Toma Bacic

Tim wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > > > I think they still exist in Italy and they used to have them in
    > Yugoslavia.

Yes, all the ex-JZ compaies, nearly at all loco hauled services uses such
cars

toma

Greg Byshenk

Dave Smith wrote:
    > mimi wrote:

    > > Are there still trains with compartments in Europe? I much prefer
    > > compartments to bus-like open cars.

    > It depends on the train. Local service usually has more commuter like
    > seating, but long distance routes usually have compartments.

It depends on the train, and on where you are.

As I noted previously, in the Netherlands, compartments are more likely
to be found on local trains. I can't absouletly rule out compartments
on long-distance trains, but I have never been on a long-distance train
in NL (either internal or international) with compartments. (Sleeping
compartments on night trains excepted.)


--
greg byshenk - [email protected] - Leiden, NL
hate spam?

Tobias B Koehler

Ulf Kutzner schrieb:

    > "Douglas W. Hoyt" schrieb:

    >>In Germany, they often mix the two types on the same train. But to raise
    >>the stakes: to what extent are there still trains with compartments AND
    >>windows that open (the ultimate in train travel) !?!?!?!

I can't find the original posting ...

As some passengers prefer compartments and other prefer open
seating (or for some it even depends whether they travel alone or
with a group), it is best from a passenger's point of view if a
train has both.

Germany, France, Italy, Austria, Czech republic, Poland are just a
few examples of countries which partly use compartment cars; if
these are not air-conditioned, they have opening windows.

You can find compartments in ICE 1 (1st and 2nd class) and ICE 3
(1st class, but I'm not sure whether the recent rebuilding kept the
compartments).

In many eastern european countries the standard car in express
trains has compartments with 8-seat benches in 2nd class and half-
opening windows.

Of course if you want a window that REALLY opens (and not just half),
I can suggest that you take a class 4010 EMU in Austria, though there
are three types of windows: Full-opening, half-opening and closed (in
some cars rebuilt with air-conditioning), and it is not predictable
which one you get, as these three types of cars are mixed by the
chaos principle. Austria also has a good number of 2nd class
compartment cars in locomotive hauled trains without air-conditioning,
with half-opening windows, but is intending to rebuild them.

    > Recent IC cars are made for tunnel sections to be passed at 200 km/h,
    > which is better without opening your window. Recent IC cars do have air
    > conditioning.

Since 1962 (for German 1st class). But not all air-conditioned
cars are airtight.

If you look at recently built EuroCity rolling stock (all air-
conditioned), you will notice some differences:

Switzerland: No compartments at all.
Austria: Compartments in both classes; 2nd class also open.
Hungary: Both compartments and open seating in both classes.
Czech republic: Compartments only in 2nd class. No compartments
in 1st class.

--
tobias benjamin köhler ____________________________ [email protected]
_________ ______________ ______________ ______________ __>_____
========H|H============H|H============H|H========= ===H|=H=====`)
------oo-^-oo--------oo-^-oo--------oo-^-oo--------oo-^o-o--o-o=

Grey

On Mon, 27 Jan 2003 04:41:34 GMT, John Bermont
wrote:

    >mimi wrote:
    >>
    >> Are there still trains with compartments in Europe? I much prefer
    >> compartments to bus-like open cars.
    >>
    >> Marianne
    >Yes, there are still trains with compartments. The open cars are more
    >like planes than buses, IMO.

Sorry, the best they can attain is temporary flight, and when they do,
you wouldn't want to be on them.

---------------------------
A truly cool book:
The World Is Already Yours
Conscious living in the real world
www.alreadyyours.com (sample chapter, etc...)

Grey

On Mon, 27 Jan 2003 04:24:06 GMT, "mimi" wrote:

    >Are there still trains with compartments in Europe? I much prefer
    >compartments to bus-like open cars.

I'm afraid compartments are being phased out. Much to many people's
dismay. Can still find some, though. It's been a long downhill path
from the days of not only individual compartments (with windows that
opened!), but also each compartment with its own outside door....

