartments with drunks, thieves,
etc. and no way to escape or call for help.
Roger
news:[email protected]...
> On Sun, 02 Feb 2003 22:40:38 GMT, RAK wrote
> -snip-
> > Old commuter trains with non-corridor compartments (i.e. each
> > compartment has doors at each side to the platform, and no
> > connection to adjacent compartments) were 5+5 as far as I
> > remember, i.e. more seats but less standing room
> This has nothing to do with seating capacity, but I seem to recall that
> they finally ditched those for security reasons.
> (Wasn't there a woman killed/raped in one of them about 10 or 15 years
> ago (Wimbledon?), and it was clear she'd no way of escaping since there
> was no way to move along the carriage?)
I don't remember that case but I think you are right about the security
reasons - people were often trapped in compartments with drunks, thieves,
etc. and no way to escape or call for help.
Roger
Feb 2nd 2003, 9:15 pm
#47
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: European trains
RAK schrieb:
> I don't remember that case but I think you are right about the security
> reasons - people were often trapped in compartments with drunks, thieves,
> etc. and no way to escape or call for help.
Most UK slam door commuter trains that I experienced had a very
narrow central gangway that allowed to walk along the train.
Many local trains in Britain are very old. Now it's required by
law to replace them (not just because of the security problems
of being enclosed in a compartment, but also due to crash-
worthiness reasons), which results in the huge orders of Desiro
UK and similar trains.
--
tobias benjamin köhler ____________________________ [email protected]
_________ ______________ ______________ ______________ __>_____
========H|H============H|H============H|H========= ===H|=H=====`)
------oo-^-oo--------oo-^-oo--------oo-^-oo--------oo-^o-o--o-o=
> I don't remember that case but I think you are right about the security
> reasons - people were often trapped in compartments with drunks, thieves,
> etc. and no way to escape or call for help.
Most UK slam door commuter trains that I experienced had a very
narrow central gangway that allowed to walk along the train.
Many local trains in Britain are very old. Now it's required by
law to replace them (not just because of the security problems
of being enclosed in a compartment, but also due to crash-
worthiness reasons), which results in the huge orders of Desiro
UK and similar trains.
--
tobias benjamin köhler ____________________________ [email protected]
_________ ______________ ______________ ______________ __>_____
========H|H============H|H============H|H========= ===H|=H=====`)
------oo-^-oo--------oo-^-oo--------oo-^-oo--------oo-^o-o--o-o=
Feb 3rd 2003, 6:17 am
#48
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: European trains
In message
tobias b koehler wrote:
>
>
> RAK schrieb:
>
> > I don't remember that case but I think you are right about the security
> > reasons - people were often trapped in compartments with drunks, thieves,
> > etc. and no way to escape or call for help.
>
> Most UK slam door commuter trains that I experienced had a very
> narrow central gangway that allowed to walk along the train.
>
Non-gangwayed compartment stock existed until about the mid 70s.
--
Graeme Wall
Transport Miscellany at
tobias b koehler wrote:
>
>
> RAK schrieb:
>
> > I don't remember that case but I think you are right about the security
> > reasons - people were often trapped in compartments with drunks, thieves,
> > etc. and no way to escape or call for help.
>
> Most UK slam door commuter trains that I experienced had a very
> narrow central gangway that allowed to walk along the train.
>
Non-gangwayed compartment stock existed until about the mid 70s.
--
Graeme Wall
Transport Miscellany at
Feb 4th 2003, 5:24 am
#49
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: European trains
On Mon, 03 Feb 2003 19:17:43 GMT, Graeme Wall wrote
> In message
> tobias b koehler wrote:
>> Most UK slam door commuter trains that I experienced had a very
>> narrow central gangway that allowed to walk along the train.
> Non-gangwayed compartment stock existed until about the mid 70s.
There were definitely a few of them still in use on commuter routes
around London when I moved to England in 1982, but I think they
disappeared shortly afterwards.
--
Cheers, Harvey
Ottawa/Toronto/Edmonton for 30 years;
Southern England for the past 20 years.
