Delta Pilots End Era of Luxurious Pay
Nov 15th 2004, 12:50 pm
#121
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Get rid of the South: was: Delta Pilots End Era of Luxurious Pay
"Frank F. Matthews" <[email protected]> writes:
> It's interesting to see what would happen without New Orleans,
> Houston, and Jacksonville. I also wonder what would happen to all the
> goods at the LA port if they had to be shipped by central railways.
> Closing any major port will have vast repercussions. It was Bobs idea
> to do without the whole south.
It was Jay's idea to quit subsidizing failing airlines, and it was my
idea to quit subsidizing failing regions like the South (and MidWest).
Let'em turn into the 3rd world countries they really are. We'll still
have the physical facilities, we just won't have to support them.
Best of all, those 3rd-worlders can't vote the productive people on
the Coasts a president we don't want!
Bob "Always Provocative" Fry
> It's interesting to see what would happen without New Orleans,
> Houston, and Jacksonville. I also wonder what would happen to all the
> goods at the LA port if they had to be shipped by central railways.
> Closing any major port will have vast repercussions. It was Bobs idea
> to do without the whole south.
It was Jay's idea to quit subsidizing failing airlines, and it was my
idea to quit subsidizing failing regions like the South (and MidWest).
Let'em turn into the 3rd world countries they really are. We'll still
have the physical facilities, we just won't have to support them.
Best of all, those 3rd-worlders can't vote the productive people on
the Coasts a president we don't want!
Bob "Always Provocative" Fry
Nov 15th 2004, 2:34 pm
#122
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Delta Pilots End Era of Luxurious Pay
"Mike Rapoport" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected] hlink.net>...
> "John Mazor" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> How do you "dump" airplanes? If you sell them then that capacity is still
> in the market. If you simply ground or scrap them you don't same any money,
> you still have to pay for them.
Right. The real solution is to let free market (not unions) work the
way they are suppose to work. In free market the companies will
realize that there is not enough profit for all these companies to
survive. So the market must contract and companies must merge or go
out of business. This is a normal and healthy course of business. If
companies get stuck with outdated salery liabilities they will not be
attractive for merger and will go out of business. This is free
market's way of cleaning up these bad contracts.
The rest of the free world see their saleries go up and down as demand
for their labor changes (including CEO saleries). Pilots should be no
different.
-Robert
FAA Certified Flight Instructor
FAA Certified Commercial Pilot
> "John Mazor" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> How do you "dump" airplanes? If you sell them then that capacity is still
> in the market. If you simply ground or scrap them you don't same any money,
> you still have to pay for them.
Right. The real solution is to let free market (not unions) work the
way they are suppose to work. In free market the companies will
realize that there is not enough profit for all these companies to
survive. So the market must contract and companies must merge or go
out of business. This is a normal and healthy course of business. If
companies get stuck with outdated salery liabilities they will not be
attractive for merger and will go out of business. This is free
market's way of cleaning up these bad contracts.
The rest of the free world see their saleries go up and down as demand
for their labor changes (including CEO saleries). Pilots should be no
different.
-Robert
FAA Certified Flight Instructor
FAA Certified Commercial Pilot
Nov 15th 2004, 3:40 pm
#123
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Delta Pilots End Era of Luxurious Pay
Cisco troll/netkook/pedophile Michael Voight "anon <[email protected]>"
trolled:
-
>Nik wrote:
>> "anon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected] m...
>>
>>>Morgans wrote:
>>>>"AbsolutelyCertain" <[email protected]> wrote
>>>>>Bad mojo. Government + business = no good.
>>>>Yep. The Government saved #3, so that a foreign company could come and
>>>>buy
>>>>it. We still have people working, but BTW, where are the profits going,
>>>>now?
>>>Let me guess... the stockholders?
>>>Americans can buy the stock.....
>>
>>
>> As their saving rate now is the lowest since WWII they have no cash left to
>> buy stocks for.
>They have just as much cash available to buy DCX as they have to buy an
>"American" company
So now you're an international banker and financial advisor too???
Wonder how many will want to take financial advice from someone with
credentials like these:
About rogue Cisco employee and netkook/troll/usenet flooder
Michael Voight, alias "anonymous", "nothilaryduff", "Really Me",
"mrtravel", "mrtravelkay", etc. etc. etc.
Currently posting as anon <[email protected]> .
Recently posting as anonymous <[email protected]>, nothilaryduff
<[email protected]>, Kathy Stoltz <[email protected]>,
Really Me <[email protected]>. See below for a larger list of all
his trolling aliases.
His work e-mail address is <[email protected]>.
Michael D. Voight
111 Bean Creek Rd, No. 118
Scotts Valley, CA 95066-4148
(831) 438-2485
[email protected] .
He is pedophile Gary Burnore's partner in crime. Gary Burnore is a
convicted sex offender/child molester and the biggest kook in the
history of the net.
Voight likes to spend his time in the teenage personals newsgroups
trying to pick up underage girls.
The idiot works for Cisco in their Scotts Valley, California
Technical Assistance Center (TAC) and apparently they don't
keep him busy enough so he has to troll usenet newsgroups all day long
from work.
***WARNING: THIS IDIOT HAS BEEN CAUGHT FORGING PEOPLE'S IDENTITIES ON
USENET AND CANCELLING THEIR POSTS.***
If you are one of his victims, or are simply fed up with his
trolling/newsgroup flooding, forward his posts to [email protected] .
He works in technical support, so forward them to [email protected] too.
See further below for more Cisco contact information.
He often posts through sbcglobal and prodigy, so forward them to
[email protected] and [email protected] as well.
His main hangouts (besides the teenage personals newsgroups) are
rec.travel.air and alt.visa.us.marriage-based, a sleazy newsgroup
where foreigners wanting to immigrate to the US hook up with losers
like Voight who are willing to marry them for money so they can get
their green card. Voight is a pro at this, handing out daily advice
on how to be a sleazoid like him and sell green cards.
When he isn't giving out advice on how to commit federal crimes on
alt.visa.us.marriage-based he is usually on rec.travel.air flooding
that newsgroup with trolls and harassing posters and picking retarded
fights with the regular posters there.
He also tends to post a lot in the personals and penpals newsgroups as
well as the support groups for fat people, lonely folks, and for
depression. Obviously after his Russian Internet brides get their
green cards they flee, leaving him lonely and desperate for company.
Maybe that's why he keeps a P.O. Box at the post office, so he can get
his personals mail there:
Voight, Michael
P.O. Box 67016,
Scotts Valley, CA 95067
(408) 461-8707
The idiot is a two-time high school dropout and had to join the
Marines because even the Army rejected him!
He's got a daughter in Orange County that one of his ex-wives had the
intelligence to take away from him. Lord only knows what could have
happened to her if she had continued to live with the kook. The other
kids he has belong to his previous Russian sleazy brides, and since
they come and go so do the kids. It wouldn't hurt to let Cisco know
what kind of deviant sexual pervert they have working for them.
Many people have wondered how Cisco ever hired such a psycho. It
cheapens their image and credibility in the corporate world after all.
Well, they didn't hire him directly, he came as baggage when they
acquired the company he used to work for, TGV Software. His e-mail
address there used to be <[email protected]>.
All intelligent members of the usenet community have killfiled him, so
he takes great pains to get past their killfiles by rubbing his only
two cerebral neurons together and coming up with gems like:
mrtrav <[email protected]>
mrtrav3 <[email protected]>
mrraveltay <[email protected]>
mrtravelkay <[email protected]>, and
mtravelkay <[email protected]> and <""a.a\"@a,a,a>.
Some of his other trolling aliases are:
Network Guy <[email protected]>
starrystarrynight <[email protected]>
sleepydoc <[email protected]>
jlhunt <[email protected]>
Lost 5 of 8 <[email protected]>
mrt <[email protected]>
news.sf.sbcglobal.net <[email protected]>
not-nomen <[email protected]>
UCLAisthebest <[email protected]>
David Tanner <[email protected]>
Jeff Davies <[email protected]>
BobTheBuilder <[email protected]>
Bill Clarkj <[email protected]>
nonomen ([email protected])
Really Me <[email protected]>.
Lately he's had some gender confusion and has been posting as women,
such as:
JerseyGirl <[email protected]>
Kathy Stoltz <[email protected]>
nothilaryduff <[email protected]>
Perhaps he's thinking of getting a sex change (or worse, raping some
teenage girls).
His latest aliases are anon <[email protected]>and anonymous
<[email protected]>.
It would be a good idea to call Cisco at 1-800-553-2447 and ask to
speak with a supervisor and explain that you are EXTREMELY unhappy
that this idiot spends his whole day at work playing on the internet
on company time. THEY WILL NOT LIKE THAT.
Then write to corporate headquarters explaining what this idiot is
doing and telling them HOW BAD IT IS FOR THEIR COMPANY IMAGE. They
will LOVE that you brought this to their attention:
Cisco Systems, Inc.
170 West Tasman Dr.
San Jose, CA 95134
USA
Then also call them. You should always follow up email or letters
with phone calls. Always ask for supervisors or managers. Try to get
as far up as possible.
(408)526-4000
(800)553-NETS or
(800)553-6387
Contact Investor Relations and tell them you are interested in
investing in their company but won't do so until they get rid of this
asshole who is wasting company resources:
Cisco Systems, Inc.
Investor Relations Department
170 West Tasman Drive
San Jose, CA 95134-1706
Phone: (408) 526-8890
Fax: (408) 526-4545
Email: [email protected]
Might as well contact customer service too, they LOVE to hear about
this type of stuff:
USA 1 800 553 6387
[email protected]
[email protected]
Then finally, send letters with copies of his nasty posts addressed
personally to each one of the OFFICERS of the company using the
headquarters address. Believe me, they READ your complaints and are
VERY INTERESTED in them, especially if it's about one of their
employees. They will take a PERSONAL interest in rooting this ASSHOLE
out of their company:
John Morgridge, Chairman
Phone: (408) 526-8229
Fax: (408) 526-4100
[email protected]
John Chambers, President, CEO
Phone: (408) 526-8222
Fax: (408) 526-4100
[email protected]
Larry Carter, CFO, Sr. VP-Fin. and Admin., Sec., Director
Phone: (408) 526-8211
Fax: (408) 526-4100
Email: [email protected]
Richard Justice, Sr. VP, Worldwide Field Operations
Phone: (408) 527-7371
Fax: (408) 526-4100
Email: [email protected]
Brad Boston,Senior Vice President and Chief Information Officer
Phone: (408) 526-7008
Fax: (408) 526-8220
Email: [email protected]
Susan Lori Bostrom
Senior Vice President, Internet Business Solutions Group
Phone: (408) 527-5648
Fax: (408) 526-4100
Email: [email protected]
Howard S. Charney
Senior Vice President, Office of the President
Phone: (408) 526-8300
Fax: (408) 526-4100
Email: [email protected]
Kate DCamp
Senior Vice President, Human Resources
Phone: (408) 527-9530
Fax: (408) 526-4100
Email: [email protected]
Gail Morales
Manager, Human Resources, Employment
Phone: (408) 527-6654
Fax: (408) 526-4100
Email: [email protected]
Peggy Lynch
Employee Benefits
Phone: (408) 526-8859
Fax: (408) 527-6080
Email: [email protected]
Mario Mazzola
Senior Vice President and Chief Development Officer
Phone: (408) 526-5535
Fax: (408) 526-4100
Email: [email protected]
Betsy Rafael
Vice President and Corporate Controller
Phone: (408) 525-0164
Fax: (408) 526-4100
Email: [email protected]
Claudia Ceniceros
Manager, Public Relations
Phone: (408) 525-4700
Fax: (408) 526-4100
Email: [email protected]
Write, call, and fax:
Cisco Systems, Inc.