---------------------------
A truly cool book:
The World Is Already Yours
Conscious living in the real world
www.alreadyyours.com (sample chapter, etc...)

Grey

On Sun, 26 Jan 2003 23:04:58 -0600, "Douglas W. Hoyt"
wrote:

    >> Are there still trains with compartments in Europe? I much prefer
    >> compartments to bus-like open cars.
    >In Germany, they often mix the two types on the same train. But to raise
    >the stakes: to what extent are there still trains with compartments AND
    >windows that open (the ultimate in train travel) !?!?!?!

They all open. Just break the emergency seal at the top. That's what
we had to do when the a/c failed in Italy in August and the temp
reached 120F in our compartment.

---------------------------
A truly cool book:
The World Is Already Yours
Conscious living in the real world
www.alreadyyours.com (sample chapter, etc...)

Grey

On Mon, 27 Jan 2003 20:29:02 GMT, Go Fig wrote:

    >I not a fan of open salon style seating that is becoming more and more
    >popular, besides being a less social environment they are hermetically
    >sealed... its like being in an airplane.

Yeah, they're bad. Bring back compartments, I say.

---------------------------
A truly cool book:
The World Is Already Yours
Conscious living in the real world
www.alreadyyours.com (sample chapter, etc...)

Desmond Coughlan

le Sun, 02 Feb 2003 14:23:23 -0500, dans l'article , grey a dit ...=20

    >>Are there still trains with compartments in Europe? I much prefer
    >>compartments to bus-like open cars.

    > I'm afraid compartments are being phased out. Much to many people's
    > dismay. Can still find some, though. It's been a long downhill path
    > from the days of not only individual compartments (with windows that
    > opened!), but also each compartment with its own outside door....

According to France-3 news last night, 'Motorrail' is also being phased
out, at least to some cities, as it was costing the SNCF too much money.
Trains to Brittany and the West Coast are being cut back; those going to
the C=F4te d'Azur are being maintained. :-(

--=20
Desmond Coughlan=20
desmond @ zeouane.org
http: // www . zeouane . org

Rak

"Ulf Kutzner" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > Go Fig schrieb:
    > > I not a fan of open salon style seating that is becoming more and more
    > > popular, besides being a less social environment they are hermetically
    > > sealed... its like being in an airplane.
    > Not sure it is more popular, but 2+2 seating allows more seats in a car
    > than compartments for 6.
    > Regards & X-post, ULF

Maybe that applies in continental Europe.
I think that in the UK corridor compartments are/were 3+3 in 1st class but
4+4 in 2nd class, i.e. the same as open plan which are 2+1/2+1 in 1st and
2+2 in 2nd.
Old commuter trains with non-corridor compartments (i.e. each compartment
has doors at each side to the platform, and no connection to adjacent
compartments) were 5+5 as far as I remember, i.e. more seats but less
standing room

Roger

Harvey V

On Sun, 02 Feb 2003 22:40:38 GMT, RAK wrote

-snip-

    > Old commuter trains with non-corridor compartments (i.e. each
    > compartment has doors at each side to the platform, and no
    > connection to adjacent compartments) were 5+5 as far as I
    > remember, i.e. more seats but less standing room

This has nothing to do with seating capacity, but I seem to recall that
they finally ditched those for security reasons.

(Wasn't there a woman killed/raped in one of them about 10 or 15 years
ago (Wimbledon?), and it was clear she'd no way of escaping since there
was no way to move along the carriage?)

--
Cheers, Harvey

For e-mail, harvey becomes whhvs.

Dik T. Winter

In article "RAK" writes:
> "Ulf Kutzner" wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
...
> > Not sure it is more popular, but 2+2 seating allows more seats in a car
> > than compartments for 6.
>
> Maybe that applies in continental Europe.