For e-mail, harvey becomes whhvs.
> In message
> tobias b koehler wrote:
>> Most UK slam door commuter trains that I experienced had a very
>> narrow central gangway that allowed to walk along the train.
> Non-gangwayed compartment stock existed until about the mid 70s.
There were definitely a few of them still in use on commuter routes
around London when I moved to England in 1982, but I think they
disappeared shortly afterwards.
--
Cheers, Harvey
Ottawa/Toronto/Edmonton for 30 years;
Southern England for the past 20 years.
For e-mail, harvey becomes whhvs.
Feb 4th 2003, 5:39 am
#50
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: European trains
greg byshenk schrieb:
> > > Are there still trains with compartments in Europe? I much prefer
> > > compartments to bus-like open cars.
>
> > It depends on the train. Local service usually has more commuter like
> > seating, but long distance routes usually have compartments.
>
> It depends on the train, and on where you are.
>
> As I noted previously, in the Netherlands, compartments are more likely
> to be found on local trains. I can't absouletly rule out compartments
> on long-distance trains, but I have never been on a long-distance train
> in NL (either internal or international) with compartments. (Sleeping
> compartments on night trains excepted.)
I have been on one from Cologne to Delft (- Den Haag) with one DB Bm
compartment car in it ;-)
Regards & X-post, ULF
> > > Are there still trains with compartments in Europe? I much prefer
> > > compartments to bus-like open cars.
>
> > It depends on the train. Local service usually has more commuter like
> > seating, but long distance routes usually have compartments.
>
> It depends on the train, and on where you are.
>
> As I noted previously, in the Netherlands, compartments are more likely
> to be found on local trains. I can't absouletly rule out compartments
> on long-distance trains, but I have never been on a long-distance train
> in NL (either internal or international) with compartments. (Sleeping
> compartments on night trains excepted.)
I have been on one from Cologne to Delft (- Den Haag) with one DB Bm
compartment car in it ;-)
Regards & X-post, ULF
Feb 4th 2003, 6:34 am
#51
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: European trains
Ulf Kutzner schrieb:
> greg byshenk schrieb:
>>As I noted previously, in the Netherlands, compartments are more likely
>>to be found on local trains. I can't absouletly rule out compartments
>>on long-distance trains, but I have never been on a long-distance train
>>in NL (either internal or international) with compartments. (Sleeping
>>compartments on night trains excepted.)
> I have been on one from Cologne to Delft (- Den Haag) with one DB Bm
> compartment car in it ;-)
The EuroCity trains from Amsterdam to Switzerland used to have
a compartment car in second class (Bm 235, later Bimz-something).
Nowadays I see that there is only one such train left (EC 2/3)
and it has an ARkimbz bistro car only. So I guess that the
service compartments will be in the first class part of the
ARkimbz.
--
tobias benjamin köhler ____________________________ [email protected]
_________ ______________ ______________ ______________ __>_____
========H|H============H|H============H|H========= ===H|=H=====`)
------oo-^-oo--------oo-^-oo--------oo-^-oo--------oo-^o-o--o-o=
> greg byshenk schrieb:
>>As I noted previously, in the Netherlands, compartments are more likely
>>to be found on local trains. I can't absouletly rule out compartments
>>on long-distance trains, but I have never been on a long-distance train
>>in NL (either internal or international) with compartments. (Sleeping
>>compartments on night trains excepted.)
> I have been on one from Cologne to Delft (- Den Haag) with one DB Bm
> compartment car in it ;-)
The EuroCity trains from Amsterdam to Switzerland used to have
a compartment car in second class (Bm 235, later Bimz-something).
Nowadays I see that there is only one such train left (EC 2/3)
and it has an ARkimbz bistro car only. So I guess that the
service compartments will be in the first class part of the
ARkimbz.
