Delta Pilots End Era of Luxurious Pay
Nov 13th 2004, 3:02 am
#31
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Delta Pilots End Era of Luxurious Pay
"G.R. Patterson III" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> AbsolutelyCertain wrote:
> >
> > Don't sell government bailouts short.
> >
> > Thanks to Uncle Sam, Chrysler was saved from extinction, and now we have
the
> > Grand Prizes: The Neon, and the PT Cruiser.
> Chrysler didn't get any bailout from the government. What they did was get
the
> government to cosign their loans. Since they survived, it didn't cost the
taxpayers a
> dime. Not the same as the airline situation at all.
The terms of the deal may be different, but government rescue of
corporations is still government rescue of corporations. It is the same
situation: Unwise interference with the marketplace. The fine print
doesn't matter.
In the words of the immortal Sen. Seabright Cooley, I'm "unalterably
opposed, sir" to the whole idea.
Apologies to Alan Drury.
news:[email protected]...
> AbsolutelyCertain wrote:
> >
> > Don't sell government bailouts short.
> >
> > Thanks to Uncle Sam, Chrysler was saved from extinction, and now we have
the
> > Grand Prizes: The Neon, and the PT Cruiser.
> Chrysler didn't get any bailout from the government. What they did was get
the
> government to cosign their loans. Since they survived, it didn't cost the
taxpayers a
> dime. Not the same as the airline situation at all.
The terms of the deal may be different, but government rescue of
corporations is still government rescue of corporations. It is the same
situation: Unwise interference with the marketplace. The fine print
doesn't matter.
In the words of the immortal Sen. Seabright Cooley, I'm "unalterably
opposed, sir" to the whole idea.
Apologies to Alan Drury.
Nov 13th 2004, 3:43 am
#32
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Delta Pilots End Era of Luxurious Pay
Nik wrote:
>There is another problem here and that is that it is questionable whether a
>significant part of the security measures in airports are in fact making us
>any safer at all.
Or as this security consultant puts it ... it's security theatre.
http://www.schneier.com/essay-051.html
On Bill Maher's HBO show in August, DJ Hughley had
a great line (paraphrased) ... "it ain't the profiling that
concerns me but who's doing the profiling!"
gld
>There is another problem here and that is that it is questionable whether a
>significant part of the security measures in airports are in fact making us
>any safer at all.
Or as this security consultant puts it ... it's security theatre.
http://www.schneier.com/essay-051.html
On Bill Maher's HBO show in August, DJ Hughley had
a great line (paraphrased) ... "it ain't the profiling that
concerns me but who's doing the profiling!"
gld
Nov 13th 2004, 3:47 am
#33
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Delta Pilots End Era of Luxurious Pay
"Jay Honeck" <[email protected]> writes:
> > It is amazing these airlines have soaked up billions of Dollars in Federal
> > subsidies and still cannot get by.
>
> Which was, of course, the reason many of us argued against bailing them out
> in the first place.
>
> If the business climate is such that an airline cannot make money without
> taxpayer support, let it die. The surviving airlines will pounce on the
> opportunity, becoming more efficient in the long run.
Great idea. Let's apply this to the ag business in the USA first
though.
In fact, let's apply this to entire states and regions. The entire
Mid-West and South would collapse without the two Coasts subsidizing
them. Not a bad thing really.
> > It is amazing these airlines have soaked up billions of Dollars in Federal
> > subsidies and still cannot get by.
>
> Which was, of course, the reason many of us argued against bailing them out
> in the first place.
>
> If the business climate is such that an airline cannot make money without
> taxpayer support, let it die. The surviving airlines will pounce on the
> opportunity, becoming more efficient in the long run.
Great idea. Let's apply this to the ag business in the USA first
though.
In fact, let's apply this to entire states and regions. The entire
Mid-West and South would collapse without the two Coasts subsidizing
them. Not a bad thing really.
Nov 13th 2004, 4:03 am
#34
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Delta Pilots End Era of Luxurious Pay
Another thing to consider is that while nonvoters are being
screened more carefully, Al Qaeda has access to US citizens.
On CNN, terrorism expert Peter Bergen (in frustration to
Richard Perle reciting the Saddam-9/11 chant) added the
coda to his response, "There are more Americans in Al
Qaeda than Iraqis!"
http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/11/09/terror.tape/index.html
http://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/11/09/te...ent/index.html
http://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/09/01/so...ted/index.html
(And this is all besides the usual suspects like John Walker-Lindh,
Jose Padilla and Astrid Aziguirre ...)