170 West Tasman Drive
San Jose, California 95134-1706, USA
Phone: (408) 526-4000
Fax: (408) 526-4100
(800)553-NETS = (800)553-6387
Have fun!
trolled:
-
>Nik wrote:
>> "anon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected] m...
>>
>>>Morgans wrote:
>>>>"AbsolutelyCertain" <[email protected]> wrote
>>>>>Bad mojo. Government + business = no good.
>>>>Yep. The Government saved #3, so that a foreign company could come and
>>>>buy
>>>>it. We still have people working, but BTW, where are the profits going,
>>>>now?
>>>Let me guess... the stockholders?
>>>Americans can buy the stock.....
>>
>>
>> As their saving rate now is the lowest since WWII they have no cash left to
>> buy stocks for.
>They have just as much cash available to buy DCX as they have to buy an
>"American" company
So now you're an international banker and financial advisor too???
Wonder how many will want to take financial advice from someone with
credentials like these:
About rogue Cisco employee and netkook/troll/usenet flooder
Michael Voight, alias "anonymous", "nothilaryduff", "Really Me",
"mrtravel", "mrtravelkay", etc. etc. etc.
Currently posting as anon <[email protected]> .
Recently posting as anonymous <[email protected]>, nothilaryduff
<[email protected]>, Kathy Stoltz <[email protected]>,
Really Me <[email protected]>. See below for a larger list of all
his trolling aliases.
His work e-mail address is <[email protected]>.
Michael D. Voight
111 Bean Creek Rd, No. 118
Scotts Valley, CA 95066-4148
(831) 438-2485
[email protected] .
He is pedophile Gary Burnore's partner in crime. Gary Burnore is a
convicted sex offender/child molester and the biggest kook in the
history of the net.
Voight likes to spend his time in the teenage personals newsgroups
trying to pick up underage girls.
The idiot works for Cisco in their Scotts Valley, California
Technical Assistance Center (TAC) and apparently they don't
keep him busy enough so he has to troll usenet newsgroups all day long
from work.
***WARNING: THIS IDIOT HAS BEEN CAUGHT FORGING PEOPLE'S IDENTITIES ON
USENET AND CANCELLING THEIR POSTS.***
If you are one of his victims, or are simply fed up with his
trolling/newsgroup flooding, forward his posts to [email protected] .
He works in technical support, so forward them to [email protected] too.
See further below for more Cisco contact information.
He often posts through sbcglobal and prodigy, so forward them to
[email protected] and [email protected] as well.
His main hangouts (besides the teenage personals newsgroups) are
rec.travel.air and alt.visa.us.marriage-based, a sleazy newsgroup
where foreigners wanting to immigrate to the US hook up with losers
like Voight who are willing to marry them for money so they can get
their green card. Voight is a pro at this, handing out daily advice
on how to be a sleazoid like him and sell green cards.
When he isn't giving out advice on how to commit federal crimes on
alt.visa.us.marriage-based he is usually on rec.travel.air flooding
that newsgroup with trolls and harassing posters and picking retarded
fights with the regular posters there.
He also tends to post a lot in the personals and penpals newsgroups as
well as the support groups for fat people, lonely folks, and for
depression. Obviously after his Russian Internet brides get their
green cards they flee, leaving him lonely and desperate for company.
Maybe that's why he keeps a P.O. Box at the post office, so he can get
his personals mail there:
Voight, Michael
P.O. Box 67016,
Scotts Valley, CA 95067
(408) 461-8707
The idiot is a two-time high school dropout and had to join the
Marines because even the Army rejected him!
He's got a daughter in Orange County that one of his ex-wives had the
intelligence to take away from him. Lord only knows what could have
happened to her if she had continued to live with the kook. The other
kids he has belong to his previous Russian sleazy brides, and since
they come and go so do the kids. It wouldn't hurt to let Cisco know
what kind of deviant sexual pervert they have working for them.
Many people have wondered how Cisco ever hired such a psycho. It
cheapens their image and credibility in the corporate world after all.
Well, they didn't hire him directly, he came as baggage when they
acquired the company he used to work for, TGV Software. His e-mail
address there used to be <[email protected]>.
All intelligent members of the usenet community have killfiled him, so
he takes great pains to get past their killfiles by rubbing his only
two cerebral neurons together and coming up with gems like:
mrtrav <[email protected]>
mrtrav3 <[email protected]>
mrraveltay <[email protected]>
mrtravelkay <[email protected]>, and
mtravelkay <[email protected]> and <""a.a\"@a,a,a>.
Some of his other trolling aliases are:
Network Guy <[email protected]>
starrystarrynight <[email protected]>
sleepydoc <[email protected]>
jlhunt <[email protected]>
Lost 5 of 8 <[email protected]>
mrt <[email protected]>
news.sf.sbcglobal.net <[email protected]>
not-nomen <[email protected]>
UCLAisthebest <[email protected]>
David Tanner <[email protected]>
Jeff Davies <[email protected]>
BobTheBuilder <[email protected]>
Bill Clarkj <[email protected]>
nonomen ([email protected])
Really Me <[email protected]>.
Lately he's had some gender confusion and has been posting as women,
such as:
JerseyGirl <[email protected]>
Kathy Stoltz <[email protected]>
nothilaryduff <[email protected]>
Perhaps he's thinking of getting a sex change (or worse, raping some
teenage girls).
His latest aliases are anon <[email protected]>and anonymous
<[email protected]>.
It would be a good idea to call Cisco at 1-800-553-2447 and ask to
speak with a supervisor and explain that you are EXTREMELY unhappy
that this idiot spends his whole day at work playing on the internet
on company time. THEY WILL NOT LIKE THAT.
Then write to corporate headquarters explaining what this idiot is
doing and telling them HOW BAD IT IS FOR THEIR COMPANY IMAGE. They
will LOVE that you brought this to their attention:
Cisco Systems, Inc.
170 West Tasman Dr.
San Jose, CA 95134
USA
Then also call them. You should always follow up email or letters
with phone calls. Always ask for supervisors or managers. Try to get
as far up as possible.
(408)526-4000
(800)553-NETS or
(800)553-6387
Contact Investor Relations and tell them you are interested in
investing in their company but won't do so until they get rid of this
asshole who is wasting company resources:
Cisco Systems, Inc.
Investor Relations Department
170 West Tasman Drive
San Jose, CA 95134-1706
Phone: (408) 526-8890
Fax: (408) 526-4545
Email: [email protected]
Might as well contact customer service too, they LOVE to hear about
this type of stuff:
USA 1 800 553 6387
[email protected]
[email protected]
Then finally, send letters with copies of his nasty posts addressed
personally to each one of the OFFICERS of the company using the
headquarters address. Believe me, they READ your complaints and are
VERY INTERESTED in them, especially if it's about one of their
employees. They will take a PERSONAL interest in rooting this ASSHOLE
out of their company:
John Morgridge, Chairman
Phone: (408) 526-8229
Fax: (408) 526-4100
[email protected]
John Chambers, President, CEO
Phone: (408) 526-8222
Fax: (408) 526-4100
[email protected]
Larry Carter, CFO, Sr. VP-Fin. and Admin., Sec., Director
Phone: (408) 526-8211
Fax: (408) 526-4100
Email: [email protected]
Richard Justice, Sr. VP, Worldwide Field Operations
Phone: (408) 527-7371
Fax: (408) 526-4100
Email: [email protected]
Brad Boston,Senior Vice President and Chief Information Officer
Phone: (408) 526-7008
Fax: (408) 526-8220
Email: [email protected]
Susan Lori Bostrom
Senior Vice President, Internet Business Solutions Group
Phone: (408) 527-5648
Fax: (408) 526-4100
Email: [email protected]
Howard S. Charney
Senior Vice President, Office of the President
Phone: (408) 526-8300
Fax: (408) 526-4100
Email: [email protected]
Kate DCamp
Senior Vice President, Human Resources
Phone: (408) 527-9530
Fax: (408) 526-4100
Email: [email protected]
Gail Morales
Manager, Human Resources, Employment
Phone: (408) 527-6654
Fax: (408) 526-4100
Email: [email protected]
Peggy Lynch
Employee Benefits
Phone: (408) 526-8859
Fax: (408) 527-6080
Email: [email protected]
Mario Mazzola
Senior Vice President and Chief Development Officer
Phone: (408) 526-5535
Fax: (408) 526-4100
Email: [email protected]
Betsy Rafael
Vice President and Corporate Controller
Phone: (408) 525-0164
Fax: (408) 526-4100
Email: [email protected]
Claudia Ceniceros
Manager, Public Relations
Phone: (408) 525-4700
Fax: (408) 526-4100
Email: [email protected]
Write, call, and fax:
Cisco Systems, Inc.
170 West Tasman Drive
San Jose, California 95134-1706, USA
Phone: (408) 526-4000
Fax: (408) 526-4100
(800)553-NETS = (800)553-6387
Have fun!
Nov 16th 2004, 2:42 am
#124
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Delta Pilots End Era of Luxurious Pay
JL Grasso <[email protected]> drivveled on and
onnews:[email protected]:
> On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 13:39:07 -0700, "AbsolutelyCertain"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>"Bertie the Bunyip" <XZXZ@XZXZ.,XZXZX> wrote in message
>>news:[email protected] 8.74.13...
>>> "AbsolutelyCertain" <[email protected]> drivveled on and
>>> onnews:[email protected]:
>>> >
>>> > "G.R. Patterson III" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> > news:[email protected]...
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> AbsolutelyCertain wrote:
>>> >> >
>>> >> > The terms of the deal may be different, but government rescue
>>> >> > of corporations is still government rescue of corporations. It
>>> >> > is the same situation: Unwise interference with the
>>> >> > marketplace. The fine print doesn't matter.
>>> >>
>>> >> That's what you regard as "fine print"? Wow!
