"Evelyn Vogt Gamble (Divamanque)" wrote:
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I beg to disagree. People in Europe and in France in particular are quite
race-conscious, more so than on this side of the pond.

They may take a theoretical stance against prejudice, but expectation of "colored
people" to stay where they belong is higher.

And, at least before 9/11, they were more inclined to let it be known than in the
US. (Meanwhile, judging by some of the articles here, things might have changed in
the US though?)

devil wrote:
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Well, I've not been anywhere in France except Paris, but I stand by what I said
regarding people there - the rest of the country may be totally different, but in
that case it's surprising so many American opera singers of color would choose to
make their homes in Europe!

Being AWARE of race is different than hating or discriminating because of race. I'll
take xenophobia over prejudice any day.

`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~``~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~` Heavenly Chocolates for Valentine's Day
http://www.dwacon.com/lovebase/valentine.htm

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Well, for xenophobiacs, Paris is your place

--georges

remove one to respond

"Evelyn Vogt Gamble (Divamanque)" wrote:
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[usenetquote2]> >[/usenetquote2]
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[usenetquote2]> >[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > I beg to disagree. People in Europe and in France in particular are quite[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > race-conscious, more so than on this side of the pond.[/usenetquote2]
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However, as a white person you can't expect to know what the experience of a black
Parisian is. I have been assured by many Cubans, for instance, that Cuba is not at
all color concious, but this assurance has always come from Cubans who are at the
lighter end of the color spectrum, while I have also heard reliable reports from
darker Cubans that contradict this.

I also have the experience of a very nice Parisian I met in the US, who was very
intrigued by my two little daughters, who are of mixed race. She thought they were
just so adorable, but there was very much a conciousness of how adorable their color
was. It was rather disconcerting to me, although I accepted it as a cultural
difference. When we were actually in Paris, we had no unpleasant experiences at all,
but I will admit that my children attracted some attention, maybe because it was
unusual that they had a white mother? This was in 1986, and times may have chenged.

However, in general, I don't like to give advice to people of color as to how
they will be received, unless I have direct reports from people of color whose
opinion I trust.

Barbara

I'm an African-American woman who also thought that Paris was an utopia for blacks,
but after visiting Paris several times, developing friendships with French people of
different backgrounds, and doing my own research, I've learned quite differently.

It would actually be more correct to say that Paris is an utopia for
African-*Americans*, not blacks in general. The French can be very racist towards
those, black and non-black, from African countries & the Middle East. Africans &
Arabs immigrated to France in large numbers during the industrial boom of the
mid-twentieth century. They were needed for their cheap, undocumented labor, and were
segregated in the banlieues (suburbs) of Paris. The banlieues are now run-down, with
substandard housing & schooling, and high unemployment. Of course neighborhoods like
this are prime breeding grounds for crime, and the people living in them are blamed
for all of France's socio-economic problems. Also, most of these immigrants are
Muslims with their own customs & traditions quite different from those of the French,
and we all know Parisians have little tolerance for people who don't assimilate.

On the other hand, African-Americans experienced such a relief from racial prejudice
(not to mention the lynchings) while in France during World Wars I & II, that we were
more than happy to conform and accept French culture as our own. The black GIs
introduced jazz to the French, and it has been said that they treated the French
people with more respect than the white GIs. These black servicemen came back to the
U.S. reporting what a wonderful, color-blind society they visited, and some of our
best & brightest writers, artists, and musicians then flocked to France, contributing
an enormous amount to French culture.

As an African-American woman, I can tell you that I experience this dichotomy each
time I'm in Paris. The people are extremely warm and friendly towards me (with a few
exceptions, of course), but I often feel it's because of my passport, not my color.