And right, even members of the US military. Imagine this
nightmare scenario, while your Irish grandmother is getting
the thrice-over at O'Hare, two American Qaeds - US born,
citizens, and officers ... are doing a preflight check ... in
the cockpit of a B-1 bomber ...
gld
screened more carefully, Al Qaeda has access to US citizens.
On CNN, terrorism expert Peter Bergen (in frustration to
Richard Perle reciting the Saddam-9/11 chant) added the
coda to his response, "There are more Americans in Al
Qaeda than Iraqis!"
http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/11/09/terror.tape/index.html
http://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/11/09/te...ent/index.html
http://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/09/01/so...ted/index.html
(And this is all besides the usual suspects like John Walker-Lindh,
Jose Padilla and Astrid Aziguirre ...)
And right, even members of the US military. Imagine this
nightmare scenario, while your Irish grandmother is getting
the thrice-over at O'Hare, two American Qaeds - US born,
citizens, and officers ... are doing a preflight check ... in
the cockpit of a B-1 bomber ...
gld
Nov 13th 2004, 5:10 am
#35
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Delta Pilots End Era of Luxurious Pay
On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 16:00:35 +0000, Cyrus Afzali wrote:
> On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 15:53:47 GMT, devil <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 15:27:43 +0000, Cyrus Afzali wrote:
>>> The loan guarantees were paid back by Chrysler.
>>The loans, or the loan guarantees?
>
> Chrysler got government-backed loans. The money actually came from
> non-government sources and was paid back to the lenders. The
> government never had to put one thin dime into Chrysler.
Just like the Airbus scenario then.
Point remains, in both cases (just as in these US government-guaranteed
mortgage companies), interest rates were surely much lower than market
value as a result. In my book it's tantamount to a subsidy. That never
got repaid.
And in the event they lose their shirt, it's the taxpayer that holds the
bag.
> On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 15:53:47 GMT, devil <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 15:27:43 +0000, Cyrus Afzali wrote:
>>> The loan guarantees were paid back by Chrysler.
>>The loans, or the loan guarantees?
>
> Chrysler got government-backed loans. The money actually came from
> non-government sources and was paid back to the lenders. The
> government never had to put one thin dime into Chrysler.
Just like the Airbus scenario then.
Point remains, in both cases (just as in these US government-guaranteed
mortgage companies), interest rates were surely much lower than market
value as a result. In my book it's tantamount to a subsidy. That never
got repaid.
And in the event they lose their shirt, it's the taxpayer that holds the
bag.
Nov 13th 2004, 5:58 am
#36
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Delta Pilots End Era of Luxurious Pay
John Mazor wrote:
> "CJS" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>
>>John Mazor wrote:
>>>"Mike Rapoport" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>news:[email protected] rthlink.net...
>>>>"John Mazor" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>>news:[email protected]...
>>>>>"kontiki" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>>>news:[email protected]...
>>>>>>Chris wrote:
>>>>>>>It is amazing these airlines have soaked up billions of Dollars
snip
>>>it is used to fund FAA operational costs, not infrastructure. Do we tax
>>>farmers extra to pay for the services of the Agriculture Department?
>
> No, we
>
>>>give tax breaks and MASSIVE subsidies to them.
>>Hey, just coz you're too stupid to grow corn in the cabin to take
>>advantage of the farm bill doesn't mean you have to criticize our dear
>
> farmers!
>
> Hmm. I wonder if anyone has applied for subsidies not to grow marijuana on
> the north 40? If that flies, I'll gladly take whatever the spiff is for not
> planting on my 1/6 acre. It's costing me an arm and a leg to keep it
> looking like a Scott's lawn as it is.
>
> I'm sure Washington isn't unique in this, but exurban sprawl has pushed
> affluent white collar types to buy small farms way out in the hinterlands as
> vacation or even primary residences. One wonders how many of them are
> dipping into Uncle Sugar's trough for payments not to plant that corn on the
> hillside?
>
> googling... googling... It's worse than I thought. The cost of U.S. market
> price supports for agricultural products-which include tariffs, quotas, and
> price guarantees-amounted to over $15 billion in 2002. And they bitch about
> a one-time $5 billion payout to airlines for 9/11.