>>> >
>>> > That's what you regard as just a "loan"? Wow!
>>> >
>>> That's what you regard as a "comeback"? Wow!
>>It was the best I could do. The straight line just didn't have any
>>pizzazz to it.
>>I can only do so much with this kind of material.
>
> That's what you regard as a "whoooosh"? Wow!
You want to hear a whoosh? Wait until you hear th eone that comes out of my
ass when your dun fukkin it.
onnews:[email protected]:
> On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 13:39:07 -0700, "AbsolutelyCertain"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>"Bertie the Bunyip" <XZXZ@XZXZ.,XZXZX> wrote in message
>>news:[email protected] 8.74.13...
>>> "AbsolutelyCertain" <[email protected]> drivveled on and
>>> onnews:[email protected]:
>>> >
>>> > "G.R. Patterson III" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> > news:[email protected]...
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> AbsolutelyCertain wrote:
>>> >> >
>>> >> > The terms of the deal may be different, but government rescue
>>> >> > of corporations is still government rescue of corporations. It
>>> >> > is the same situation: Unwise interference with the
>>> >> > marketplace. The fine print doesn't matter.
>>> >>
>>> >> That's what you regard as "fine print"? Wow!
>>> >
>>> > That's what you regard as just a "loan"? Wow!
>>> >
>>> That's what you regard as a "comeback"? Wow!
>>It was the best I could do. The straight line just didn't have any
>>pizzazz to it.
>>I can only do so much with this kind of material.
>
> That's what you regard as a "whoooosh"? Wow!
You want to hear a whoosh? Wait until you hear th eone that comes out of my
ass when your dun fukkin it.
Nov 16th 2004, 4:37 am
#125
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Delta Pilots End Era of Luxurious Pay
[email protected] (Robert M. Gary) wrote
> > How do you "dump" airplanes? If you sell them then that capacity is still
> > in the market. If you simply ground or scrap them you don't same any money,
> > you still have to pay for them.
> Right. The real solution is to let free market (not unions) work the
> way they are suppose to work.
You make it sound as though the process of collective bargaining is
incompatible with free markets. It isn't. United (and soon Delta)
pilots unions are swallowing huge cuts in pay and benefits because
they realize half a loaf is better than none.
Jim Rosinski
> > How do you "dump" airplanes? If you sell them then that capacity is still
> > in the market. If you simply ground or scrap them you don't same any money,
> > you still have to pay for them.
> Right. The real solution is to let free market (not unions) work the
> way they are suppose to work.
You make it sound as though the process of collective bargaining is
incompatible with free markets. It isn't. United (and soon Delta)
pilots unions are swallowing huge cuts in pay and benefits because
they realize half a loaf is better than none.
Jim Rosinski
Nov 16th 2004, 10:50 am
#126
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Delta Pilots End Era of Luxurious Pay
Cisco troll/netkook/pedophile Michael Voight "anon <[email protected]>"
trolled:
+
>Nik wrote:
>> "anon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected] m...
>>
>>>Morgans wrote:
>>>>"AbsolutelyCertain" <[email protected]> wrote
>>>>>Bad mojo. Government + business = no good.
>>>>Yep. The Government saved #3, so that a foreign company could come and
>>>>buy
>>>>it. We still have people working, but BTW, where are the profits going,
>>>>now?
>>>Let me guess... the stockholders?
>>>Americans can buy the stock.....
>>
>>
>> As their saving rate now is the lowest since WWII they have no cash left to
>> buy stocks for.
>They have just as much cash available to buy DCX as they have to buy an
>"American" company
So now you're an international banker and financial advisor too???
Wonder how many will want to take financial advice from someone with
credentials like these:
About rogue Cisco employee and netkook/troll/usenet flooder
Michael Voight, alias "anonymous", "nothilaryduff", "Really Me",
"mrtravel", "mrtravelkay", etc. etc. etc.
Currently posting as anon <[email protected]> .
Recently posting as anonymous <[email protected]>, nothilaryduff
<[email protected]>, Kathy Stoltz <[email protected]>,
Really Me <[email protected]>. See below for a larger list of all
his trolling aliases.
His work e-mail address is <[email protected]>.
Michael D. Voight
111 Bean Creek Rd, No. 118
Scotts Valley, CA 95066-4148
(831) 438-2485
[email protected] .
He is pedophile Gary Burnore's partner in crime. Gary Burnore is a
convicted sex offender/child molester and the biggest kook in the
history of the net.
Voight likes to spend his time in the teenage personals newsgroups
trying to pick up underage girls.
The idiot works for Cisco in their Scotts Valley, California
Technical Assistance Center (TAC) and apparently they don't
keep him busy enough so he has to troll usenet newsgroups all day long
from work.
***WARNING: THIS IDIOT HAS BEEN CAUGHT FORGING PEOPLE'S IDENTITIES ON
USENET AND CANCELLING THEIR POSTS.***
If you are one of his victims, or are simply fed up with his
trolling/newsgroup flooding, forward his posts to [email protected] .
He works in technical support, so forward them to [email protected] too.
See further below for more Cisco contact information.
He often posts through sbcglobal and prodigy, so forward them to
[email protected] and [email protected] as well.
His main hangouts (besides the teenage personals newsgroups) are
rec.travel.air and alt.visa.us.marriage-based, a sleazy newsgroup
where foreigners wanting to immigrate to the US hook up with losers
like Voight who are willing to marry them for money so they can get
their green card. Voight is a pro at this, handing out daily advice
on how to be a sleazoid like him and sell green cards.
When he isn't giving out advice on how to commit federal crimes on
alt.visa.us.marriage-based he is usually on rec.travel.air flooding
that newsgroup with trolls and harassing posters and picking retarded
fights with the regular posters there.
He also tends to post a lot in the personals and penpals newsgroups as
well as the support groups for fat people, lonely folks, and for
depression. Obviously after his Russian Internet brides get their
green cards they flee, leaving him lonely and desperate for company.
Maybe that's why he keeps a P.O. Box at the post office, so he can get
his personals mail there:
Voight, Michael
P.O. Box 67016,
Scotts Valley, CA 95067
(408) 461-8707
The idiot is a two-time high school dropout and had to join the
Marines because even the Army rejected him!
He's got a daughter in Orange County that one of his ex-wives had the
intelligence to take away from him. Lord only knows what could have
happened to her if she had continued to live with the kook. The other
kids he has belong to his previous Russian sleazy brides, and since
they come and go so do the kids. It wouldn't hurt to let Cisco know
what kind of deviant sexual pervert they have working for them.
Many people have wondered how Cisco ever hired such a psycho. It
cheapens their image and credibility in the corporate world after all.
Well, they didn't hire him directly, he came as baggage when they
acquired the company he used to work for, TGV Software. His e-mail
address there used to be <[email protected]>.
All intelligent members of the usenet community have killfiled him, so
he takes great pains to get past their killfiles by rubbing his only
two cerebral neurons together and coming up with gems like:
mrtrav <[email protected]>
mrtrav3 <[email protected]>
mrraveltay <[email protected]>
mrtravelkay <[email protected]>, and
mtravelkay <[email protected]> and <""a.a\"@a,a,a>.
Some of his other trolling aliases are:
Network Guy <[email protected]>
starrystarrynight <[email protected]>
sleepydoc <[email protected]>
jlhunt <[email protected]>
Lost 5 of 8 <[email protected]>
mrt <[email protected]>
news.sf.sbcglobal.net <[email protected]>
not-nomen <[email protected]>
UCLAisthebest <[email protected]>
David Tanner <[email protected]>
Jeff Davies <[email protected]>
BobTheBuilder <[email protected]>
Bill Clarkj <[email protected]>
nonomen ([email protected])
Really Me <[email protected]>.
Lately he's had some gender confusion and has been posting as women,
such as:
JerseyGirl <[email protected]>
Kathy Stoltz <[email protected]>
nothilaryduff <[email protected]>
Perhaps he's thinking of getting a sex change (or worse, raping some
teenage girls).
His latest aliases are anon <[email protected]>and anonymous
<[email protected]>.
It would be a good idea to call Cisco at 1-800-553-2447 and ask to
speak with a supervisor and explain that you are EXTREMELY unhappy
that this idiot spends his whole day at work playing on the internet
on company time. THEY WILL NOT LIKE THAT.
Then write to corporate headquarters explaining what this idiot is
doing and telling them HOW BAD IT IS FOR THEIR COMPANY IMAGE. They
will LOVE that you brought this to their attention:
Cisco Systems, Inc.
170 West Tasman Dr.
San Jose, CA 95134
USA
Then also call them. You should always follow up email or letters
with phone calls. Always ask for supervisors or managers. Try to get
as far up as possible.
(408)526-4000
(800)553-NETS or
(800)553-6387
Contact Investor Relations and tell them you are interested in
investing in their company but won't do so until they get rid of this
asshole who is wasting company resources:
Cisco Systems, Inc.
Investor Relations Department
170 West Tasman Drive
San Jose, CA 95134-1706
Phone: (408) 526-8890
Fax: (408) 526-4545
Email: [email protected]
Might as well contact customer service too, they LOVE to hear about
this type of stuff:
USA 1 800 553 6387
[email protected]
[email protected]
Then finally, send letters with copies of his nasty posts addressed
personally to each one of the OFFICERS of the company using the
headquarters address. Believe me, they READ your complaints and are
VERY INTERESTED in them, especially if it's about one of their
employees. They will take a PERSONAL interest in rooting this ASSHOLE
out of their company:
John Morgridge, Chairman
Phone: (408) 526-8229
Fax: (408) 526-4100
[email protected]
John Chambers, President, CEO
Phone: (408) 526-8222
Fax: (408) 526-4100
[email protected]
Larry Carter, CFO, Sr. VP-Fin. and Admin., Sec., Director
Phone: (408) 526-8211
Fax: (408) 526-4100
Email: [email protected]
Richard Justice, Sr. VP, Worldwide Field Operations
Phone: (408) 527-7371
Fax: (408) 526-4100
Email: [email protected]
Brad Boston,Senior Vice President and Chief Information Officer
Phone: (408) 526-7008
Fax: (408) 526-8220
Email: [email protected]
Susan Lori Bostrom
Senior Vice President, Internet Business Solutions Group
Phone: (408) 527-5648
Fax: (408) 526-4100
Email: [email protected]
Howard S. Charney
Senior Vice President, Office of the President
Phone: (408) 526-8300
Fax: (408) 526-4100
Email: [email protected]
Kate DCamp
Senior Vice President, Human Resources
Phone: (408) 527-9530
Fax: (408) 526-4100
Email: [email protected]
Gail Morales
Manager, Human Resources, Employment
Phone: (408) 527-6654
Fax: (408) 526-4100
Email: [email protected]
Peggy Lynch
Employee Benefits
Phone: (408) 526-8859
Fax: (408) 527-6080
Email: [email protected]
Mario Mazzola
Senior Vice President and Chief Development Officer
Phone: (408) 526-5535
Fax: (408) 526-4100
Email: [email protected]
Betsy Rafael
Vice President and Corporate Controller
Phone: (408) 525-0164
Fax: (408) 526-4100
Email: [email protected]
Claudia Ceniceros
Manager, Public Relations
Phone: (408) 525-4700
Fax: (408) 526-4100
Email: [email protected]
Write, call, and fax:
Cisco Systems, Inc.
