Europe VCR Formats
Aug 10th 2002 | 7:31 am
#31
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Re: Europe VCR Formats
Brian Howell (Office manager) <[email protected]> wrote:
> America uses NTSC (Never Twice the Same Colour) the UK uses PAL B, and France and
> most of Europe use SECAM.
I thought it was just France in Western Europe, and everyone else was on PAL. The
Netherlands certainly doesn't use SECAM.
> Sadly America is about 20 years behind the rest of the world in Televison
> transmission and recording technology.
Claiming that NTSC is "20 years behind" PAL shows a serious lack of perspective (or,
more forgivable, a penchant for hyperbole). I can't thinjk of a fair basis for
quantifying the difference, but I'd say it's maybe 15% tops.
miguel
--
Hit The Road! Photos and tales from around the world:
http://travel.u.nu New mini photo-feature: Life in
DC: http://travel.u.nu/dc/
> America uses NTSC (Never Twice the Same Colour) the UK uses PAL B, and France and
> most of Europe use SECAM.
I thought it was just France in Western Europe, and everyone else was on PAL. The
Netherlands certainly doesn't use SECAM.
> Sadly America is about 20 years behind the rest of the world in Televison
> transmission and recording technology.
Claiming that NTSC is "20 years behind" PAL shows a serious lack of perspective (or,
more forgivable, a penchant for hyperbole). I can't thinjk of a fair basis for
quantifying the difference, but I'd say it's maybe 15% tops.
miguel
--
Hit The Road! Photos and tales from around the world:
http://travel.u.nu New mini photo-feature: Life in
DC: http://travel.u.nu/dc/
Aug 10th 2002 | 7:44 am
#32
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Re: Europe VCR Formats
"Mark W. Borgeson" <[email protected]> a écrit dans le message de news:
[email protected] rg...
> I'm sure this question has been asked in this NG before, but will our (USA) VHS
> cassettes work in VCR's used in Europe (France)?
Fancier VCRs will read both PAL (European) and NTSC (USA) tapes, as well as SECAM
(French) tapes. The VCR must also be connected to a TV capable of handling video
input in the appropriate standard. The better television sets can do this. So it
will work, but only on the more expensive VCRs and TV sets. Most VCRs and TVs handle
both French SECAM (France is the only country of importance using SECAM) and European
PAL, but handling of the North American NTSC standard is not quite as widespread (it
is technically somewhat more difficult).
> Does anyone know if DVD Players are becoming popular in Europe?
DVD players are more popular in Europe than in the U.S. In fact, France has one of
the strongest DVD markets in the world.
Note, however, that DVDs are coded in "zones," and that DVD players by major
manufacturers will only play DVDs in certain zones (typically only the zone in which
the DVD player was sold). To play USA DVDs on a European DVD player, or vice versa,
you need a "multizone" player; some players are multizone out of the box (off brands,
usually), and some are modified after the factory to handle multiple zones, and are
then sold with that capability.
The zone system is a pure invention of studio lawyers; it is not a technical
restriction. However, it is implemented in the hardware, so you cannot get around it
without any appropriate DVD player.
On top of the zone system, there is still the issue of PAL or NTSC encoding of the
DVD. Most DVD players will output either signal, whichever is on the
DVD. You still need a TV that can handle the signal on input.
[email protected] rg...
> I'm sure this question has been asked in this NG before, but will our (USA) VHS
> cassettes work in VCR's used in Europe (France)?
Fancier VCRs will read both PAL (European) and NTSC (USA) tapes, as well as SECAM
(French) tapes. The VCR must also be connected to a TV capable of handling video
input in the appropriate standard. The better television sets can do this. So it
will work, but only on the more expensive VCRs and TV sets. Most VCRs and TVs handle
both French SECAM (France is the only country of importance using SECAM) and European
PAL, but handling of the North American NTSC standard is not quite as widespread (it
is technically somewhat more difficult).
> Does anyone know if DVD Players are becoming popular in Europe?
DVD players are more popular in Europe than in the U.S. In fact, France has one of
the strongest DVD markets in the world.
Note, however, that DVDs are coded in "zones," and that DVD players by major
manufacturers will only play DVDs in certain zones (typically only the zone in which
the DVD player was sold). To play USA DVDs on a European DVD player, or vice versa,
you need a "multizone" player; some players are multizone out of the box (off brands,
usually), and some are modified after the factory to handle multiple zones, and are
then sold with that capability.