It is amazing what folks can do with the rules once the feds lock them
in. We have a new ritzy exurb going in where they noticed a federal
program to encourage broadband in farm areas. They used the subsidy to
set up their cable system for their houses. Well, it used to be farm
land and the feds were sloppy.
> "CJS" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>
>>John Mazor wrote:
>>>"Mike Rapoport" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>news:[email protected] rthlink.net...
>>>>"John Mazor" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>>news:[email protected]...
>>>>>"kontiki" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>>>news:[email protected]...
>>>>>>Chris wrote:
>>>>>>>It is amazing these airlines have soaked up billions of Dollars
snip
>>>it is used to fund FAA operational costs, not infrastructure. Do we tax
>>>farmers extra to pay for the services of the Agriculture Department?
>
> No, we
>
>>>give tax breaks and MASSIVE subsidies to them.
>>Hey, just coz you're too stupid to grow corn in the cabin to take
>>advantage of the farm bill doesn't mean you have to criticize our dear
>
> farmers!
>
> Hmm. I wonder if anyone has applied for subsidies not to grow marijuana on
> the north 40? If that flies, I'll gladly take whatever the spiff is for not
> planting on my 1/6 acre. It's costing me an arm and a leg to keep it
> looking like a Scott's lawn as it is.
>
> I'm sure Washington isn't unique in this, but exurban sprawl has pushed
> affluent white collar types to buy small farms way out in the hinterlands as
> vacation or even primary residences. One wonders how many of them are
> dipping into Uncle Sugar's trough for payments not to plant that corn on the
> hillside?
>
> googling... googling... It's worse than I thought. The cost of U.S. market
> price supports for agricultural products-which include tariffs, quotas, and
> price guarantees-amounted to over $15 billion in 2002. And they bitch about
> a one-time $5 billion payout to airlines for 9/11.
It is amazing what folks can do with the rules once the feds lock them
in. We have a new ritzy exurb going in where they noticed a federal
program to encourage broadband in farm areas. They used the subsidy to
set up their cable system for their houses. Well, it used to be farm
land and the feds were sloppy.
Nov 13th 2004, 6:06 am
#37
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Delta Pilots End Era of Luxurious Pay
Cyrus Afzali wrote:
> On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 15:53:47 GMT, devil <[email protected]> wrote:
>>On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 15:27:43 +0000, Cyrus Afzali wrote:
>>>The loan guarantees were paid back by Chrysler.
>>The loans, or the loan guarantees?
> Chrysler got government-backed loans. The money actually came from
> non-government sources and was paid back to the lenders. The
> government never had to put one thin dime into Chrysler.
Actually the government was clever enough to make some money from the
Chrysler bail out.
> On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 15:53:47 GMT, devil <[email protected]> wrote:
>>On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 15:27:43 +0000, Cyrus Afzali wrote:
>>>The loan guarantees were paid back by Chrysler.
>>The loans, or the loan guarantees?
> Chrysler got government-backed loans. The money actually came from
> non-government sources and was paid back to the lenders. The
> government never had to put one thin dime into Chrysler.
Actually the government was clever enough to make some money from the
Chrysler bail out.
Nov 13th 2004, 6:10 am
#38
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Delta Pilots End Era of Luxurious Pay
Bob Fry wrote:
> "Jay Honeck" <[email protected]> writes:
>>>It is amazing these airlines have soaked up billions of Dollars in Federal
>>>subsidies and still cannot get by.
>>Which was, of course, the reason many of us argued against bailing them out
>>in the first place.
>>If the business climate is such that an airline cannot make money without
>>taxpayer support, let it die. The surviving airlines will pounce on the
>>opportunity, becoming more efficient in the long run.
> Great idea. Let's apply this to the ag business in the USA first
> though.
> In fact, let's apply this to entire states and regions. The entire
> Mid-West and South would collapse without the two Coasts subsidizing
> them. Not a bad thing really.
The collapse will get real interesting as I watch you function without
southern petro chemicals and ports. Wake up the whole US economy is
mixed and one part cannot collapse without the others going.
Note the comment in this thread that 9/11 caused one Canadian airline to
go under. The links go beyond the US.
> "Jay Honeck" <[email protected]> writes:
>>>It is amazing these airlines have soaked up billions of Dollars in Federal
>>>subsidies and still cannot get by.
>>Which was, of course, the reason many of us argued against bailing them out
>>in the first place.
>>If the business climate is such that an airline cannot make money without
>>taxpayer support, let it die. The surviving airlines will pounce on the
>>opportunity, becoming more efficient in the long run.