170 West Tasman Drive
San Jose, California 95134-1706, USA
Phone: (408) 526-4000
Fax: (408) 526-4100
(800)553-NETS = (800)553-6387
Have fun!
trolled:
+
>Nik wrote:
>> "anon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected] m...
>>
>>>Morgans wrote:
>>>>"AbsolutelyCertain" <[email protected]> wrote
>>>>>Bad mojo. Government + business = no good.
>>>>Yep. The Government saved #3, so that a foreign company could come and
>>>>buy
>>>>it. We still have people working, but BTW, where are the profits going,
>>>>now?
>>>Let me guess... the stockholders?
>>>Americans can buy the stock.....
>>
>>
>> As their saving rate now is the lowest since WWII they have no cash left to
>> buy stocks for.
>They have just as much cash available to buy DCX as they have to buy an
>"American" company
So now you're an international banker and financial advisor too???
Wonder how many will want to take financial advice from someone with
credentials like these:
About rogue Cisco employee and netkook/troll/usenet flooder
Michael Voight, alias "anonymous", "nothilaryduff", "Really Me",
"mrtravel", "mrtravelkay", etc. etc. etc.
Currently posting as anon <[email protected]> .
Recently posting as anonymous <[email protected]>, nothilaryduff
<[email protected]>, Kathy Stoltz <[email protected]>,
Really Me <[email protected]>. See below for a larger list of all
his trolling aliases.
His work e-mail address is <[email protected]>.
Michael D. Voight
111 Bean Creek Rd, No. 118
Scotts Valley, CA 95066-4148
(831) 438-2485
[email protected] .
He is pedophile Gary Burnore's partner in crime. Gary Burnore is a
convicted sex offender/child molester and the biggest kook in the
history of the net.
Voight likes to spend his time in the teenage personals newsgroups
trying to pick up underage girls.
The idiot works for Cisco in their Scotts Valley, California
Technical Assistance Center (TAC) and apparently they don't
keep him busy enough so he has to troll usenet newsgroups all day long
from work.
***WARNING: THIS IDIOT HAS BEEN CAUGHT FORGING PEOPLE'S IDENTITIES ON
USENET AND CANCELLING THEIR POSTS.***
If you are one of his victims, or are simply fed up with his
trolling/newsgroup flooding, forward his posts to [email protected] .
He works in technical support, so forward them to [email protected] too.
See further below for more Cisco contact information.
He often posts through sbcglobal and prodigy, so forward them to
[email protected] and [email protected] as well.
His main hangouts (besides the teenage personals newsgroups) are
rec.travel.air and alt.visa.us.marriage-based, a sleazy newsgroup
where foreigners wanting to immigrate to the US hook up with losers
like Voight who are willing to marry them for money so they can get
their green card. Voight is a pro at this, handing out daily advice
on how to be a sleazoid like him and sell green cards.
When he isn't giving out advice on how to commit federal crimes on
alt.visa.us.marriage-based he is usually on rec.travel.air flooding
that newsgroup with trolls and harassing posters and picking retarded
fights with the regular posters there.
He also tends to post a lot in the personals and penpals newsgroups as
well as the support groups for fat people, lonely folks, and for
depression. Obviously after his Russian Internet brides get their
green cards they flee, leaving him lonely and desperate for company.
Maybe that's why he keeps a P.O. Box at the post office, so he can get
his personals mail there:
Voight, Michael
P.O. Box 67016,
Scotts Valley, CA 95067
(408) 461-8707
The idiot is a two-time high school dropout and had to join the
Marines because even the Army rejected him!
He's got a daughter in Orange County that one of his ex-wives had the
intelligence to take away from him. Lord only knows what could have
happened to her if she had continued to live with the kook. The other
kids he has belong to his previous Russian sleazy brides, and since
they come and go so do the kids. It wouldn't hurt to let Cisco know
what kind of deviant sexual pervert they have working for them.
Many people have wondered how Cisco ever hired such a psycho. It
cheapens their image and credibility in the corporate world after all.
Well, they didn't hire him directly, he came as baggage when they
acquired the company he used to work for, TGV Software. His e-mail
address there used to be <[email protected]>.
All intelligent members of the usenet community have killfiled him, so
he takes great pains to get past their killfiles by rubbing his only
two cerebral neurons together and coming up with gems like:
mrtrav <[email protected]>
mrtrav3 <[email protected]>
mrraveltay <[email protected]>
mrtravelkay <[email protected]>, and
mtravelkay <[email protected]> and <""a.a\"@a,a,a>.
Some of his other trolling aliases are:
Network Guy <[email protected]>
starrystarrynight <[email protected]>
sleepydoc <[email protected]>
jlhunt <[email protected]>
Lost 5 of 8 <[email protected]>
mrt <[email protected]>
news.sf.sbcglobal.net <[email protected]>
not-nomen <[email protected]>
UCLAisthebest <[email protected]>
David Tanner <[email protected]>
Jeff Davies <[email protected]>
BobTheBuilder <[email protected]>
Bill Clarkj <[email protected]>
nonomen ([email protected])
Really Me <[email protected]>.
Lately he's had some gender confusion and has been posting as women,
such as:
JerseyGirl <[email protected]>
Kathy Stoltz <[email protected]>
nothilaryduff <[email protected]>
Perhaps he's thinking of getting a sex change (or worse, raping some
teenage girls).
His latest aliases are anon <[email protected]>and anonymous
<[email protected]>.
It would be a good idea to call Cisco at 1-800-553-2447 and ask to
speak with a supervisor and explain that you are EXTREMELY unhappy
that this idiot spends his whole day at work playing on the internet
on company time. THEY WILL NOT LIKE THAT.
Then write to corporate headquarters explaining what this idiot is
doing and telling them HOW BAD IT IS FOR THEIR COMPANY IMAGE. They
will LOVE that you brought this to their attention:
Cisco Systems, Inc.
170 West Tasman Dr.
San Jose, CA 95134
USA
Then also call them. You should always follow up email or letters
with phone calls. Always ask for supervisors or managers. Try to get
as far up as possible.
(408)526-4000
(800)553-NETS or
(800)553-6387
Contact Investor Relations and tell them you are interested in
investing in their company but won't do so until they get rid of this
asshole who is wasting company resources:
Cisco Systems, Inc.
Investor Relations Department
170 West Tasman Drive
San Jose, CA 95134-1706
Phone: (408) 526-8890
Fax: (408) 526-4545
Email: [email protected]
Might as well contact customer service too, they LOVE to hear about
this type of stuff:
USA 1 800 553 6387
[email protected]
[email protected]
Then finally, send letters with copies of his nasty posts addressed
personally to each one of the OFFICERS of the company using the
headquarters address. Believe me, they READ your complaints and are
VERY INTERESTED in them, especially if it's about one of their
employees. They will take a PERSONAL interest in rooting this ASSHOLE
out of their company:
John Morgridge, Chairman
Phone: (408) 526-8229
Fax: (408) 526-4100
[email protected]
John Chambers, President, CEO
Phone: (408) 526-8222
Fax: (408) 526-4100
[email protected]
Larry Carter, CFO, Sr. VP-Fin. and Admin., Sec., Director
Phone: (408) 526-8211
Fax: (408) 526-4100
Email: [email protected]
Richard Justice, Sr. VP, Worldwide Field Operations
Phone: (408) 527-7371
Fax: (408) 526-4100
Email: [email protected]
Brad Boston,Senior Vice President and Chief Information Officer
Phone: (408) 526-7008
Fax: (408) 526-8220
Email: [email protected]
Susan Lori Bostrom
Senior Vice President, Internet Business Solutions Group
Phone: (408) 527-5648
Fax: (408) 526-4100
Email: [email protected]
Howard S. Charney
Senior Vice President, Office of the President
Phone: (408) 526-8300
Fax: (408) 526-4100
Email: [email protected]
Kate DCamp
Senior Vice President, Human Resources
Phone: (408) 527-9530
Fax: (408) 526-4100
Email: [email protected]
Gail Morales
Manager, Human Resources, Employment
Phone: (408) 527-6654
Fax: (408) 526-4100
Email: [email protected]
Peggy Lynch
Employee Benefits
Phone: (408) 526-8859
Fax: (408) 527-6080
Email: [email protected]
Mario Mazzola
Senior Vice President and Chief Development Officer
Phone: (408) 526-5535
Fax: (408) 526-4100
Email: [email protected]
Betsy Rafael
Vice President and Corporate Controller
Phone: (408) 525-0164
Fax: (408) 526-4100
Email: [email protected]
Claudia Ceniceros
Manager, Public Relations
Phone: (408) 525-4700
Fax: (408) 526-4100
Email: [email protected]
Write, call, and fax:
Cisco Systems, Inc.
170 West Tasman Drive
San Jose, California 95134-1706, USA
Phone: (408) 526-4000
Fax: (408) 526-4100
(800)553-NETS = (800)553-6387
Have fun!
Nov 16th 2004, 2:00 pm
#127
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Delta Pilots End Era of Luxurious Pay
Cisco troll/netkook/pedophile Michael Voight "anon <[email protected]>"
trolled:
/
>Nik wrote:
>> "anon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected] m...
>>
>>>Morgans wrote:
>>>>"AbsolutelyCertain" <[email protected]> wrote
>>>>>Bad mojo. Government + business = no good.
>>>>Yep. The Government saved #3, so that a foreign company could come and
>>>>buy
>>>>it. We still have people working, but BTW, where are the profits going,
>>>>now?
>>>Let me guess... the stockholders?
>>>Americans can buy the stock.....
>>
>>
>> As their saving rate now is the lowest since WWII they have no cash left to
>> buy stocks for.
>They have just as much cash available to buy DCX as they have to buy an
>"American" company
So now you're an international banker and financial advisor too???
Wonder how many will want to take financial advice from someone with
credentials like these:
About rogue Cisco employee and netkook/troll/usenet flooder
Michael Voight, alias "anonymous", "nothilaryduff", "Really Me",
"mrtravel", "mrtravelkay", etc. etc. etc.
Currently posting as anon <[email protected]> .
Recently posting as anonymous <[email protected]>, nothilaryduff
<[email protected]>, Kathy Stoltz <[email protected]>,
Really Me <[email protected]>. See below for a larger list of all
his trolling aliases.