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[usenetquote2]> >[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > I can't speak as a black person, but from what I've seen of Europe (Prague,[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > Vienna, Budapest, Brussels, Paris) people are far less "color conscious" there[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > than here in the states. Certainly in Paris, skin color appears to be no more a[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > factor than whether you have blue or brown eyes, and I've seen chic parisiennes[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > of all shades - all with that identical air of self-possessed sophistication that[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > distinguishes them from women of other nationalities, even before they speak. I[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > imagine that's why so many black American opera singers and entertainers make[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > their homes in Europe - it must be very liberating to be noticed for yourself,[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > without people first observing the color of your skin![/usenetquote2]
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Thanks for your view point. I've heard the above comments as well (that
Afro-Americans are viewed by the french as smething wonderful while Africans were
not)

glen black <[email protected]>
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Thank you, Glen! This is very encouraging!

Cheers...
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[usenetquote2]> >[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > Me and my friend are finally traveling abroad and we are going to try London[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > first. However, London is a very diverse city and we feel comfortable about going[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > there for the first time. We are now interested in traveling to the Nordic[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > countries in order to adore the midnight sun, the fjords, and other spectacular[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > scenery. My question is, how are black vistors treated in these countries? Is it[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > common to see blacks walking around, or will we stick out like a sore thumb? I'm[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > just curious to know what to expect. I also want to visit Iceland one day but[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > noone wants to go with me, and I KNOW I'd stick out there. I just can't myself![/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > The travel bug has hit me hard.[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > Cheers... SpecialK[/usenetquote2]

Barbara Vaughan wrote:
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[usenetquote2]> >[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > devil wrote:[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > >[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > >[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > > I beg to disagree. People in Europe and in France in particular are quite[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > > race-conscious, more so than on this side of the pond.[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > Well, I've not been anywhere in France except Paris, but I stand by what I said[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > regarding people there - the rest of the country may be totally different, but in[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > that case it's surprising so many American opera singers of color would choose to[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > make their homes in Europe![/usenetquote2]
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I go by my wife's observations. Granted, she is of Chinese descent, not black. Still,
there are things anyone can observe. Such as, what the ethnic mix in hotels or
restaurants. Where you see very uniform white; although Annie usually has no
complaints (with a couple of exception and then normally not when with me).

Point is, in Europe, it seems to me that minorities are expected to "know their
place." And to "stick to it."

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You will not have any problems or annoyances travelling in these areas. Tromso calls
itself "Paris of the North", and likes to think it's a modern city (or Town, or
village..) We have a university, with lots of foreign students. Either the university
or the city (I dont remember), is a declared "No Rasism Zone". You may ask whether
such declarations have any "effect", but I think it's an indication that someone has
given the issue some thought, and wants the place to be for everyone. As for Lapland,
the Lapps themselves are a minority, like the American Indians, and would never look
down at anyone "non white".

beefeater

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You think there's no racism among Native Americans?

miguel
--
Hit The Road! Photos and tales from around the world: http://travel.u.nu

Miguel Cruz wrote:

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I immediately believe you that there is. Here in Amsterdam, the four large ethnic
groups are blacks (many Surinamese, Ghanaians and other Africans), Turks, Morrocans,
and Antilleans (many black/white mixed) I often take a night bus home in which these
ethnic groups are all represented, together with (usually only a few) whites like me.
All four groups openly make very racist remarks about the other three groups. But it
is all very good-humoured and actually quite funny. We whites are too politically
correct to participate in this game. However, it is fun and kind of refreshing to
listen to these people.

Sjoerd

SpecialK wrote:
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I like your attitude! Life is too short to avoid doing the things you really want to
do, just because you "might" have negative experiences. (Although, if you think your
appearance might create real problems, I can understand your wanting to check things
out before you go.) I hope you have a simply wonderful trip, and it all lives up to
your expectations!

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Miguel Cruz wrote:
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[usenetquote2]> > As for Lapland, the Lapps themselves are a minority, like the American Indians,[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > and would never look down at anyone "non white".[/usenetquote2]
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I was going to say the same thing. I've seen many examples of minorities who are
extremely racist about other minorities.

Barbara

sjoerd wrote:
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[usenetquote2]> > You think there's no racism among Native Americans?[/usenetquote2]
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Maybe it's all in good fun, but I've seen more vicious forms of racism practised
among minorities, and all of that good fun jibing sometimes lubricates it.

Barbara