--
tobias benjamin köhler ____________________________ [email protected]
_________ ______________ ______________ ______________ __>_____
========H|H============H|H============H|H========= ===H|=H=====`)
------oo-^-oo--------oo-^-oo--------oo-^-oo--------oo-^o-o--o-o=
Feb 4th 2003, 1:03 pm
#52
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: European trains
In article Ulf Kutzner writes:
> greg byshenk schrieb:
> > As I noted previously, in the Netherlands, compartments are more likely
> > to be found on local trains. I can't absouletly rule out compartments
> > on long-distance trains, but I have never been on a long-distance train
> > in NL (either internal or international) with compartments. (Sleeping
> > compartments on night trains excepted.)
>
> I have been on one from Cologne to Delft (- Den Haag) with one DB Bm
> compartment car in it ;-)
Yup, Greg Bushenk was wrong. In the Netherlands there is nearly no
train with compartments. And if there are there are only very few.
This is for national trains. The situation is a bit different with
international trains.
This situation already did exist with the introduction of the diesel
and electric trainsets in the 1930s. The last trainset build with
compartments is, as far as I know, the 4 vehicle 4100 series trainsets
from the 80s. In all 2 6-seat compartments. Everything else is
open seating.
--
dik t. winter, cwi, kruislaan 413, 1098 sj amsterdam, nederland, +31205924131
home: bovenover 215, 1025 jn amsterdam, nederland; http://www.cwi.nl/~dik/
> greg byshenk schrieb:
> > As I noted previously, in the Netherlands, compartments are more likely
> > to be found on local trains. I can't absouletly rule out compartments
> > on long-distance trains, but I have never been on a long-distance train
> > in NL (either internal or international) with compartments. (Sleeping
> > compartments on night trains excepted.)
>
> I have been on one from Cologne to Delft (- Den Haag) with one DB Bm
> compartment car in it ;-)
Yup, Greg Bushenk was wrong. In the Netherlands there is nearly no
train with compartments. And if there are there are only very few.
This is for national trains. The situation is a bit different with
international trains.
This situation already did exist with the introduction of the diesel
and electric trainsets in the 1930s. The last trainset build with
compartments is, as far as I know, the 4 vehicle 4100 series trainsets
from the 80s. In all 2 6-seat compartments. Everything else is
open seating.
--
dik t. winter, cwi, kruislaan 413, 1098 sj amsterdam, nederland, +31205924131
home: bovenover 215, 1025 jn amsterdam, nederland; http://www.cwi.nl/~dik/
Feb 4th 2003, 6:47 pm
#53
Guest
Posts: n/a
NS compartment cars (was: European trains)
Dik T. Winter schrieb:
> This situation already did exist with the introduction of the diesel
> and electric trainsets in the 1930s. The last trainset build with
> compartments is, as far as I know, the 4 vehicle 4100 series trainsets
> from the 80s. In all 2 6-seat compartments. Everything else is
> open seating.
Most European railways used have some sort of compartment cars
for international trains in epoch III/IV. In the case of DB and
DR these were the same as used for domestic express trains,
sometimes in a version with multi-voltage electric supply but
otherwise identical, the SNCF had the UIC-Y cars, the NMBS/SNCB
the various I-series, the SBB/CFF/FFS the RIC cars (though these
have been replaced by all-open EC cars), and so on.
Did the NS ever have international coaches with compartments in
the 1950s/1960s/etc.? I am not aware of their locomotive-hauled
express cars before the ICR.
Thinking about the NS, they do have some compartment cars: The
ex-DB Avmz 111 and Bm 235, classic German Intercity cars
acquired second hand. The Avmz 111 used to be used in night
trains, what's happening with them now that NS International
doesn't have any more international night trains? Given to NS
Reizigers? The Bm 235 were modernized as "ICK" cars, some of
them converted to first class - where do they operate?
--
tobias benjamin köhler ____________________________ [email protected]
_________ ______________ ______________ ______________ __>_____
========H|H============H|H============H|H========= ===H|=H=====`)
------oo-^-oo--------oo-^-oo--------oo-^-oo--------oo-^o-o--o-o=
> This situation already did exist with the introduction of the diesel
> and electric trainsets in the 1930s. The last trainset build with
> compartments is, as far as I know, the 4 vehicle 4100 series trainsets
> from the 80s. In all 2 6-seat compartments. Everything else is
> open seating.