I think that it was in Germany that 2nd class 6 seat compartments were
introduced in (I think) around 1960-1965 on long distance trains. I
checked and see I am wrong. According to Obermayer, Taschenbuch
Deutsche Reisezugwagen, 6 seat compartments in 2nd class (3rd class
at that time) were introduced with the C4um-52 (in later days reclassified
to Bm 231) from 1954. However, those were rarely used on non-DB
rolling stock. There it has been 8 seat compartments for a long time,
and I would think that those are still in use today in many European
countries (I have travelled in such to the Balkan in the 70s). On the
other hand, 2+3 seating in open 2nd class carriages has been abandoned in
most countries only fairly recently, and perhaps it is still in use on
local lines and in Belgium...

Compare that with the Shinkansen. Carriages are 0.90 m wider than UIC
stock. 1st class is 2+2, 2nd class 2+3 and 2nd class not reserved 3+3
in most units.

With respect to opening windows. I also do like them, but when two
trains pass at a fairly high speed and when you are going through a
tunnel, pressure differences can give a lot of problems to other
people.
--
dik t. winter, cwi, kruislaan 413, 1098 sj amsterdam, nederland, +31205924131
home: bovenover 215, 1025 jn amsterdam, nederland; http://www.cwi.nl/~dik/

Dik T. Winter

In article Harvey V writes:
> On Sun, 02 Feb 2003 22:40:38 GMT, RAK wrote
> > Old commuter trains with non-corridor compartments (i.e. each
> > compartment has doors at each side to the platform, and no
> > connection to adjacent compartments) were 5+5 as far as I
> > remember, i.e. more seats but less standing room
>
> This has nothing to do with seating capacity, but I seem to recall that
> they finally ditched those for security reasons.
>
> (Wasn't there a woman killed/raped in one of them about 10 or 15 years
> ago (Wimbledon?), and it was clear she'd no way of escaping since there
> was no way to move along the carriage?)

They have been in use in continental Europe also fairly long. But I think
they were ditched somewhere in the 50s (and some where compartments
seating 12). It was not only security, but also the guard who had problems
checking all people on a train. Entry checks to the platforms in
continental Europe were mostly abandoned in the 50s, so there was need
for a guard to check tickets. Also there are many more doors to close
when a train leaves on such trains, requiring more personnel on the
platform to do the actual closing. (Yes, I once have been in such a train
in the UK. My last problem was *how to get out at the destination*.)
--
dik t. winter, cwi, kruislaan 413, 1098 sj amsterdam, nederland, +31205924131
home: bovenover 215, 1025 jn amsterdam, nederland; http://www.cwi.nl/~dik/

Tobias B Koehler

Dik T. Winter schrieb:

    > I think that it was in Germany that 2nd class 6 seat compartments were
    > introduced in (I think) around 1960-1965 on long distance trains. I
    > checked and see I am wrong. According to Obermayer, Taschenbuch
    > Deutsche Reisezugwagen, 6 seat compartments in 2nd class (3rd class
    > at that time) were introduced with the C4um-52 (in later days reclassified
    > to Bm 231) from 1954. However, those were rarely used on non-DB
    > rolling stock.

These cars were built with more comfortable compartments in view
of the upcoming class reform of 1956: no more 3rd class, new 2nd
class an improved 3rd class (though many old 3rd class cars were
used up as 2nd class), 1st class a combination of old 1st and
2nd class (with air-conditioning for the best trains).

The Deutsche Reichsbahn had built 8-seat compartments much longer
(until the 1980s).

    > There it has been 8 seat compartments for a long time,
    > and I would think that those are still in use today in many European
    > countries (I have travelled in such to the Balkan in the 70s).

Slovenia, Croatia have 6-seat compartments in the vast majority of
trains. On the other hand you can still find 8-seat compartments
in France (even in modernized Corail cars).

    > Compare that with the Shinkansen. Carriages are 0.90 m wider than UIC
    > stock. 1st class is 2+2, 2nd class 2+3 and 2nd class not reserved 3+3
    > in most units.