The zone system is a pure invention of studio lawyers; it is not a technical
restriction. However, it is implemented in the hardware, so you cannot get around it
without any appropriate DVD player.
On top of the zone system, there is still the issue of PAL or NTSC encoding of the
DVD. Most DVD players will output either signal, whichever is on the
DVD. You still need a TV that can handle the signal on input.
Aug 10th 2002 | 7:46 am
#33
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Posts: n/a
Re: Europe VCR Formats
"J Quick" <[email protected]> a écrit dans le message de news:
[email protected] m...
> DVD equipment manufacturers and publishers are fighting very hard in court to
> maintain this "feature" to continue to force consumers to accept prices they set
> for the region.
> http://news.com.com/2100-1040-946-
> 640.html
The article you cite is about video games, not DVD players.
[email protected] m...
> DVD equipment manufacturers and publishers are fighting very hard in court to
> maintain this "feature" to continue to force consumers to accept prices they set
> for the region.
> http://news.com.com/2100-1040-946-
> 640.html
The article you cite is about video games, not DVD players.
Aug 10th 2002 | 7:50 am
#34
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Re: Europe VCR Formats
"Jon Bell" <[email protected]> a écrit dans le message de news:
[email protected]...
> Most brands of DVD players sold in the US can play only NTSC.
Are you sure? Without bypassing the zone code restriction, how can you tell?
[email protected]...
> Most brands of DVD players sold in the US can play only NTSC.
Are you sure? Without bypassing the zone code restriction, how can you tell?
Aug 10th 2002 | 7:52 am
#35
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Re: Europe VCR Formats
"Miguel Cruz" <[email protected]> a écrit dans le message de news:
[email protected]...
> Out of curiosity, are DVDs created with a particular analog video standard in
> mind ...
Yes. Frame rates in particular are based on the intended output (25 or 30 fps,
for PAL or NTSC respectively). The number of pixels vertically in the image
changes as well.
Since the recorded data is just a succession of digital images, and not a
digitization of an analog signal, in theory a player can transcode and output a
signal for anything, but it is complicated and I don't believe any player does this.
Additionally, DVDs in Zone 2 are more likely to be in anamorphic widescreeen than
DVDs in Zone 1, since many Americans are still watching pan and scan on
7:3 screens, whereas many Europeans (especially the DVD owners) have new
8:9 widescreen TV sets.
[email protected]...
> Out of curiosity, are DVDs created with a particular analog video standard in
> mind ...
Yes. Frame rates in particular are based on the intended output (25 or 30 fps,
for PAL or NTSC respectively). The number of pixels vertically in the image
changes as well.
Since the recorded data is just a succession of digital images, and not a
digitization of an analog signal, in theory a player can transcode and output a
signal for anything, but it is complicated and I don't believe any player does this.
Additionally, DVDs in Zone 2 are more likely to be in anamorphic widescreeen than
DVDs in Zone 1, since many Americans are still watching pan and scan on
7:3 screens, whereas many Europeans (especially the DVD owners) have new
8:9 widescreen TV sets.
Aug 10th 2002 | 7:55 am
#36
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Re: Europe VCR Formats
"Owain" <[email protected]> a écrit dans le message de news:
[email protected]...
> I believe that if the TV is not NTSC compatable, they only play back in
> monochrome, though.
You're confusing NTSC with PAL and SECAM. PAL played in SECAM (or the inverse) comes
out as monochrome. NTSC played in PAL (or the inverse) produces garbage.
> I can't comment on France, but as SECAM is a minority standard in Europe I'd be
> very surprised if French TVs were less multi-standard.
Virtually all French television sets understand both PAL and SECAM at the minimum.
[email protected]...
> I believe that if the TV is not NTSC compatable, they only play back in
> monochrome, though.
You're confusing NTSC with PAL and SECAM. PAL played in SECAM (or the inverse) comes
out as monochrome. NTSC played in PAL (or the inverse) produces garbage.
> I can't comment on France, but as SECAM is a minority standard in Europe I'd be
> very surprised if French TVs were less multi-standard.
Virtually all French television sets understand both PAL and SECAM at the minimum.
Aug 10th 2002 | 7:56 am
#37
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Re: Europe VCR Formats
"Miguel Cruz" <[email protected]> a écrit dans le message de news:
[email protected]...
