Air France Crash
Aug 3rd 2005, 12:38 pm
#106
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Air France Crash
Dave Smith writes:
> That was the decision of one of the crew members.
It has not been established that any inappropriate decisions were
made.
> The pilot is a representative of the company, and the company end sup
> holding the bag.
If there is a bag to be held, which has not been established.
> That was the decision of one of the crew members.
It has not been established that any inappropriate decisions were
made.
> The pilot is a representative of the company, and the company end sup
> holding the bag.
If there is a bag to be held, which has not been established.
Aug 3rd 2005, 12:42 pm
#107
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Air France Crash
Dave Smith writes:
> While the crew appear to have done an excellent job in getting the people out of the
> plane very quickly, their survival incredible stroke of luck. There aren't often
> such horrendous crashes without casualties and serious injuries.
Or most crews are less adept at evacuating aircraft. It's hard to
say.
> Whether or not they "caused" the accident is still under review.
Then the remainder of your speculation is unwarranted.
> Typically, airline companies that have crashes see their rates rise dramatically.
Examples?
> It wasn't an act of god.
How do you know?
> It was a piece of equipment that is maintained by the airline
> and with a crew who made the decision to land in a bad storm with unpredictable
> meteorological events going on.
Decisions like that are made every day. It would be impossible to run
modern air travel efficiently if aircraft routinely diverted for every
instance of bad weather.
> Au contraire. The guy has some factual information about the event, the financial
> consequences and the impact on their marketing. Unlike yourself, he is not in a
> position to sit there and make inane comments that have no base in reality.
What is the basis for _your_ comments?
> Two planes lost in 5 years? In the eyes of people who do more than just walk, that is
> hardly a ringing endorsement.
The previous loss was not due to any fault on the part of the crew.
The current loss has yet to be fully evaluated.
> While the crew appear to have done an excellent job in getting the people out of the
> plane very quickly, their survival incredible stroke of luck. There aren't often
> such horrendous crashes without casualties and serious injuries.
Or most crews are less adept at evacuating aircraft. It's hard to
say.
> Whether or not they "caused" the accident is still under review.
Then the remainder of your speculation is unwarranted.
> Typically, airline companies that have crashes see their rates rise dramatically.
Examples?
> It wasn't an act of god.
How do you know?
> It was a piece of equipment that is maintained by the airline
> and with a crew who made the decision to land in a bad storm with unpredictable
> meteorological events going on.
Decisions like that are made every day. It would be impossible to run
modern air travel efficiently if aircraft routinely diverted for every
instance of bad weather.
> Au contraire. The guy has some factual information about the event, the financial
> consequences and the impact on their marketing. Unlike yourself, he is not in a
> position to sit there and make inane comments that have no base in reality.
What is the basis for _your_ comments?
> Two planes lost in 5 years? In the eyes of people who do more than just walk, that is
> hardly a ringing endorsement.
The previous loss was not due to any fault on the part of the crew.
The current loss has yet to be fully evaluated.
Aug 3rd 2005, 12:43 pm
#108
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Air France Crash
JohnT writes:
> That is utter speculation on your part and it is totally uninformed.
It is based on the information available at this time.
> It is quite possible that a more competent flight deck crew may have taken the
> decision to divert, in what seemed to be truly appalling conditions.
The level of competence of the flight-deck crew has not been
established.
> Let us await the results of the Canadian enquiry before thinking about heaping
> praise on Air France.
The evacuation was carried out admirably. An evaluation of
flight-deck decisions will not change this. Good evacuation
procedures are very important to flight safety.
> That is utter speculation on your part and it is totally uninformed.
It is based on the information available at this time.
> It is quite possible that a more competent flight deck crew may have taken the
> decision to divert, in what seemed to be truly appalling conditions.
The level of competence of the flight-deck crew has not been
established.
> Let us await the results of the Canadian enquiry before thinking about heaping
> praise on Air France.
The evacuation was carried out admirably. An evaluation of
flight-deck decisions will not change this. Good evacuation
procedures are very important to flight safety.
Aug 3rd 2005, 12:44 pm
#109
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Air France Crash
Martin writes:
> The lights are always turned off during a landing.
Not all the lights, and not by everyone.
> The lights are always turned off during a landing.
Not all the lights, and not by everyone.
Aug 3rd 2005, 1:13 pm
#110
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Air France Crash
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
(Martin) wrote:
> So you would chose Air France in preference to another airline that
> had never had an accident of any sort?
<IMHO> Any big carrier is going to have an accident now and again. I would
try to avoid an airline that had substantially more-than-average
accidents, but even in those cases any individual flight is far more
likely to land safely than not.