His work e-mail address is <[email protected]>.
Michael D. Voight
111 Bean Creek Rd, No. 118
Scotts Valley, CA 95066-4148
(831) 438-2485
[email protected] .
He is pedophile Gary Burnore's partner in crime. Gary Burnore is a
convicted sex offender/child molester and the biggest kook in the
history of the net.
Voight likes to spend his time in the teenage personals newsgroups
trying to pick up underage girls.
The idiot works for Cisco in their Scotts Valley, California
Technical Assistance Center (TAC) and apparently they don't
keep him busy enough so he has to troll usenet newsgroups all day long
from work.
***WARNING: THIS IDIOT HAS BEEN CAUGHT FORGING PEOPLE'S IDENTITIES ON
USENET AND CANCELLING THEIR POSTS.***
If you are one of his victims, or are simply fed up with his
trolling/newsgroup flooding, forward his posts to [email protected] .
He works in technical support, so forward them to [email protected] too.
See further below for more Cisco contact information.
He often posts through sbcglobal and prodigy, so forward them to
[email protected] and [email protected] as well.
His main hangouts (besides the teenage personals newsgroups) are
rec.travel.air and alt.visa.us.marriage-based, a sleazy newsgroup
where foreigners wanting to immigrate to the US hook up with losers
like Voight who are willing to marry them for money so they can get
their green card. Voight is a pro at this, handing out daily advice
on how to be a sleazoid like him and sell green cards.
When he isn't giving out advice on how to commit federal crimes on
alt.visa.us.marriage-based he is usually on rec.travel.air flooding
that newsgroup with trolls and harassing posters and picking retarded
fights with the regular posters there.
He also tends to post a lot in the personals and penpals newsgroups as
well as the support groups for fat people, lonely folks, and for
depression. Obviously after his Russian Internet brides get their
green cards they flee, leaving him lonely and desperate for company.
Maybe that's why he keeps a P.O. Box at the post office, so he can get
his personals mail there:
Voight, Michael
P.O. Box 67016,
Scotts Valley, CA 95067
(408) 461-8707
The idiot is a two-time high school dropout and had to join the
Marines because even the Army rejected him!
He's got a daughter in Orange County that one of his ex-wives had the
intelligence to take away from him. Lord only knows what could have
happened to her if she had continued to live with the kook. The other
kids he has belong to his previous Russian sleazy brides, and since
they come and go so do the kids. It wouldn't hurt to let Cisco know
what kind of deviant sexual pervert they have working for them.
Many people have wondered how Cisco ever hired such a psycho. It
cheapens their image and credibility in the corporate world after all.
Well, they didn't hire him directly, he came as baggage when they
acquired the company he used to work for, TGV Software. His e-mail
address there used to be <[email protected]>.
All intelligent members of the usenet community have killfiled him, so
he takes great pains to get past their killfiles by rubbing his only
two cerebral neurons together and coming up with gems like:
mrtrav <[email protected]>
mrtrav3 <[email protected]>
mrraveltay <[email protected]>
mrtravelkay <[email protected]>, and
mtravelkay <[email protected]> and <""a.a\"@a,a,a>.
Some of his other trolling aliases are:
Network Guy <[email protected]>
starrystarrynight <[email protected]>
sleepydoc <[email protected]>
jlhunt <[email protected]>
Lost 5 of 8 <[email protected]>
mrt <[email protected]>
news.sf.sbcglobal.net <[email protected]>
not-nomen <[email protected]>
UCLAisthebest <[email protected]>
David Tanner <[email protected]>
Jeff Davies <[email protected]>
BobTheBuilder <[email protected]>
Bill Clarkj <[email protected]>
nonomen ([email protected])
Really Me <[email protected]>.
Lately he's had some gender confusion and has been posting as women,
such as:
JerseyGirl <[email protected]>
Kathy Stoltz <[email protected]>
nothilaryduff <[email protected]>
Perhaps he's thinking of getting a sex change (or worse, raping some
teenage girls).
His latest aliases are anon <[email protected]>and anonymous
<[email protected]>.
It would be a good idea to call Cisco at 1-800-553-2447 and ask to
speak with a supervisor and explain that you are EXTREMELY unhappy
that this idiot spends his whole day at work playing on the internet
on company time. THEY WILL NOT LIKE THAT.
Then write to corporate headquarters explaining what this idiot is
doing and telling them HOW BAD IT IS FOR THEIR COMPANY IMAGE. They
will LOVE that you brought this to their attention:
Cisco Systems, Inc.
170 West Tasman Dr.
San Jose, CA 95134
USA
Then also call them. You should always follow up email or letters
with phone calls. Always ask for supervisors or managers. Try to get
as far up as possible.
(408)526-4000
(800)553-NETS or
(800)553-6387
Contact Investor Relations and tell them you are interested in
investing in their company but won't do so until they get rid of this
asshole who is wasting company resources:
Cisco Systems, Inc.
Investor Relations Department
170 West Tasman Drive
San Jose, CA 95134-1706
Phone: (408) 526-8890
Fax: (408) 526-4545
Email: [email protected]
Might as well contact customer service too, they LOVE to hear about
this type of stuff:
USA 1 800 553 6387
[email protected]
[email protected]
Then finally, send letters with copies of his nasty posts addressed
personally to each one of the OFFICERS of the company using the
headquarters address. Believe me, they READ your complaints and are
VERY INTERESTED in them, especially if it's about one of their
employees. They will take a PERSONAL interest in rooting this ASSHOLE
out of their company:
John Morgridge, Chairman
Phone: (408) 526-8229
Fax: (408) 526-4100
[email protected]
John Chambers, President, CEO
Phone: (408) 526-8222
Fax: (408) 526-4100
[email protected]
Larry Carter, CFO, Sr. VP-Fin. and Admin., Sec., Director
Phone: (408) 526-8211
Fax: (408) 526-4100
Email: [email protected]
Richard Justice, Sr. VP, Worldwide Field Operations
Phone: (408) 527-7371
Fax: (408) 526-4100
Email: [email protected]
Brad Boston,Senior Vice President and Chief Information Officer
Phone: (408) 526-7008
Fax: (408) 526-8220
Email: [email protected]
Susan Lori Bostrom
Senior Vice President, Internet Business Solutions Group
Phone: (408) 527-5648
Fax: (408) 526-4100
Email: [email protected]
Howard S. Charney
Senior Vice President, Office of the President
Phone: (408) 526-8300
Fax: (408) 526-4100
Email: [email protected]
Kate DCamp
Senior Vice President, Human Resources
Phone: (408) 527-9530
Fax: (408) 526-4100
Email: [email protected]
Gail Morales
Manager, Human Resources, Employment
Phone: (408) 527-6654
Fax: (408) 526-4100
Email: [email protected]
Peggy Lynch
Employee Benefits
Phone: (408) 526-8859
Fax: (408) 527-6080
Email: [email protected]
Mario Mazzola
Senior Vice President and Chief Development Officer
Phone: (408) 526-5535
Fax: (408) 526-4100
Email: [email protected]
Betsy Rafael
Vice President and Corporate Controller
Phone: (408) 525-0164
Fax: (408) 526-4100
Email: [email protected]
Claudia Ceniceros
Manager, Public Relations
Phone: (408) 525-4700
Fax: (408) 526-4100
Email: [email protected]
Write, call, and fax:
Cisco Systems, Inc.
170 West Tasman Drive
San Jose, California 95134-1706, USA
Phone: (408) 526-4000
Fax: (408) 526-4100
(800)553-NETS = (800)553-6387
Have fun!
trolled:
/
>Nik wrote:
>> "anon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected] m...
>>
>>>Morgans wrote:
>>>>"AbsolutelyCertain" <[email protected]> wrote
>>>>>Bad mojo. Government + business = no good.
>>>>Yep. The Government saved #3, so that a foreign company could come and
>>>>buy
>>>>it. We still have people working, but BTW, where are the profits going,
>>>>now?
>>>Let me guess... the stockholders?
>>>Americans can buy the stock.....
>>
>>
>> As their saving rate now is the lowest since WWII they have no cash left to
>> buy stocks for.
>They have just as much cash available to buy DCX as they have to buy an
>"American" company
So now you're an international banker and financial advisor too???
Wonder how many will want to take financial advice from someone with
credentials like these:
About rogue Cisco employee and netkook/troll/usenet flooder
Michael Voight, alias "anonymous", "nothilaryduff", "Really Me",
"mrtravel", "mrtravelkay", etc. etc. etc.
Currently posting as anon <[email protected]> .
Recently posting as anonymous <[email protected]>, nothilaryduff
<[email protected]>, Kathy Stoltz <[email protected]>,
Really Me <[email protected]>. See below for a larger list of all
his trolling aliases.
His work e-mail address is <[email protected]>.
Michael D. Voight
111 Bean Creek Rd, No. 118
Scotts Valley, CA 95066-4148
(831) 438-2485
[email protected] .
He is pedophile Gary Burnore's partner in crime. Gary Burnore is a
convicted sex offender/child molester and the biggest kook in the
history of the net.
Voight likes to spend his time in the teenage personals newsgroups
trying to pick up underage girls.
The idiot works for Cisco in their Scotts Valley, California
Technical Assistance Center (TAC) and apparently they don't
keep him busy enough so he has to troll usenet newsgroups all day long
from work.
***WARNING: THIS IDIOT HAS BEEN CAUGHT FORGING PEOPLE'S IDENTITIES ON
USENET AND CANCELLING THEIR POSTS.***
If you are one of his victims, or are simply fed up with his
trolling/newsgroup flooding, forward his posts to [email protected] .
He works in technical support, so forward them to [email protected] too.
See further below for more Cisco contact information.
He often posts through sbcglobal and prodigy, so forward them to
[email protected] and [email protected] as well.
His main hangouts (besides the teenage personals newsgroups) are
rec.travel.air and alt.visa.us.marriage-based, a sleazy newsgroup
where foreigners wanting to immigrate to the US hook up with losers
like Voight who are willing to marry them for money so they can get
their green card. Voight is a pro at this, handing out daily advice
on how to be a sleazoid like him and sell green cards.
When he isn't giving out advice on how to commit federal crimes on
alt.visa.us.marriage-based he is usually on rec.travel.air flooding
that newsgroup with trolls and harassing posters and picking retarded
fights with the regular posters there.
He also tends to post a lot in the personals and penpals newsgroups as
well as the support groups for fat people, lonely folks, and for
depression. Obviously after his Russian Internet brides get their
green cards they flee, leaving him lonely and desperate for company.
Maybe that's why he keeps a P.O. Box at the post office, so he can get
his personals mail there:
Voight, Michael
P.O. Box 67016,
Scotts Valley, CA 95067
(408) 461-8707
The idiot is a two-time high school dropout and had to join the
Marines because even the Army rejected him!