Most European railways used have some sort of compartment cars
for international trains in epoch III/IV. In the case of DB and
DR these were the same as used for domestic express trains,
sometimes in a version with multi-voltage electric supply but
otherwise identical, the SNCF had the UIC-Y cars, the NMBS/SNCB
the various I-series, the SBB/CFF/FFS the RIC cars (though these
have been replaced by all-open EC cars), and so on.
Did the NS ever have international coaches with compartments in
the 1950s/1960s/etc.? I am not aware of their locomotive-hauled
express cars before the ICR.
Thinking about the NS, they do have some compartment cars: The
ex-DB Avmz 111 and Bm 235, classic German Intercity cars
acquired second hand. The Avmz 111 used to be used in night
trains, what's happening with them now that NS International
doesn't have any more international night trains? Given to NS
Reizigers? The Bm 235 were modernized as "ICK" cars, some of
them converted to first class - where do they operate?
--
tobias benjamin köhler ____________________________ [email protected]
_________ ______________ ______________ ______________ __>_____
========H|H============H|H============H|H========= ===H|=H=====`)
------oo-^-oo--------oo-^-oo--------oo-^-oo--------oo-^o-o--o-o=
Feb 4th 2003, 10:37 pm
#54
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: NS compartment cars (was: European trains)
On Wed, 05 Feb 2003 07:47:15 GMT, tobias b koehler wrote:
>Thinking about the NS, they do have some compartment cars: The
>ex-DB Avmz 111 and Bm 235, classic German Intercity cars
>acquired second hand. The Avmz 111 used to be used in night
>trains, what's happening with them now that NS International
>doesn't have any more international night trains? Given to NS
>Reizigers?
There are reports of them being used for a replacement train when the
ICE fails... or when Frankfurt sent a mono-system ICE3, which of course
can't go any further than Emmerich.
>The Bm 235 were modernized as "ICK" cars, some of
>them converted to first class - where do they operate?
Den Haag - Heerlen and Den Haag - Venlo.
Regards,
Rian
--
Rian van der Borgt, Leuven, Belgium.
email: [email protected] www: http://www.xs4all.be/~rvdborgt/
Fix Outlook/Outlook Express: http://jump.to/oe-quotefix
>Thinking about the NS, they do have some compartment cars: The
>ex-DB Avmz 111 and Bm 235, classic German Intercity cars
>acquired second hand. The Avmz 111 used to be used in night
>trains, what's happening with them now that NS International
>doesn't have any more international night trains? Given to NS
>Reizigers?
There are reports of them being used for a replacement train when the
ICE fails... or when Frankfurt sent a mono-system ICE3, which of course
can't go any further than Emmerich.
>The Bm 235 were modernized as "ICK" cars, some of
>them converted to first class - where do they operate?
Den Haag - Heerlen and Den Haag - Venlo.
Regards,
Rian
--
Rian van der Borgt, Leuven, Belgium.
email: [email protected] www: http://www.xs4all.be/~rvdborgt/
Fix Outlook/Outlook Express: http://jump.to/oe-quotefix
Feb 4th 2003, 11:55 pm
#55
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: European trains
Dik T. Winter wrote:
> Ulf Kutzner writes:
> > greg byshenk schrieb:
> > > As I noted previously, in the Netherlands, compartments are more likely
> > > to be found on local trains. I can't absouletly rule out compartments
> > > on long-distance trains, but I have never been on a long-distance train
> > > in NL (either internal or international) with compartments. (Sleeping
> > > compartments on night trains excepted.)
> > I have been on one from Cologne to Delft (- Den Haag) with one DB Bm
> > compartment car in it ;-)
> Yup, Greg Bushenk was wrong. In the Netherlands there is nearly no
> train with compartments. And if there are there are only very few.
> This is for national trains. The situation is a bit different with
> international trains.
I'm wrong a lot of the time -- hence the disclaimer in my original
message.