----------------------------------------------
The poster formerly known as [email protected].
My new email address is that one, with the first digit of years in the
current century placed after the first word.
(Martin) wrote:
> So you would chose Air France in preference to another airline that
> had never had an accident of any sort?
<IMHO> Any big carrier is going to have an accident now and again. I would
try to avoid an airline that had substantially more-than-average
accidents, but even in those cases any individual flight is far more
likely to land safely than not.
----------------------------------------------
The poster formerly known as [email protected].
My new email address is that one, with the first digit of years in the
current century placed after the first word.
Aug 3rd 2005, 1:13 pm
#111
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Air France Crash
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] (Mxsmanic) wrote:
> *From:* Mxsmanic <[email protected]>
> *Date:* Wed, 03 Aug 2005 23:30:45 +0200
>
> Stanislas de Kertanguy writes:
>
> > Oh, strange, you don't pretend any more that AF pilots drink alcohol
> > during flight?
>
> Some of them do, from what I've seen, but that doesn't mean that none
> of the pilots fly sober.
How many pilots have you seen in-flight lately?
----------------------------------------------
The poster formerly known as [email protected].
My new email address is that one, with the first digit of years in the
current century placed after the first word.
[email protected] (Mxsmanic) wrote:
> *From:* Mxsmanic <[email protected]>
> *Date:* Wed, 03 Aug 2005 23:30:45 +0200
>
> Stanislas de Kertanguy writes:
>
> > Oh, strange, you don't pretend any more that AF pilots drink alcohol
> > during flight?
>
> Some of them do, from what I've seen, but that doesn't mean that none
> of the pilots fly sober.
How many pilots have you seen in-flight lately?
----------------------------------------------
The poster formerly known as [email protected].
My new email address is that one, with the first digit of years in the
current century placed after the first word.
Aug 3rd 2005, 3:09 pm
#112
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Air France Crash
Martin wrote:
> On Wed, 03 Aug 2005 08:31:14 -0700, "EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>Mxsmanic wrote:
>>>Donna Evleth writes:
>>>>I wholeheartedly agree with you. These highly trained professionals are so
>>>>often not given the credit they deserve. I'm sure they had to deal with
>>>>some panic, and of course a terrifically dangerous situation. The early
>>>>reports, based on the sight of the flaming plane, all indicated major loss
>>>>of life. It didn't happen. These are the kind of cabin staff I want on my
>>>>next flight.
>>>As pilots say, a safe landing is any landing you can walk away from
>>>... and that's exactly what the passengers and crew were able to do
>>>here. The rest doesn't matter. Planes can be replaced. If I were
>>>the CEO of Air France, I'd be in an excellent mood today, despite the
>>>loss of the airframe. Huge airplane crash ... and 100% survival. You
>>>can't ask for better than that, and if any airline could guarantee
>>>odds like that on every flight, nobody would ever have to fear flying
>>>again.
>>I understand what you're saying, but I'd just as soon NOT
>>merely "walk away, alive" from my flight, thank you very
>>much! (I don't "fear" flying, because I figure I've lived a
>> long and healthy life already, and dying in an air
>>disaster is usually quick - simply being alive is dangerous,
>>and we all have to die sometime.)
>
>
> There are better ways to go than falling 10 miles or being burnt
> alive.
True, but few of us (unless we commit suicide, which I've no
desire to do) have much choice in the matter - when our time
comes, it comes. I'm sure we'd all prefer to die painlessly
in our beds of old age, but we can't all be that lucky. It
seems foolish to curtail one's activities for fear of what
MIGHT happen.
> On Wed, 03 Aug 2005 08:31:14 -0700, "EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>Mxsmanic wrote:
>>>Donna Evleth writes:
>>>>I wholeheartedly agree with you. These highly trained professionals are so
>>>>often not given the credit they deserve. I'm sure they had to deal with
>>>>some panic, and of course a terrifically dangerous situation. The early
>>>>reports, based on the sight of the flaming plane, all indicated major loss
>>>>of life. It didn't happen. These are the kind of cabin staff I want on my
>>>>next flight.
>>>As pilots say, a safe landing is any landing you can walk away from
>>>... and that's exactly what the passengers and crew were able to do
>>>here. The rest doesn't matter. Planes can be replaced. If I were
>>>the CEO of Air France, I'd be in an excellent mood today, despite the
>>>loss of the airframe. Huge airplane crash ... and 100% survival. You
>>>can't ask for better than that, and if any airline could guarantee
>>>odds like that on every flight, nobody would ever have to fear flying
>>>again.