He's got a daughter in Orange County that one of his ex-wives had the
intelligence to take away from him. Lord only knows what could have
happened to her if she had continued to live with the kook. The other
kids he has belong to his previous Russian sleazy brides, and since
they come and go so do the kids. It wouldn't hurt to let Cisco know
what kind of deviant sexual pervert they have working for them.
Many people have wondered how Cisco ever hired such a psycho. It
cheapens their image and credibility in the corporate world after all.
Well, they didn't hire him directly, he came as baggage when they
acquired the company he used to work for, TGV Software. His e-mail
address there used to be <[email protected]>.
All intelligent members of the usenet community have killfiled him, so
he takes great pains to get past their killfiles by rubbing his only
two cerebral neurons together and coming up with gems like:
mrtrav <[email protected]>
mrtrav3 <[email protected]>
mrraveltay <[email protected]>
mrtravelkay <[email protected]>, and
mtravelkay <[email protected]> and <""a.a\"@a,a,a>.
Some of his other trolling aliases are:
Network Guy <[email protected]>
starrystarrynight <[email protected]>
sleepydoc <[email protected]>
jlhunt <[email protected]>
Lost 5 of 8 <[email protected]>
mrt <[email protected]>
news.sf.sbcglobal.net <[email protected]>
not-nomen <[email protected]>
UCLAisthebest <[email protected]>
David Tanner <[email protected]>
Jeff Davies <[email protected]>
BobTheBuilder <[email protected]>
Bill Clarkj <[email protected]>
nonomen ([email protected])
Really Me <[email protected]>.
Lately he's had some gender confusion and has been posting as women,
such as:
JerseyGirl <[email protected]>
Kathy Stoltz <[email protected]>
nothilaryduff <[email protected]>
Perhaps he's thinking of getting a sex change (or worse, raping some
teenage girls).
His latest aliases are anon <[email protected]>and anonymous
<[email protected]>.
It would be a good idea to call Cisco at 1-800-553-2447 and ask to
speak with a supervisor and explain that you are EXTREMELY unhappy
that this idiot spends his whole day at work playing on the internet
on company time. THEY WILL NOT LIKE THAT.
Then write to corporate headquarters explaining what this idiot is
doing and telling them HOW BAD IT IS FOR THEIR COMPANY IMAGE. They
will LOVE that you brought this to their attention:
Cisco Systems, Inc.
170 West Tasman Dr.
San Jose, CA 95134
USA
Then also call them. You should always follow up email or letters
with phone calls. Always ask for supervisors or managers. Try to get
as far up as possible.
(408)526-4000
(800)553-NETS or
(800)553-6387
Contact Investor Relations and tell them you are interested in
investing in their company but won't do so until they get rid of this
asshole who is wasting company resources:
Cisco Systems, Inc.
Investor Relations Department
170 West Tasman Drive
San Jose, CA 95134-1706
Phone: (408) 526-8890
Fax: (408) 526-4545
Email: [email protected]
Might as well contact customer service too, they LOVE to hear about
this type of stuff:
USA 1 800 553 6387
[email protected]
[email protected]
Then finally, send letters with copies of his nasty posts addressed
personally to each one of the OFFICERS of the company using the
headquarters address. Believe me, they READ your complaints and are
VERY INTERESTED in them, especially if it's about one of their
employees. They will take a PERSONAL interest in rooting this ASSHOLE
out of their company:
John Morgridge, Chairman
Phone: (408) 526-8229
Fax: (408) 526-4100
[email protected]
John Chambers, President, CEO
Phone: (408) 526-8222
Fax: (408) 526-4100
[email protected]
Larry Carter, CFO, Sr. VP-Fin. and Admin., Sec., Director
Phone: (408) 526-8211
Fax: (408) 526-4100
Email: [email protected]
Richard Justice, Sr. VP, Worldwide Field Operations
Phone: (408) 527-7371
Fax: (408) 526-4100
Email: [email protected]
Brad Boston,Senior Vice President and Chief Information Officer
Phone: (408) 526-7008
Fax: (408) 526-8220
Email: [email protected]
Susan Lori Bostrom
Senior Vice President, Internet Business Solutions Group
Phone: (408) 527-5648
Fax: (408) 526-4100
Email: [email protected]
Howard S. Charney
Senior Vice President, Office of the President
Phone: (408) 526-8300
Fax: (408) 526-4100
Email: [email protected]
Kate DCamp
Senior Vice President, Human Resources
Phone: (408) 527-9530
Fax: (408) 526-4100
Email: [email protected]
Gail Morales
Manager, Human Resources, Employment
Phone: (408) 527-6654
Fax: (408) 526-4100
Email: [email protected]
Peggy Lynch
Employee Benefits
Phone: (408) 526-8859
Fax: (408) 527-6080
Email: [email protected]
Mario Mazzola
Senior Vice President and Chief Development Officer
Phone: (408) 526-5535
Fax: (408) 526-4100
Email: [email protected]
Betsy Rafael
Vice President and Corporate Controller
Phone: (408) 525-0164
Fax: (408) 526-4100
Email: [email protected]
Claudia Ceniceros
Manager, Public Relations
Phone: (408) 525-4700
Fax: (408) 526-4100
Email: [email protected]
Write, call, and fax:
Cisco Systems, Inc.
170 West Tasman Drive
San Jose, California 95134-1706, USA
Phone: (408) 526-4000
Fax: (408) 526-4100
(800)553-NETS = (800)553-6387
Have fun!
Nov 17th 2004, 2:44 am
#128
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Delta Pilots End Era of Luxurious Pay
Nomen Nescio wrote:
You get pretty worked up don't ya?
You get pretty worked up don't ya?
Nov 17th 2004, 3:50 am
#129
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Delta Pilots End Era of Luxurious Pay
On 16 Nov 2004 09:37:16 -0800, [email protected] (Jim Rosinski)
wrote:
>[email protected] (Robert M. Gary) wrote
>> > How do you "dump" airplanes? If you sell them then that capacity is still
>> > in the market. If you simply ground or scrap them you don't same any money,
>> > you still have to pay for them.
>> Right. The real solution is to let free market (not unions) work the
>> way they are suppose to work.
>You make it sound as though the process of collective bargaining is
>incompatible with free markets. It isn't. United (and soon Delta)
>pilots unions are swallowing huge cuts in pay and benefits because
>they realize half a loaf is better than none.
You're absolutely right. However, it's worth noting that the areas
where unions and collective bargaining still have a lot of weight are
those sectors where there's a limited amount of free-market demand or
where that demand fluctuates wildly based on the economy
(construction, for instance).
>Jim Rosinski
wrote:
>[email protected] (Robert M. Gary) wrote
>> > How do you "dump" airplanes? If you sell them then that capacity is still
>> > in the market. If you simply ground or scrap them you don't same any money,
>> > you still have to pay for them.
>> Right. The real solution is to let free market (not unions) work the
>> way they are suppose to work.
>You make it sound as though the process of collective bargaining is
>incompatible with free markets. It isn't. United (and soon Delta)
>pilots unions are swallowing huge cuts in pay and benefits because
>they realize half a loaf is better than none.
You're absolutely right. However, it's worth noting that the areas
where unions and collective bargaining still have a lot of weight are
those sectors where there's a limited amount of free-market demand or
where that demand fluctuates wildly based on the economy
(construction, for instance).
>Jim Rosinski
Nov 17th 2004, 11:29 am
#130
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Delta Pilots End Era of Luxurious Pay
[email protected] (running with scissors) wrote
> Airline economics are very very complex with influencing factors that
> range from the unforseeable to the predictable.
>
> The fact is that airlines operate at very minimal profit margins, and
> as such they have to maintain quantity.
>
> I wont even start to go into the economics of here as i have neither
> the time, nor the motivation to go into the variances, factors,
> issues, effects, results or postulations.
Evidently you also have neither the motivation, nor possibly the
ability, to compose coherent sentences. And whenever I read this
"It's too complicated to explain" crap I figure the writer doesn't
really know what they're talking about and are just engaging in
typical usenet "posturing".
Jim Rosinski
> Airline economics are very very complex with influencing factors that
> range from the unforseeable to the predictable.
>
> The fact is that airlines operate at very minimal profit margins, and
> as such they have to maintain quantity.
>
> I wont even start to go into the economics of here as i have neither
> the time, nor the motivation to go into the variances, factors,
> issues, effects, results or postulations.
Evidently you also have neither the motivation, nor possibly the
ability, to compose coherent sentences. And whenever I read this
"It's too complicated to explain" crap I figure the writer doesn't
really know what they're talking about and are just engaging in
typical usenet "posturing".
Jim Rosinski
Nov 17th 2004, 2:39 pm
#131
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Delta Pilots End Era of Luxurious Pay
"Mike Rapoport" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected] hlink.net...
> "John Mazor" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > What about the fees? IIRC, that's $11 billion/year.
> The fees are a pass through. They are a government charge collected by
the airline.
But they add to the cost of air travel. Eliminate the taxes, lower the net
ticket price accordingly, and more people would fly. Or eliminate the taxes
but maintain the net price, and that's a lot of money in the airline's
revenue column.
> > Cut capacity by 10% and you can cut labor, fuel, and fleet costs by 10%.
> > Hell, you can let go of gates, and probably other costs, too, like
landing
> > fes and all those federal fees. What's left? Something, to be sure,
but
> > not enough to justify losing 10 cents on every dollar of ticket price in
the
> > quest to gain market share and dilute fixed costs.
> When you reduce capacity by 10% you don't cut the fleet costs, that is the
> problem. You have to keep paying the leases and financing and the planes
> keep depreciating. Of course eventually those cost go away too but when
you
> look at the picture on any given day, you can't reduce fleet costs.
Park a airplane and you immediately eliminate fuel, maintenance, and labor
costs (furlough the crews, ticketing, gate agents, etc.). Leases can be
sold or renegotiated or subleased. Not right away, and probably at some
loss, but they don't have to be carried at full book value for full term.
Even if you have to eat the lease, what's the marginal cost of parking it
(lease + storage) vs. the cost (operating loss) of flying it? Even if the
former exceeds the latter and you can reneogtiate or sell the leases, you
can phase out aircraft as leases expire. The point is, airlnes need to go
on a capacity diet but they keep stopping to fill their plates at the
dessert counter, greedily stuffing themselves in the hope that by doing so
there won't be any left over for the other guy.
> >> Even if a major player
> >> disappeared, all the aircraft and other infrastructure would still
exist.
> >> Somebody would buy it at some price and put it back to work. This new
> >> entrant would then have lower costs and put preasure on the other
carriers.
