On 23 Apr 2003 12:01:31 GMT, greg byshenk wrote:

    >Mason Barge wrote:
    >> On 22 Apr 2003 09:14:57 GMT, greg byshenk wrote:
    >> >Mason Barge wrote:
    >> >> Of those that DID come 300 years ago, they almost exclusively came because they
    >> >> did not want to be persecuted and possibly executed for their religious beliefs.
    >> >This is the grammar-school view of history, but not really accurate.
    >> >Yes, _some_ came to escape persecution, but many others (eg: the
    >> >"Pilgrim Fathers") came to the new world precisely in order to be able
    >> >to persecute those who believed differently.
    >> >Or, as Laurie Anderson so nicely put it: "they came to America because
    >> >the Dutch wouldn't let them punish people for dancing on Sunday."
    >> That's a clever phrase -- like saying the American Revolution was nothing but a
    >> bunch of rich white men who didn't want to pay their taxes -- but less accurate
    >> IMO than saying they wanted to escape religious persecution. Certainly the
    >> Puritans wanted to found colonies of persons with homogenous beliefs, and
    >> severely persecuted heretics or whatever they called them, but still -- they
    >> came to the New World to find religious freedom.
    >It is "a clever phrase", but is also "nicely put" because it is indeed
    >'accurate' -- at least regarding some of those who came to America.
    >How many Americans know that, before sailing from Plymouth, the 'Pilgrims'
    >lived -- freely and without persecution -- for 12 years in Holland? The
    >problem was that Holland was a bit too tolerant of varying religious
    >views, and the Pilgrims found it hard to maintain the integrity of their
    >community. Some, particularly the young, were becoming too assimilated
    >and accustomed to freedom. This just would not do; they needed a place
    >where they could enforce their religious views.
    >In short: they came to America not to obtain religious freedom (they
    >already had that), but to enforce religous _un_freedom.
    >
Nice facts. First, even on the original Mayflower expedition, less than half
the pilgrims were from Holland. Almost all of the Puritans were from England.
Your thesis, while having some truth, is a bizarre oversimplification even for
the 50 or 60 people who had tried life in Holland. And you talk about "grade
school history". Pfft.
--
"If this is coffee, please bring me some tea. If this is tea, please bring me some coffee."
- Abraham Lincoln

Mason Barge wrote:

    > That's a clever phrase -- like saying the American Revolution was nothing but a
    > bunch of rich white men who didn't want to pay their taxes -- but less accurate
    > IMO than saying they wanted to escape religious persecution. Certainly the
    > Puritans wanted to found colonies of persons with homogenous beliefs, and
    > severely persecuted heretics or whatever they called them, but still -- they
    > came to the New World to find religious freedom.

Some people actually believe that, mostly Americans. A couple of religious groups established
colonies in America, but it was more a matter of escaping religious persecution than a search
for religious freedom. The colonies that they established were for their own type. A lot of
Palatine Germans had escaped religious persecution in their homeland and the British gave them
land in America. As a result, many of them were Loyalists, and ended up being facing political
persecution during and after the rebellion. Most of the rest of the masses of immigrants came
over for cheap land and economic opportunity. Of course, the Africans were an exception, since
they didn't come over by choice.

Mason Barge wrote:

    > Of those that DID come 300 years ago, they almost exclusively came because they
    > did not want to be persecuted and possibly executed for their religious beliefs.

It had a lot to do with their political activities too. Shortly after the establishment of the
Puritans colony, the Puritans back in England were involved in a civil war that led to the
execution of the king. They also committed atrocities against the Irish, something the Irish
still blame on England.

    > Say, for example, wonderful free pacifist France. The Accadians came to America
    > because the French government was crucifying them by the thousands on the sides of the roads.

??? The Acadians were the French settlers in Nova Scotia. They were expelled from Canada and
many of them moved to the American colonies or to French colonies.

Mason Barge wrote:
    > On 23 Apr 2003 12:01:31 GMT, greg byshenk wrote:
    > >> >Mason Barge wrote:

    > >> >> Of those that DID come 300 years ago, they almost exclusively came because they
    > >> >> did not want to be persecuted and possibly executed for their religious beliefs.

[...]

    > >In short: they came to America not to obtain religious freedom (they
    > >already had that), but to enforce religous _un_freedom.

    > Nice facts. First, even on the original Mayflower expedition, less than half
    > the pilgrims were from Holland. Almost all of the Puritans were from England.
    > Your thesis, while having some truth, is a bizarre oversimplification even for
    > the 50 or 60 people who had tried life in Holland. And you talk about "grade
    > school history". Pfft.

"Oversimplification"? Certainly; any attempt to discuss such a complex
issue in a few sentences must necessarily be an oversimplification.

That said, what _is_ a "bizarre oversimplification" is the commonly-held
view that most such immigrants came for "religious freedom", which is
demonstrably false. Most such immigrants came not for "religious freedom"
but for the ability to enforce their own particular version(s) of
religious orthodoxy.

And note that my first post in this thread recognized that _some_
immigrants came to escape persecution (though certainly not "almost
exclusively"). That said, even the "escape persecution" question is not a
simple one; it seems clear that at least some subset came not to "escape
persecution" (per se), but to move themselves from the group of those
subject to persecution to the group of those doing the persecuting.


--
greg byshenk - [email protected] - Leiden, NL
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