>>I understand what you're saying, but I'd just as soon NOT
>>merely "walk away, alive" from my flight, thank you very
>>much! (I don't "fear" flying, because I figure I've lived a
>> long and healthy life already, and dying in an air
>>disaster is usually quick - simply being alive is dangerous,
>>and we all have to die sometime.)
>
>
> There are better ways to go than falling 10 miles or being burnt
> alive.
True, but few of us (unless we commit suicide, which I've no
desire to do) have much choice in the matter - when our time
comes, it comes. I'm sure we'd all prefer to die painlessly
in our beds of old age, but we can't all be that lucky. It
seems foolish to curtail one's activities for fear of what
MIGHT happen.
Aug 3rd 2005, 3:18 pm
#113
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Air France Crash
Martin wrote:
> On Wed, 03 Aug 2005 18:57:59 +0200, Donna Evleth <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>
>>>From: Martin <[email protected]>
>>>Organization: ---------------------
>>>Newsgroups: rec.travel.europe
>>>Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 17:55:49 +0200
>>>Subject: Re: Air France Crash
>>>There are better ways to go than falling 10 miles or being burnt
>>>alive.
>>Terminal cancer with excruciating pain that lasts for months?
>
>
> I'd prefer to die in my sleep.
A friend of mine did just that, a few years ago - he had
shown no signs of being ill (not that any of us were aware
of, anyway), just died in his sleep the night after his 69th
birthday. It was a shock to those he left behind, but
certainly a blessing for him.
Best of all, I think, was my voice coach (who was also a
conductor). He had built the Portland (Oregon) Opera into
quite a respectable regional company, had just finished
conducting a performance of Lucia (with Anna Moffo as the
Lucia). Although he almost never took curtain calls, this
time he did - then went back to his dressing room and
collapsed. (He was DOA when they got him to a hospital.)
To die suddenly, at the peak of one's performing career,
seems an ideal end for a performing artist.
> On Wed, 03 Aug 2005 18:57:59 +0200, Donna Evleth <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>
>>>From: Martin <[email protected]>
>>>Organization: ---------------------
>>>Newsgroups: rec.travel.europe
>>>Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 17:55:49 +0200
>>>Subject: Re: Air France Crash
>>>There are better ways to go than falling 10 miles or being burnt
>>>alive.
>>Terminal cancer with excruciating pain that lasts for months?
>
>
> I'd prefer to die in my sleep.
A friend of mine did just that, a few years ago - he had
shown no signs of being ill (not that any of us were aware
of, anyway), just died in his sleep the night after his 69th
birthday. It was a shock to those he left behind, but
certainly a blessing for him.
Best of all, I think, was my voice coach (who was also a
conductor). He had built the Portland (Oregon) Opera into
quite a respectable regional company, had just finished
conducting a performance of Lucia (with Anna Moffo as the
Lucia). Although he almost never took curtain calls, this
time he did - then went back to his dressing room and
collapsed. (He was DOA when they got him to a hospital.)
To die suddenly, at the peak of one's performing career,
seems an ideal end for a performing artist.
Aug 3rd 2005, 3:52 pm
#114
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Air France Crash
In article <[email protected]>, Martin
<[email protected]> wrote:
> On Wed, 03 Aug 2005 23:27:15 +0200, Mxsmanic <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> >Martin writes:
> >
> >> I haven't flown with Lufthansa since, so no advertisement. Just the
> >> way it should be done in a severe thunderstorm.
> >
> >Next time be sure to communicate your decision to the pilot so that he
> >knows whether or not it's safe to land.
>
> Perhaps one of the passengers should have done that yesterday?
>
> I don't need to communicate anything if the pilot is trained.
Say what you may now, but the Captain was the last person off the
plane... after he walked the entire passenger cabin checking for
injured or stragglers.
jay
Wed Aug 03, 2005
mailto:[email protected]
<[email protected]> wrote:
> On Wed, 03 Aug 2005 23:27:15 +0200, Mxsmanic <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> >Martin writes:
> >
> >> I haven't flown with Lufthansa since, so no advertisement. Just the
> >> way it should be done in a severe thunderstorm.
> >
> >Next time be sure to communicate your decision to the pilot so that he
> >knows whether or not it's safe to land.
>
> Perhaps one of the passengers should have done that yesterday?
>
> I don't need to communicate anything if the pilot is trained.
Say what you may now, but the Captain was the last person off the
plane... after he walked the entire passenger cabin checking for
injured or stragglers.
jay
Wed Aug 03, 2005
mailto:[email protected]
Aug 3rd 2005, 5:29 pm
#115
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Air France Crash
Go Fig writes:
> Say what you may now, but the Captain was the last person off the
> plane... after he walked the entire passenger cabin checking for
> injured or stragglers.