But since last year there are more compartment cars used by NS, with
the addition of the refurbished DB railcars. I've frequently seen
trains made up of these railcars in Den Haag HS, heading to or from
Den Haag Centraal. I _think_ I've even seen some on one occasion at
Amsterdam Centraal -- but my memory may be playing me false on this
count.
> This situation already did exist with the introduction of the diesel
> and electric trainsets in the 1930s. The last trainset build with
> compartments is, as far as I know, the 4 vehicle 4100 series trainsets
> from the 80s. In all 2 6-seat compartments. Everything else is
> open seating.
Except for the refurbished DB railcars.
--
greg byshenk - [email protected] - Leiden, NL
hate spam?
> Ulf Kutzner writes:
> > greg byshenk schrieb:
> > > As I noted previously, in the Netherlands, compartments are more likely
> > > to be found on local trains. I can't absouletly rule out compartments
> > > on long-distance trains, but I have never been on a long-distance train
> > > in NL (either internal or international) with compartments. (Sleeping
> > > compartments on night trains excepted.)
> > I have been on one from Cologne to Delft (- Den Haag) with one DB Bm
> > compartment car in it ;-)
> Yup, Greg Bushenk was wrong. In the Netherlands there is nearly no
> train with compartments. And if there are there are only very few.
> This is for national trains. The situation is a bit different with
> international trains.
I'm wrong a lot of the time -- hence the disclaimer in my original
message.
But since last year there are more compartment cars used by NS, with
the addition of the refurbished DB railcars. I've frequently seen
trains made up of these railcars in Den Haag HS, heading to or from
Den Haag Centraal. I _think_ I've even seen some on one occasion at
Amsterdam Centraal -- but my memory may be playing me false on this
count.
> This situation already did exist with the introduction of the diesel
> and electric trainsets in the 1930s. The last trainset build with
> compartments is, as far as I know, the 4 vehicle 4100 series trainsets
> from the 80s. In all 2 6-seat compartments. Everything else is
> open seating.
Except for the refurbished DB railcars.
--
greg byshenk - [email protected] - Leiden, NL
hate spam?
Feb 5th 2003, 7:03 am
#56
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: European trains
greg byshenk schrieb:
> > This situation already did exist with the introduction of the diesel
> > and electric trainsets in the 1930s. The last trainset build with
> > compartments is, as far as I know, the 4 vehicle 4100 series trainsets
> > from the 80s. In all 2 6-seat compartments. Everything else is
> > open seating.
>
> Except for the refurbished DB railcars.
What about ex-SNCF cars?
Regards, ULF
> > This situation already did exist with the introduction of the diesel
> > and electric trainsets in the 1930s. The last trainset build with
> > compartments is, as far as I know, the 4 vehicle 4100 series trainsets
> > from the 80s. In all 2 6-seat compartments. Everything else is
> > open seating.
>
> Except for the refurbished DB railcars.
What about ex-SNCF cars?
Regards, ULF
Feb 5th 2003, 8:59 am
#57
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: European trains
On Wed, 05 Feb 2003 21:03:52 +0100, Ulf Kutzner wrote:
>greg byshenk schrieb:
>>>This situation already did exist with the introduction of the diesel
>>>and electric trainsets in the 1930s. The last trainset build with
>>>compartments is, as far as I know, the 4 vehicle 4100 series trainsets
>>>from the 80s. In all 2 6-seat compartments. Everything else is
>>>open seating.
>>Except for the refurbished DB railcars.
>What about ex-SNCF cars?
Some of them are still being used by NS, but they will be returned to
the NMBS after the Summer.
Regards,
Rian
--
Rian van der Borgt, Leuven, Belgium.
email: [email protected] www: http://www.xs4all.be/~rvdborgt/
Fix Outlook/Outlook Express: http://jump.to/oe-quotefix
>greg byshenk schrieb:
>>>This situation already did exist with the introduction of the diesel
>>>and electric trainsets in the 1930s. The last trainset build with
>>>compartments is, as far as I know, the 4 vehicle 4100 series trainsets
>>>from the 80s. In all 2 6-seat compartments. Everything else is
>>>open seating.