> >
> > So the "dog in a manger" approach is a valid business plan? I gotta
keep
> > losing money on every flight or my competitor is going to get my planes
and
> > operate them against me?
> Sort of. The real answer is that you shouldn't have bought the planes if
> you can't make money on them.
Leased. Hardly anyone owns them outright any more. And leases can be
renegotiated, subleased, etc.
> > Back in the early 1980s, when the first new entrants were emerging, I
heard
> > an arline analyst tell a roomful of executives that "you people are
crazy."
> > You sell your old DC-9s and 727s to the new entrants for a lousy couple
of
> > million each and then complain how they're eating your lunch. If you
had
> > any sense at all, you would have taken every surplus airliner out to the
> > desert and cut it up for scrap value.
> Probably true. The real solution would be for the existing carriers to
> lower their costs to the level of the new entrants, then the economics
would
> be the same assuming that they were selling the aircraft at book value.
"Lower their costs to the level of the new entrants" - an impossiblity,
unless you want UAL or DAL or whoever, to operate into just ~70 cities, as
does Southwest, or the few dozen cities that other LCCs serve. You want
international service, you want hubs, you need more than one kind of
airplane, you want loyalty programs? Then you'll never get network costs
down to LCC costs.
> There are other businesses which have the same problem. I remember the
San
> Francisco office market did the same thing. A bunch of new buildings
would
> be constructed and rents would collapse, there would be a series of
> bankrupcies and nobody would build new buildings.for awhile Eventually
the
> demand would grow and the rents would go up. Since everybody was looking
at
> the same facts, they came to the same conclusion which was to build new
> buildings! Twenty buildings would be designed and financed at the same
> time. The buildings would all be finished at the same time which, of
> course, caused rents to collapse and the cycle started over.
A bit of apples and oranges here. But the boom-bust cycles do mirror air
transport.
> Semiconductor manufacturing is the same way. A new fab costs about $2B
with
> 80% of that being machinery. The machinery will be obsolete in 3.5yrs so
> the cost has to be recovered in that time. The market gets good,
> semiconductor prices go up and everybody builds new fabs to take advantage
> of the high prices. The fabs all come on line at the same time and prices
> collapse causing the companies to loose money. But so much of the cost is
> depreciation of the equipment that they run flat out anyway. Eventually
> some of the older fabs shut down as pricing goes below variable cost. At
> the same time demand continues to grow and prices stabilize or go up and
the
> cycle renews. The semiconductor industry doesn't make money over long
> periods of time, just like airlines.
Could well be - but where does "get our prices low enough and we'll make
money" fit into that model, either? It all goes back to too many business
decisions to add capacity for demand that isn't there except in limited
situations for limited times.
> Airlines behave the same. Demand gets good relative to supply and the
> industry become profitable. Everybody adds capacity to take advantage
until
> the added supply ends the period of profitability. Somewhere along the
line
> there is a study that shows that air travel will increase 10x over the
next
> 30yrs and the business will no longer go in cycles. It is usually time to
> sell when you see this study.
Heh, that may be the one way to make money on airline stocks!
> I have made my living investing in these cycles looking for a disconnect
> between reality and perception.
And I made my living watching from a seat on the 50-yard line as the airline
industry struggled to accommodate deregulation. Let me reiterate Crandall's
shrewd observation - not exclusive to air transport but certainly appropos -
that airlines make business decisions that make perfect sense from their
individual viewpoint, but collectively, they add up to disaster for the
industry. (I'd quibble over whether all of these decisions would have made
sense to a truly astute management, but the principle still is valid.)
> Classic free market theory really doesn't
> explain the real world. It assumes that there are an infinite number of
> suppliers and customers and that capacity can always be added or taken
away
> at the margin.
True to an extent, but airline capacity and fixed costs can be mitigated
over a relatively short period of time - certainly a shorter period than the
airlines have been bleeding. And they still don't get it. Capacity almost
never gets cut voluntarily - it takes an airline failure to do that, and in
every case, additional capacity was pumped back into the system in a
counterproductive attempt to add market share. This was a deliberate
decision to add airplanes (from existing or new entrants) when all they had
to do was do nothing.
And the theory also assumes perfect consumer knowledge - which did not exist
before the advent of Internet pricing. Now airlines are paying the price,
so to speak, for trying to play that game.
> In reality, the number of suppliers and customers is finite,
> capacity is added in large increments and has a long life. You can't take
> airline capacity offline until the revenue is less than short term
variable
> cost (fuel, labor).
Sure you can. You just need to be able to look far enough past your nose to
figure out the trends and act ahead of the fact.
You keep focusing on dealing with a snapshot of a given day's overcapacity
crisis - which as I said can be mitigated - but you also have to ask "What
were they thinking?" when airlines placed orders. Look at Southwest's
model - they don't add capacity until they know they can fill the seats
profitably over the long haul. Their current round of expansion is going to
be fueled by whatever they can grab from US Airways and maybe United and
Delta, plus adding permutations of direct flights within their "network" of
~70 cities. That will keep them busy for about 5 years. Then they're going
to have to assess the markets that currently are dominated by other
carriers. Right now, them's slim pickings, which is why growth in the new
LCCs and even the regionals is going to slow significantly for a while, and
perhaps even in the long term.
And look at Independence Air - they ordered big iron and tried to jump-start
a full-blown LCC from the git-go, the exact opposite of the way to build a
LCC. What were they thinking?
> The unprofitability and cyclicality of the business is
> unlikely to change regardless of any action taken by the governement or
the
> industry. Probably the only way would be to re-regulate.
The third rail of airline policy.
news:[email protected] hlink.net...
> "John Mazor" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > What about the fees? IIRC, that's $11 billion/year.
> The fees are a pass through. They are a government charge collected by
the airline.
But they add to the cost of air travel. Eliminate the taxes, lower the net
ticket price accordingly, and more people would fly. Or eliminate the taxes
but maintain the net price, and that's a lot of money in the airline's
revenue column.
> > Cut capacity by 10% and you can cut labor, fuel, and fleet costs by 10%.
> > Hell, you can let go of gates, and probably other costs, too, like
landing
> > fes and all those federal fees. What's left? Something, to be sure,
but
> > not enough to justify losing 10 cents on every dollar of ticket price in
the
> > quest to gain market share and dilute fixed costs.
> When you reduce capacity by 10% you don't cut the fleet costs, that is the
> problem. You have to keep paying the leases and financing and the planes
> keep depreciating. Of course eventually those cost go away too but when
you
> look at the picture on any given day, you can't reduce fleet costs.
Park a airplane and you immediately eliminate fuel, maintenance, and labor
costs (furlough the crews, ticketing, gate agents, etc.). Leases can be
sold or renegotiated or subleased. Not right away, and probably at some
loss, but they don't have to be carried at full book value for full term.
Even if you have to eat the lease, what's the marginal cost of parking it
(lease + storage) vs. the cost (operating loss) of flying it? Even if the
former exceeds the latter and you can reneogtiate or sell the leases, you
can phase out aircraft as leases expire. The point is, airlnes need to go
on a capacity diet but they keep stopping to fill their plates at the
dessert counter, greedily stuffing themselves in the hope that by doing so
there won't be any left over for the other guy.
> >> Even if a major player
> >> disappeared, all the aircraft and other infrastructure would still
exist.
> >> Somebody would buy it at some price and put it back to work. This new
> >> entrant would then have lower costs and put preasure on the other
carriers.
> >
> > So the "dog in a manger" approach is a valid business plan? I gotta
keep
> > losing money on every flight or my competitor is going to get my planes
and
> > operate them against me?
> Sort of. The real answer is that you shouldn't have bought the planes if
> you can't make money on them.
Leased. Hardly anyone owns them outright any more. And leases can be
renegotiated, subleased, etc.
> > Back in the early 1980s, when the first new entrants were emerging, I
heard
> > an arline analyst tell a roomful of executives that "you people are
crazy."
> > You sell your old DC-9s and 727s to the new entrants for a lousy couple
of
> > million each and then complain how they're eating your lunch. If you
had
> > any sense at all, you would have taken every surplus airliner out to the
> > desert and cut it up for scrap value.
> Probably true. The real solution would be for the existing carriers to
> lower their costs to the level of the new entrants, then the economics
would
> be the same assuming that they were selling the aircraft at book value.
"Lower their costs to the level of the new entrants" - an impossiblity,
unless you want UAL or DAL or whoever, to operate into just ~70 cities, as
does Southwest, or the few dozen cities that other LCCs serve. You want
international service, you want hubs, you need more than one kind of
airplane, you want loyalty programs? Then you'll never get network costs
down to LCC costs.
> There are other businesses which have the same problem. I remember the
San
> Francisco office market did the same thing. A bunch of new buildings
would
> be constructed and rents would collapse, there would be a series of
> bankrupcies and nobody would build new buildings.for awhile Eventually
the
> demand would grow and the rents would go up. Since everybody was looking
at
> the same facts, they came to the same conclusion which was to build new
> buildings! Twenty buildings would be designed and financed at the same
> time. The buildings would all be finished at the same time which, of
> course, caused rents to collapse and the cycle started over.
A bit of apples and oranges here. But the boom-bust cycles do mirror air
transport.
> Semiconductor manufacturing is the same way. A new fab costs about $2B
with
> 80% of that being machinery. The machinery will be obsolete in 3.5yrs so
> the cost has to be recovered in that time. The market gets good,
> semiconductor prices go up and everybody builds new fabs to take advantage
> of the high prices. The fabs all come on line at the same time and prices
> collapse causing the companies to loose money. But so much of the cost is
> depreciation of the equipment that they run flat out anyway. Eventually
> some of the older fabs shut down as pricing goes below variable cost. At
> the same time demand continues to grow and prices stabilize or go up and
the
> cycle renews. The semiconductor industry doesn't make money over long
> periods of time, just like airlines.
Could well be - but where does "get our prices low enough and we'll make
money" fit into that model, either? It all goes back to too many business
decisions to add capacity for demand that isn't there except in limited
situations for limited times.
> Airlines behave the same. Demand gets good relative to supply and the
> industry become profitable. Everybody adds capacity to take advantage
until
> the added supply ends the period of profitability. Somewhere along the
line
> there is a study that shows that air travel will increase 10x over the
next
> 30yrs and the business will no longer go in cycles. It is usually time to
> sell when you see this study.
Heh, that may be the one way to make money on airline stocks!
> I have made my living investing in these cycles looking for a disconnect
> between reality and perception.
And I made my living watching from a seat on the 50-yard line as the airline
industry struggled to accommodate deregulation. Let me reiterate Crandall's
shrewd observation - not exclusive to air transport but certainly appropos -
that airlines make business decisions that make perfect sense from their
individual viewpoint, but collectively, they add up to disaster for the
industry. (I'd quibble over whether all of these decisions would have made
sense to a truly astute management, but the principle still is valid.)