3+3 only in the double-deck "Max" units.

    > With respect to opening windows. I also do like them, but when two
    > trains pass at a fairly high speed and when you are going through a
    > tunnel, pressure differences can give a lot of problems to other
    > people.

And many people scream as soon as someone opens the window as
they are terribly afraid of draughts of air, so as soon as one
such person is in the train, you either have to find a way to
silence them or you cannot have any fresh air even in the middle
of summer ....

--
tobias benjamin köhler ____________________________ [email protected]
_________ ______________ ______________ ______________ __>_____
========H|H============H|H============H|H========= ===H|=H=====`)
------oo-^-oo--------oo-^-oo--------oo-^-oo--------oo-^o-o--o-o=

Alan Harrison

"RAK" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > Maybe that applies in continental Europe.
    > I think that in the UK corridor compartments are/were 3+3 in 1st class but
    > 4+4 in 2nd class, i.e. the same as open plan which are 2+1/2+1 in 1st and
    > 2+2 in 2nd.

This is true of long and middle-distance stock, but in short-distance
commuter stock (e.g. all Thames Trains DMUs), seating is typically 2+2 in
first and 2+3 in standard (as second class is absurdly names in Britain and
Ireland).

Tobias B Koehler

Alan Harrison schrieb:

    > This is true of long and middle-distance stock, but in short-distance
    > commuter stock (e.g. all Thames Trains DMUs), seating is typically 2+2 in
    > first and 2+3 in standard (as second class is absurdly names in Britain and
    > Ireland).

Same in Scandinavia (Norway, Sweden):
Commuter trains are all 2nd class with typically 2+3 seating (in
slightly wider carbody than in central Europe).
Long distance trains (and regional trains on longer lines, such
as the interregional "Agenda" in Norway) have 2+2 seating in 2nd
class and 2+1 seating in 1st class. In these countries, 1st
class only exists on long distance trains, but 2nd class is
usually reasonably comfortable.

In Germany some regional DMUs (RegioSprinter DKB/Vogtland,
LINT Burgenland) have 2+3 seating with tram-like seats, as
part of an attempt to reduce cost of operation. Otherwise it's
2+2 seating throughout on regional trains, sometimes even in
1st class (in many recent regional trains, "1st class" is not
much different from 2nd class).

The new S-train Copenhagen has wide benches that provide 3+3
seating in times of high occupation and comfortable 2+2 seating
if the train is not full. I prefer this approach rather than
having very narrow individual seats.

Austria has no 1st class in local trains, which are again 2+2
throughout, with central corridor. Intercity trains have 6-seat
compartments in 1st and 2nd class (larger compartments in 1st
class), 2+2 or 2+1 seating in 2nd class (class 4010 and the
wheelchair-enabled BDmpsz cars have 2+1 arrangement). Newly
rebuilt 1st class intercity cars have 4-seat "business"
compartments with an extra surcharge and a 2+1 open seating
area, all with leather seats. In class 4010, 1st class is an
"open" car with 2+1 arrangement, a little more spacious than in
2nd class.

Switzerland has 1st class in almost all trains. The arrangement
is 2+2 in 2nd class, 2+1 in 1st class, compartments are not
common in inland trains. 1st class in commuter trains is 2+2,
also in the panorama cars of the Glacier-Express, which have
actually 2nd class seating, but you have to pay a 1st class
fare ....

I remember that the MOB Panoramic Express used to be exactly
the same in 1st and 2nd class, but meanwhile they rearranged it
(now called Golden Pass Panoramic Express), I think that 1st
class is better now (club cars and observation lounges in the
cab cars).

--
tobias benjamin köhler ____________________________ [email protected]
_________ ______________ ______________ ______________ __>_____
========H|H============H|H============H|H========= ===H|=H=====`)
------oo-^-oo--------oo-^-oo--------oo-^-oo--------oo-^o-o--o-o=