> As DVD hardware becomes cheaper to manufacture, more and more little off-brand
> models are coming out from places that see region-free-ness as a quick way to
> compete against the majors.
But DVD manufacturers need a license for the DVD decoding hardware.
[email protected]...
> As DVD hardware becomes cheaper to manufacture, more and more little off-brand
> models are coming out from places that see region-free-ness as a quick way to
> compete against the majors.
But DVD manufacturers need a license for the DVD decoding hardware.
Aug 10th 2002 | 7:57 am
#38
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Re: Europe VCR Formats
"newstartnz" <[email protected]> a écrit dans le message de news:
[email protected]...
> DVD players - not yet very popular but becoming so.
Here in France the DVD shelves are considerably more extensive than the VHS shelves
in video stores, although it depends somewhat on the targeted market.
[email protected]...
> DVD players - not yet very popular but becoming so.
Here in France the DVD shelves are considerably more extensive than the VHS shelves
in video stores, although it depends somewhat on the targeted market.
Aug 10th 2002 | 7:58 am
#39
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Posts: n/a
Re: Europe VCR Formats
"Miguel Cruz" <[email protected]> a écrit dans le message de news:
[email protected]...
> I thought it was just France in Western Europe, and everyone else was on PAL.
France is the only developed country using SECAM. However, SECAM is used in
Third-World dumps such as some parts of Eastern Europe and elsewhere that used to be
pals with France.
[email protected]...
> I thought it was just France in Western Europe, and everyone else was on PAL.
France is the only developed country using SECAM. However, SECAM is used in
Third-World dumps such as some parts of Eastern Europe and elsewhere that used to be
pals with France.
Aug 10th 2002 | 8:15 am
#40
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Europe VCR Formats
[email protected] (Miguel Cruz) wrote in news:[email protected]:
> Out of curiosity, are DVDs created with a particular analog video standard in mind,
> or do they just contain NTSC/PAL/SECAM-agnostic data that is converted to the
> appropriate signal type at playback time?
A mix, sort of. MPEG streams have their proprietary colour encoding, the analogue
formats don't apply. But even digital images have pixel sizes and frame rates, which
can differ. DVD has a couple of options there.
Pixel counts: DVDs can contain a gazillion of different frame sizes and aspect
ratios, and all DVD players have intelligence to resize any format on a DVD to the
appropriate resolution of the user's analogue TV set, including standard and
widescreen sets. If the aspect ratios of the DVD and the screen don't match, the user
can choose if he/she wants the display letterboxed or distorted.
Colour encoding: The appropriate analogue colour encoding of the user's TV set is
generated during play.
Frame rates: This is where it becomes difficult. DVDs can have these frame rates:
24 fps, typically sourced from film material 30 fps, typically sourced from NTSC
video material 25 fps, typically sourced from PAL/SECAM video material
+ All DVD players can play 24 fps source material. NTSC players output that to
NTSC/30 through conversion, PAL/SECAM players output it to PAL/25.
+ NTSC-only players can of course play 30 fps DVDs, output is in NTSC/30 without
conversion. Most refuse to play 25 fps DVDs though.
+ PAL/SECAM-only players don't really exist, Europe has triple standard players
instead. They play all three formats. 30 fps source material is output to NTSC/30,
25 fps source to PAL/25, and 24 fps to what the user wishes. Some players can also
cross-output 30 fps to PAL/25 or 25 fps source to NTSC/30.
HTH
wolfgang
--
http://www.wschwanke.de/
Bbl BblE3mAETE N3 AMEPNKAHCKO7O CEKTOPA
> Out of curiosity, are DVDs created with a particular analog video standard in mind,
> or do they just contain NTSC/PAL/SECAM-agnostic data that is converted to the
> appropriate signal type at playback time?
A mix, sort of. MPEG streams have their proprietary colour encoding, the analogue
formats don't apply. But even digital images have pixel sizes and frame rates, which
can differ. DVD has a couple of options there.
Pixel counts: DVDs can contain a gazillion of different frame sizes and aspect
ratios, and all DVD players have intelligence to resize any format on a DVD to the
appropriate resolution of the user's analogue TV set, including standard and
widescreen sets. If the aspect ratios of the DVD and the screen don't match, the user
can choose if he/she wants the display letterboxed or distorted.
Colour encoding: The appropriate analogue colour encoding of the user's TV set is
generated during play.