> Great idea. Let's apply this to the ag business in the USA first
> though.
> In fact, let's apply this to entire states and regions. The entire
> Mid-West and South would collapse without the two Coasts subsidizing
> them. Not a bad thing really.
The collapse will get real interesting as I watch you function without
southern petro chemicals and ports. Wake up the whole US economy is
mixed and one part cannot collapse without the others going.
Note the comment in this thread that 9/11 caused one Canadian airline to
go under. The links go beyond the US.
Nov 13th 2004, 6:55 am
#39
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Delta Pilots End Era of Luxurious Pay
devil wrote:
>
> Point remains, in both cases (just as in these US government-guaranteed
> mortgage companies), interest rates were surely much lower than market
> value as a result.
No, they weren't. Chrysler couldn't get loans at all because they were felt to be a
poor credit risk. The guarantee allowed them to find lenders, but the rates were
actually somewhat higher than those a company like Ford would have had to pay.
George Patterson
If a man gets into a fight 3,000 miles away from home, he *had* to have
been looking for it.
>
> Point remains, in both cases (just as in these US government-guaranteed
> mortgage companies), interest rates were surely much lower than market
> value as a result.
No, they weren't. Chrysler couldn't get loans at all because they were felt to be a
poor credit risk. The guarantee allowed them to find lenders, but the rates were
actually somewhat higher than those a company like Ford would have had to pay.
George Patterson
If a man gets into a fight 3,000 miles away from home, he *had* to have
been looking for it.
Nov 13th 2004, 7:09 am
#40
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Delta Pilots End Era of Luxurious Pay
AbsolutelyCertain wrote:
>
> The terms of the deal may be different, but government rescue of
> corporations is still government rescue of corporations. It is the same
> situation: Unwise interference with the marketplace. The fine print
> doesn't matter.
That's what you regard as "fine print"? Wow!
Now. Explain to me just how the United States would be better off if the government
had let Chrysler go under. Seems to me that Congress' job is to try to keep the U.S.
a nice place to live, and that's exactly what they did. At no cost to the citizenry,
too.
George Patterson
If a man gets into a fight 3,000 miles away from home, he *had* to have
been looking for it.
>
> The terms of the deal may be different, but government rescue of
> corporations is still government rescue of corporations. It is the same
> situation: Unwise interference with the marketplace. The fine print
> doesn't matter.
That's what you regard as "fine print"? Wow!
Now. Explain to me just how the United States would be better off if the government
had let Chrysler go under. Seems to me that Congress' job is to try to keep the U.S.
a nice place to live, and that's exactly what they did. At no cost to the citizenry,
too.
George Patterson
If a man gets into a fight 3,000 miles away from home, he *had* to have
been looking for it.
Nov 13th 2004, 7:23 am
#41
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Delta Pilots End Era of Luxurious Pay
"G.R. Patterson III" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> AbsolutelyCertain wrote:
> >
> > The terms of the deal may be different, but government rescue of
> > corporations is still government rescue of corporations. It is the same
> > situation: Unwise interference with the marketplace. The fine print
> > doesn't matter.
> That's what you regard as "fine print"? Wow!
That's what you regard as just a "loan"? Wow!
news:[email protected]...
> AbsolutelyCertain wrote:
> >
> > The terms of the deal may be different, but government rescue of
> > corporations is still government rescue of corporations. It is the same
> > situation: Unwise interference with the marketplace. The fine print
> > doesn't matter.
> That's what you regard as "fine print"? Wow!
That's what you regard as just a "loan"? Wow!
Nov 13th 2004, 7:26 am
#42
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Delta Pilots End Era of Luxurious Pay
On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 19:55:06 +0000, G.R. Patterson III wrote:
>
>
> devil wrote:
>>
>
>> Point remains, in both cases (just as in these US government-guaranteed
>> mortgage companies), interest rates were surely much lower than market
>> value as a result.
>
> No, they weren't. Chrysler couldn't get loans at all because they were felt to be a
> poor credit risk. The guarantee allowed them to find lenders, but the rates were
> actually somewhat higher than those a company like Ford would have had to pay.
In other words, cheaper than the rates the market would loan them at, when
factoring in the risk. Which BTW is the normal practice.
>
>
> devil wrote:
>>
>
>> Point remains, in both cases (just as in these US government-guaranteed
>> mortgage companies), interest rates were surely much lower than market
>> value as a result.