> Classic free market theory really doesn't
> explain the real world. It assumes that there are an infinite number of
> suppliers and customers and that capacity can always be added or taken
away
> at the margin.
True to an extent, but airline capacity and fixed costs can be mitigated
over a relatively short period of time - certainly a shorter period than the
airlines have been bleeding. And they still don't get it. Capacity almost
never gets cut voluntarily - it takes an airline failure to do that, and in
every case, additional capacity was pumped back into the system in a
counterproductive attempt to add market share. This was a deliberate
decision to add airplanes (from existing or new entrants) when all they had
to do was do nothing.
And the theory also assumes perfect consumer knowledge - which did not exist
before the advent of Internet pricing. Now airlines are paying the price,
so to speak, for trying to play that game.
> In reality, the number of suppliers and customers is finite,
> capacity is added in large increments and has a long life. You can't take
> airline capacity offline until the revenue is less than short term
variable
> cost (fuel, labor).
Sure you can. You just need to be able to look far enough past your nose to
figure out the trends and act ahead of the fact.
You keep focusing on dealing with a snapshot of a given day's overcapacity
crisis - which as I said can be mitigated - but you also have to ask "What
were they thinking?" when airlines placed orders. Look at Southwest's
model - they don't add capacity until they know they can fill the seats
profitably over the long haul. Their current round of expansion is going to
be fueled by whatever they can grab from US Airways and maybe United and
Delta, plus adding permutations of direct flights within their "network" of
~70 cities. That will keep them busy for about 5 years. Then they're going
to have to assess the markets that currently are dominated by other
carriers. Right now, them's slim pickings, which is why growth in the new
LCCs and even the regionals is going to slow significantly for a while, and
perhaps even in the long term.
And look at Independence Air - they ordered big iron and tried to jump-start
a full-blown LCC from the git-go, the exact opposite of the way to build a
LCC. What were they thinking?
> The unprofitability and cyclicality of the business is
> unlikely to change regardless of any action taken by the governement or
the
> industry. Probably the only way would be to re-regulate.
The third rail of airline policy.
Nov 17th 2004, 2:45 pm
#132
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Delta Pilots End Era of Luxurious Pay
"Mike Rapoport" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected] link.net...
> "John Mazor" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > "Jim Rosinski" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected] m...
> >> "John Mazor" <[email protected]> wrote
> >>
> >> > Excess capacity is what's killing the industry. And that's got
nothing
> > to
> >> > do with the price of labor
> >>
> >> Of course it does. When some pilots are earning more than $300K/yr,
> >> that makes the cost of those unfilled seats to the airline just so much
> > more.
> >
> > Dump airplanes then furlough pilots. Fewer unfilled seats and lower
costs
> > to boot. Duh.
> How do you "dump" airplanes? If you sell them then that capacity is still
> in the market. If you simply ground or scrap them you don't same any
money,
> you still have to pay for them.
It wouldn't necessarily solve the overall capacity problem - in one way it
would exacerbate it by lowering the cost of a new entrant acquiring surplus
planes.
But in terms of that airline's bottom line, that would make perfect sense.
Let some other sucker try to make a buck with them. The real losers would
be the manufacturers, whose new production would have to compete with
cheaper used airplanes.
news:[email protected] link.net...
> "John Mazor" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > "Jim Rosinski" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected] m...
> >> "John Mazor" <[email protected]> wrote
> >>
> >> > Excess capacity is what's killing the industry. And that's got
nothing
> > to
> >> > do with the price of labor
> >>
> >> Of course it does. When some pilots are earning more than $300K/yr,
> >> that makes the cost of those unfilled seats to the airline just so much
> > more.
> >
> > Dump airplanes then furlough pilots. Fewer unfilled seats and lower
costs
> > to boot. Duh.
> How do you "dump" airplanes? If you sell them then that capacity is still
> in the market. If you simply ground or scrap them you don't same any
money,
> you still have to pay for them.
It wouldn't necessarily solve the overall capacity problem - in one way it
would exacerbate it by lowering the cost of a new entrant acquiring surplus
planes.
But in terms of that airline's bottom line, that would make perfect sense.
Let some other sucker try to make a buck with them. The real losers would
be the manufacturers, whose new production would have to compete with
cheaper used airplanes.
Nov 17th 2004, 2:58 pm
#133
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Delta Pilots End Era of Luxurious Pay
John Mazor wrote:
> And I made my living watching from a seat on the 50-yard line as the
> airline industry struggled to accommodate deregulation. Let me
> reiterate Crandall's shrewd observation - not exclusive to air
> transport but certainly appropos - that airlines make business
> decisions that make perfect sense from their individual viewpoint,
> but collectively, they add up to disaster for the industry.
Hardly original to Crandall - it's the tragedy of the commons all over
again.
> And I made my living watching from a seat on the 50-yard line as the
> airline industry struggled to accommodate deregulation. Let me
> reiterate Crandall's shrewd observation - not exclusive to air
> transport but certainly appropos - that airlines make business
> decisions that make perfect sense from their individual viewpoint,
> but collectively, they add up to disaster for the industry.
Hardly original to Crandall - it's the tragedy of the commons all over
again.
Nov 17th 2004, 3:13 pm
#134
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Delta Pilots End Era of Luxurious Pay
"Robert M. Gary" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected] om...
> "Mike Rapoport" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected] hlink.net>...
> > "John Mazor" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > How do you "dump" airplanes? If you sell them then that capacity is
still
> > in the market. If you simply ground or scrap them you don't same any
money,
> > you still have to pay for them.
> Right.
But irrelevant. In today's environment the marginal cost of operating an
airplane can exceed the fixed lease cost. If the marginal revenue of
operating the aircraft doesn't exceed the marginal cost then ou're better
off parking it. And in that case you are pretty stupid if you renew or
don't get out of the lease.
> The real solution is to let free market (not unions)
Get real. Unions are part of the market. How much difference is there
between a union using the collective clout of all the workers to get
employers to deal on its terms, versus Wal-Mart using its collective clout
to try to get suppliers to deal on its terms? You just want all the
negotiating power to be in the hands of the executives.
Which, of course, would be pure laissez faire capitalism, which nobody in
their right mind would advocate. Been there, done that, didn't like what it
produced.
> work the way they are suppose to work. In free market the companies will
> realize that there is not enough profit for all these companies to
survive.
Which is exactly what should be happening. Duh. Except the airlines don't
get it.
> So the market must contract and companies must merge or go
> out of business. This is a normal and healthy course of business.
Which is exactly what is happening. Duh. Except the airlines don't get it.
> If companies get stuck with outdated salery liabilities they will not be
> attractive for merger and will go out of business. This is free
> market's way of cleaning up these bad contracts.
Which is exactly what is happening. Duh. Except the airlines don't get it.
> The rest of the free world see their saleries go up and down as demand
> for their labor changes (including CEO saleries). Pilots should be no
different.
You think that executive salaries are coupled to the market value of their
services? What planet are you posting from? Executive pay is the biggest
rigged game going nowadays.
news:[email protected] om...
> "Mike Rapoport" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected] hlink.net>...
> > "John Mazor" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > How do you "dump" airplanes? If you sell them then that capacity is
still
> > in the market. If you simply ground or scrap them you don't same any
money,
> > you still have to pay for them.
> Right.
But irrelevant. In today's environment the marginal cost of operating an
airplane can exceed the fixed lease cost. If the marginal revenue of
operating the aircraft doesn't exceed the marginal cost then ou're better
off parking it. And in that case you are pretty stupid if you renew or
don't get out of the lease.
> The real solution is to let free market (not unions)
Get real. Unions are part of the market. How much difference is there
between a union using the collective clout of all the workers to get
employers to deal on its terms, versus Wal-Mart using its collective clout
to try to get suppliers to deal on its terms? You just want all the
negotiating power to be in the hands of the executives.
Which, of course, would be pure laissez faire capitalism, which nobody in
their right mind would advocate. Been there, done that, didn't like what it
produced.
> work the way they are suppose to work. In free market the companies will
> realize that there is not enough profit for all these companies to
survive.
Which is exactly what should be happening. Duh. Except the airlines don't
get it.
> So the market must contract and companies must merge or go
> out of business. This is a normal and healthy course of business.
Which is exactly what is happening. Duh. Except the airlines don't get it.
> If companies get stuck with outdated salery liabilities they will not be
> attractive for merger and will go out of business. This is free
> market's way of cleaning up these bad contracts.
Which is exactly what is happening. Duh. Except the airlines don't get it.
> The rest of the free world see their saleries go up and down as demand
> for their labor changes (including CEO saleries). Pilots should be no
different.
You think that executive salaries are coupled to the market value of their
services? What planet are you posting from? Executive pay is the biggest
rigged game going nowadays.
Nov 17th 2004, 3:15 pm
#135
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Delta Pilots End Era of Luxurious Pay
"Cyrus Afzali" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 16 Nov 2004 09:37:16 -0800, [email protected] (Jim Rosinski)
> wrote:
> >[email protected] (Robert M. Gary) wrote
> >
> >> > How do you "dump" airplanes? If you sell them then that capacity is
still
> >> > in the market. If you simply ground or scrap them you don't same any
money,
> >> > you still have to pay for them.
> >
> >> Right. The real solution is to let free market (not unions) work the
> >> way they are suppose to work.
> >
> >You make it sound as though the process of collective bargaining is
> >incompatible with free markets. It isn't. United (and soon Delta)
> >pilots unions are swallowing huge cuts in pay and benefits because
> >they realize half a loaf is better than none.
> You're absolutely right. However, it's worth noting that the areas
> where unions and collective bargaining still have a lot of weight are
> those sectors where there's a limited amount of free-market demand or
> where that demand fluctuates wildly based on the economy
> (construction, for instance).
Nonsense. Ask any retailer.
news:[email protected]...
> On 16 Nov 2004 09:37:16 -0800, [email protected] (Jim Rosinski)
> wrote:
> >[email protected] (Robert M. Gary) wrote
> >
> >> > How do you "dump" airplanes? If you sell them then that capacity is
still
> >> > in the market. If you simply ground or scrap them you don't same any
money,
> >> > you still have to pay for them.
> >
> >> Right. The real solution is to let free market (not unions) work the
> >> way they are suppose to work.
> >
> >You make it sound as though the process of collective bargaining is
> >incompatible with free markets. It isn't. United (and soon Delta)
> >pilots unions are swallowing huge cuts in pay and benefits because
> >they realize half a loaf is better than none.
> You're absolutely right. However, it's worth noting that the areas
> where unions and collective bargaining still have a lot of weight are
> those sectors where there's a limited amount of free-market demand or
> where that demand fluctuates wildly based on the economy
> (construction, for instance).
Nonsense. Ask any retailer.