Frame rates: This is where it becomes difficult. DVDs can have these frame rates:
24 fps, typically sourced from film material 30 fps, typically sourced from NTSC
video material 25 fps, typically sourced from PAL/SECAM video material
+ All DVD players can play 24 fps source material. NTSC players output that to
NTSC/30 through conversion, PAL/SECAM players output it to PAL/25.
+ NTSC-only players can of course play 30 fps DVDs, output is in NTSC/30 without
conversion. Most refuse to play 25 fps DVDs though.
+ PAL/SECAM-only players don't really exist, Europe has triple standard players
instead. They play all three formats. 30 fps source material is output to NTSC/30,
25 fps source to PAL/25, and 24 fps to what the user wishes. Some players can also
cross-output 30 fps to PAL/25 or 25 fps source to NTSC/30.
HTH
wolfgang
--
http://www.wschwanke.de/
Bbl BblE3mAETE N3 AMEPNKAHCKO7O CEKTOPA
Aug 10th 2002 | 8:20 am
#41
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Europe VCR Formats
"Mxsmanic" <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected] ws-
.com:
> Since the recorded data is just a succession of digital images, and not a
> digitization of an analog signal, in theory a player can transcode and output
> a signal for anything, but it is complicated and I don't believe any player
> does this.
Yes there are, I own one. Frame rate conversion isn't expensive to do these days,
it's even built into cheapo machines.
Regards
--
http://www.wschwanke.de/
Bbl BblE3mAETE N3 AMEPNKAHCKO7O CEKTOPA
.com:
> Since the recorded data is just a succession of digital images, and not a
> digitization of an analog signal, in theory a player can transcode and output
> a signal for anything, but it is complicated and I don't believe any player
> does this.
Yes there are, I own one. Frame rate conversion isn't expensive to do these days,
it's even built into cheapo machines.
Regards
--
http://www.wschwanke.de/
Bbl BblE3mAETE N3 AMEPNKAHCKO7O CEKTOPA
Aug 10th 2002 | 8:35 am
#42
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Europe VCR Formats
Wolfgang Schwanke <[email protected]> wrote:
>[email protected] (Miguel Cruz) wrote:
>> Out of curiosity, are DVDs created with a particular analog video standard in
>> mind, or do they just contain NTSC/PAL/SECAM-agnostic data that is converted to
>> the appropriate signal type at playback time?
> A mix, sort of. MPEG streams have their proprietary colour encoding, the analogue
> formats don't apply. But even digital images have pixel sizes and frame rates,
> which can differ. DVD has a couple of options there.
> [ lots more info snipped ]
Thanks for the comprehensive reply.
miguel
--
Hit The Road! Photos and tales from around the world:
http://travel.u.nu New mini photo-feature: Life in
DC: http://travel.u.nu/dc/
>[email protected] (Miguel Cruz) wrote:
>> Out of curiosity, are DVDs created with a particular analog video standard in
>> mind, or do they just contain NTSC/PAL/SECAM-agnostic data that is converted to
>> the appropriate signal type at playback time?
> A mix, sort of. MPEG streams have their proprietary colour encoding, the analogue
> formats don't apply. But even digital images have pixel sizes and frame rates,
> which can differ. DVD has a couple of options there.
> [ lots more info snipped ]
Thanks for the comprehensive reply.
miguel
--
Hit The Road! Photos and tales from around the world:
http://travel.u.nu New mini photo-feature: Life in
DC: http://travel.u.nu/dc/
Aug 10th 2002 | 11:00 am
#43
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Posts: n/a
Re: Europe VCR Formats
"Mxsmanic" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected] ew-
s.com...
> "J Quick" <[email protected]> a écrit dans le message de news:
> [email protected] m...
> > DVD equipment manufacturers and publishers are fighting very hard in court to
> > maintain this "feature" to continue to force consumers to accept prices they set
> > for the region.
> >
> > http://news.com.com/2100-1040-9-
> > 46640.html
> The article you cite is about video games, not DVD players.
Here's another article about the same ruling that explicity relates it to
DVDs.
http://news.zdnet.co.u-
k/story/0,,t280-s2103984,00.html
Sorry, I should've made the relevance a bit more clear. The article is about DVD
players because the PlayStation 2 not only plays games but DVDs as well. The article
is about Sony fight to prevent an Australian from making a chip to allow a
playstation to use software(games and DVDs) that were purchased in Europe and
elsewhere that otherwise wouldn't be permitted do to regional coding. The ruling
itself is filled with Australian DVD case law, if you're interested:
http://www.au-
stlii.edu.au/au/cases/cth/federal_ct/2002/906.html
s.com...