>
> No, they weren't. Chrysler couldn't get loans at all because they were felt to be a
> poor credit risk. The guarantee allowed them to find lenders, but the rates were
> actually somewhat higher than those a company like Ford would have had to pay.
In other words, cheaper than the rates the market would loan them at, when
factoring in the risk. Which BTW is the normal practice.
Nov 13th 2004, 7:32 am
#43
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Delta Pilots End Era of Luxurious Pay
devil <[email protected]> drivveled on and
onnews:[email protected] t:
> On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 16:00:35 +0000, Cyrus Afzali wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 15:53:47 GMT, devil <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 15:27:43 +0000, Cyrus Afzali wrote:
>>>> The loan guarantees were paid back by Chrysler.
>>>The loans, or the loan guarantees?
>>
>> Chrysler got government-backed loans. The money actually came from
>> non-government sources and was paid back to the lenders. The
>> government never had to put one thin dime into Chrysler.
>
> Just like the Airbus scenario then.
or Boeing.
Bertie
onnews:[email protected] t:
> On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 16:00:35 +0000, Cyrus Afzali wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 15:53:47 GMT, devil <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 15:27:43 +0000, Cyrus Afzali wrote:
>>>> The loan guarantees were paid back by Chrysler.
>>>The loans, or the loan guarantees?
>>
>> Chrysler got government-backed loans. The money actually came from
>> non-government sources and was paid back to the lenders. The
>> government never had to put one thin dime into Chrysler.
>
> Just like the Airbus scenario then.
or Boeing.
Bertie
Nov 13th 2004, 7:35 am
#44
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Delta Pilots End Era of Luxurious Pay
"AbsolutelyCertain" <[email protected]> drivveled on and
onnews:[email protected]:
>
> "G.R. Patterson III" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> AbsolutelyCertain wrote:
>> >
>> > The terms of the deal may be different, but government rescue of
>> > corporations is still government rescue of corporations. It is the
>> > same situation: Unwise interference with the marketplace. The
>> > fine print doesn't matter.
>> That's what you regard as "fine print"? Wow!
>
> That's what you regard as just a "loan"? Wow!
>
That's what you regard as a "comeback"? Wow!
onnews:[email protected]:
>
> "G.R. Patterson III" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> AbsolutelyCertain wrote:
>> >
>> > The terms of the deal may be different, but government rescue of
>> > corporations is still government rescue of corporations. It is the
>> > same situation: Unwise interference with the marketplace. The
>> > fine print doesn't matter.
>> That's what you regard as "fine print"? Wow!
>
> That's what you regard as just a "loan"? Wow!
>
That's what you regard as a "comeback"? Wow!
Nov 13th 2004, 7:39 am
#45
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Delta Pilots End Era of Luxurious Pay
"Bertie the Bunyip" <XZXZ@XZXZ.,XZXZX> wrote in message
news:[email protected]. 74.13...
> "AbsolutelyCertain" <[email protected]> drivveled on and
> onnews:[email protected]:
> >
> > "G.R. Patterson III" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> >>
> >>
> >> AbsolutelyCertain wrote:
> >> >
> >> > The terms of the deal may be different, but government rescue of
> >> > corporations is still government rescue of corporations. It is the
> >> > same situation: Unwise interference with the marketplace. The
> >> > fine print doesn't matter.
> >>
> >> That's what you regard as "fine print"? Wow!
> >
> > That's what you regard as just a "loan"? Wow!
> >
> That's what you regard as a "comeback"? Wow!
It was the best I could do. The straight line just didn't have any pizzazz
to it.
I can only do so much with this kind of material.
news:[email protected]. 74.13...
> "AbsolutelyCertain" <[email protected]> drivveled on and
> onnews:[email protected]:
> >
> > "G.R. Patterson III" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> >>
> >>
> >> AbsolutelyCertain wrote:
> >> >
> >> > The terms of the deal may be different, but government rescue of
> >> > corporations is still government rescue of corporations. It is the
> >> > same situation: Unwise interference with the marketplace. The
> >> > fine print doesn't matter.
> >>
> >> That's what you regard as "fine print"? Wow!
> >
> > That's what you regard as just a "loan"? Wow!
> >
> That's what you regard as a "comeback"? Wow!
It was the best I could do. The straight line just didn't have any pizzazz
to it.
I can only do so much with this kind of material.