>>Except for the refurbished DB railcars.
>What about ex-SNCF cars?
Some of them are still being used by NS, but they will be returned to
the NMBS after the Summer.
Regards,
Rian
--
Rian van der Borgt, Leuven, Belgium.
email: [email protected] www: http://www.xs4all.be/~rvdborgt/
Fix Outlook/Outlook Express: http://jump.to/oe-quotefix
Feb 5th 2003, 9:50 am
#58
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: European trains
Ulf Kutzner wrote about NS cars:
> What about ex-SNCF cars?
If you mean these here
http://www.lsmodels.com/LS/Pages_F/P...es%20USI_F.htm
(scroll down to the end)
they don't have compartments.
--
tobias benjamin köhler ____________________________ [email protected]
_________ ______________ ______________ ______________ __>_____
========H|H============H|H============H|H========= ===H|=H=====`)
------oo-^-oo--------oo-^-oo--------oo-^-oo--------oo-^o-o--o-o=
> What about ex-SNCF cars?
If you mean these here
http://www.lsmodels.com/LS/Pages_F/P...es%20USI_F.htm
(scroll down to the end)
they don't have compartments.
--
tobias benjamin köhler ____________________________ [email protected]
_________ ______________ ______________ ______________ __>_____
========H|H============H|H============H|H========= ===H|=H=====`)
------oo-^-oo--------oo-^-oo--------oo-^-oo--------oo-^o-o--o-o=
Feb 5th 2003, 10:38 am
#59
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: European trains
On Wed, 05 Feb 2003 22:50:08 GMT, tobias b koehler wrote:
>Ulf Kutzner wrote about NS cars:
>>What about ex-SNCF cars?
>If you mean these here
>http://www.lsmodels.com/LS/Pages_F/P...es%20USI_F.htm
>(scroll down to the end)
>they don't have compartments.
NS rented 2 K4 2nd class subtypes. One of them is a bit higher than the
other and has compartments.
Regards,
Rian
--
Rian van der Borgt, Leuven, Belgium.
email: [email protected] www: http://www.xs4all.be/~rvdborgt/
Fix Outlook/Outlook Express: http://jump.to/oe-quotefix
>Ulf Kutzner wrote about NS cars:
>>What about ex-SNCF cars?
>If you mean these here
>http://www.lsmodels.com/LS/Pages_F/P...es%20USI_F.htm
>(scroll down to the end)
>they don't have compartments.
NS rented 2 K4 2nd class subtypes. One of them is a bit higher than the
other and has compartments.
Regards,
Rian
--
Rian van der Borgt, Leuven, Belgium.
email: [email protected] www: http://www.xs4all.be/~rvdborgt/
Fix Outlook/Outlook Express: http://jump.to/oe-quotefix
Feb 5th 2003, 1:46 pm
#60
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: NS compartment cars (was: European trains)
In article tobias b koehler writes:
> Did the NS ever have international coaches with compartments in
> the 1950s/1960s/etc.? I am not aware of their locomotive-hauled
> express cars before the ICR.
Yup. B 7001-7025 from 1958. Couchette coaches at first, later rebuild
to standard coaches. AB 7351-7380 from 1957/1958. Those were the last
build.
--
dik t. winter, cwi, kruislaan 413, 1098 sj amsterdam, nederland, +31205924131
home: bovenover 215, 1025 jn amsterdam, nederland; http://www.cwi.nl/~dik/
> Did the NS ever have international coaches with compartments in
> the 1950s/1960s/etc.? I am not aware of their locomotive-hauled
> express cars before the ICR.
Yup. B 7001-7025 from 1958. Couchette coaches at first, later rebuild
to standard coaches. AB 7351-7380 from 1957/1958. Those were the last
build.
--
dik t. winter, cwi, kruislaan 413, 1098 sj amsterdam, nederland, +31205924131
home: bovenover 215, 1025 jn amsterdam, nederland; http://www.cwi.nl/~dik/