> "J Quick" <[email protected]> a écrit dans le message de news:
> [email protected] m...
> > DVD equipment manufacturers and publishers are fighting very hard in court to
> > maintain this "feature" to continue to force consumers to accept prices they set
> > for the region.
> >
> > http://news.com.com/2100-1040-9-
> > 46640.html
> The article you cite is about video games, not DVD players.
Here's another article about the same ruling that explicity relates it to
DVDs.
http://news.zdnet.co.u-
k/story/0,,t280-s2103984,00.html
Sorry, I should've made the relevance a bit more clear. The article is about DVD
players because the PlayStation 2 not only plays games but DVDs as well. The article
is about Sony fight to prevent an Australian from making a chip to allow a
playstation to use software(games and DVDs) that were purchased in Europe and
elsewhere that otherwise wouldn't be permitted do to regional coding. The ruling
itself is filled with Australian DVD case law, if you're interested:
http://www.au-
stlii.edu.au/au/cases/cth/federal_ct/2002/906.html
Aug 10th 2002 | 11:57 am
#44
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Europe VCR Formats
Mxsmanic <[email protected]> wrote:
> France is the only developed country using SECAM. However, SECAM is used in
> Third-World dumps such as some parts of Eastern Europe and elsewhere that used to
> be pals with France.
I have a multi-standard VCR in Boston. It's quite an old Memorex model. In addition
to NTSC, PAL and SECAM, it plays something called MESECAM. What's that? I've only
ever tried PAL and NTSC tapes in it, and this model apparently only plays back SECAM
and MESECAM in black and white.
David
--
David Horne- www.davidhorne.co.uk Composer
in Association- RLPO david (at) davidhorne (dot) co (dot) uk
> France is the only developed country using SECAM. However, SECAM is used in
> Third-World dumps such as some parts of Eastern Europe and elsewhere that used to
> be pals with France.
I have a multi-standard VCR in Boston. It's quite an old Memorex model. In addition
to NTSC, PAL and SECAM, it plays something called MESECAM. What's that? I've only
ever tried PAL and NTSC tapes in it, and this model apparently only plays back SECAM
and MESECAM in black and white.
David
--
David Horne- www.davidhorne.co.uk Composer
in Association- RLPO david (at) davidhorne (dot) co (dot) uk
Aug 10th 2002 | 1:32 pm
#45
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Europe VCR Formats
"David Horne" <[email protected]> a écrit dans le message de news:
1fgq7wc.1ffvsa01ezzn1iN%[email protected]...
> I have a multi-standard VCR in Boston. It's quite an old Memorex model. In
> addition to NTSC, PAL and SECAM, it plays something called MESECAM.
There are some odd flavors of SECAM; I don't remember what they were/are. Rather like
N-PAL and weird stuff like that. My Panasonic W1 will play any VHS tape in the
world, but it handles at least a dozen or so VHS recording standards, if I remember
correctly.
> I've only ever tried PAL and NTSC tapes in it, and this model apparently only plays
> back SECAM and MESECAM in black and white.
SECAM differs from PAL essentially only in the way the chrominance signal is encoded.
So a VCR that understands only PAL fully would play SECAM in black and white. (There
are additional differences for broadcast SECAM and PAL signals, but I don't know if
they apply to the VHS versions.)
1fgq7wc.1ffvsa01ezzn1iN%[email protected]...
> I have a multi-standard VCR in Boston. It's quite an old Memorex model. In
> addition to NTSC, PAL and SECAM, it plays something called MESECAM.
There are some odd flavors of SECAM; I don't remember what they were/are. Rather like
N-PAL and weird stuff like that. My Panasonic W1 will play any VHS tape in the
world, but it handles at least a dozen or so VHS recording standards, if I remember
correctly.
> I've only ever tried PAL and NTSC tapes in it, and this model apparently only plays
> back SECAM and MESECAM in black and white.
SECAM differs from PAL essentially only in the way the chrominance signal is encoded.
So a VCR that understands only PAL fully would play SECAM in black and white. (There
are additional differences for broadcast SECAM and PAL signals, but I don't know if
they apply to the VHS versions.)