That was good of him. However, we still need to wait for the
evaluation of what he did _prior_ to that, good or bad.
> Say what you may now, but the Captain was the last person off the
> plane... after he walked the entire passenger cabin checking for
> injured or stragglers.
That was good of him. However, we still need to wait for the
evaluation of what he did _prior_ to that, good or bad.
Aug 3rd 2005, 5:30 pm
#116
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Air France Crash
EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque) writes:
> Best of all, I think, was my voice coach (who was also a
> conductor). He had built the Portland (Oregon) Opera into
> quite a respectable regional company, had just finished
> conducting a performance of Lucia (with Anna Moffo as the
> Lucia). Although he almost never took curtain calls, this
> time he did - then went back to his dressing room and
> collapsed. (He was DOA when they got him to a hospital.)
> To die suddenly, at the peak of one's performing career,
> seems an ideal end for a performing artist.
Wouldn't it be more ideal to die after the career has ended?
> Best of all, I think, was my voice coach (who was also a
> conductor). He had built the Portland (Oregon) Opera into
> quite a respectable regional company, had just finished
> conducting a performance of Lucia (with Anna Moffo as the
> Lucia). Although he almost never took curtain calls, this
> time he did - then went back to his dressing room and
> collapsed. (He was DOA when they got him to a hospital.)
> To die suddenly, at the peak of one's performing career,
> seems an ideal end for a performing artist.
Wouldn't it be more ideal to die after the career has ended?
Aug 3rd 2005, 5:43 pm
#118
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Air France Crash
No Spam wrote:
> "Donna Evleth" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:BF16C3B0.1381A%[email protected]...
> > I wonder here why the Toronto airport was allowing planes to land at all,
> > given the weather conditions. Why weren't they re-routing them?
> In part, because the decisions are not made after
> the fact, by amateur armchair meteorologists and
> controllers, in the absencce of the facts.
What kind of a way is that to run an airport? - don't they have USENET
in Toronto?
G;
> "Donna Evleth" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:BF16C3B0.1381A%[email protected]...
> > I wonder here why the Toronto airport was allowing planes to land at all,
> > given the weather conditions. Why weren't they re-routing them?
> In part, because the decisions are not made after
> the fact, by amateur armchair meteorologists and
> controllers, in the absencce of the facts.
What kind of a way is that to run an airport? - don't they have USENET
in Toronto?
G;
Aug 3rd 2005, 8:24 pm
#119
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Air France Crash
On Wed, 03 Aug 2005 20:13:20 -0500, [email protected] wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Martin) wrote:
>> So you would chose Air France in preference to another airline that
>> had never had an accident of any sort?
><IMHO> Any big carrier is going to have an accident now and again. I would
>try to avoid an airline that had substantially more-than-average
>accidents, but even in those cases any individual flight is far more
>likely to land safely than not.
Not many would travel by air if this wasn't true :-)
--
Martin
>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>(Martin) wrote:
>> So you would chose Air France in preference to another airline that
>> had never had an accident of any sort?
><IMHO> Any big carrier is going to have an accident now and again. I would
>try to avoid an airline that had substantially more-than-average
>accidents, but even in those cases any individual flight is far more
>likely to land safely than not.
Not many would travel by air if this wasn't true :-)
--
Martin
Aug 3rd 2005, 8:26 pm
#120
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Air France Crash
On Wed, 03 Aug 2005 20:13:21 -0500, [email protected] wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>,
>[email protected] (Mxsmanic) wrote:
>> *From:* Mxsmanic <[email protected]>
>> *Date:* Wed, 03 Aug 2005 23:30:45 +0200
>>
>> Stanislas de Kertanguy writes:
>>
>> > Oh, strange, you don't pretend any more that AF pilots drink alcohol
>> > during flight?
>>
>> Some of them do, from what I've seen, but that doesn't mean that none
>> of the pilots fly sober.
>How many pilots have you seen in-flight lately?
Flights of fancy or reality?
I assume mxsmanic meant reported in the press, in which case I have
seen two this year.
--
Martin
>In article <[email protected]>,
>[email protected] (Mxsmanic) wrote:
>> *From:* Mxsmanic <[email protected]>
>> *Date:* Wed, 03 Aug 2005 23:30:45 +0200
>>
>> Stanislas de Kertanguy writes:
>>
>> > Oh, strange, you don't pretend any more that AF pilots drink alcohol
>> > during flight?
>>
>> Some of them do, from what I've seen, but that doesn't mean that none
>> of the pilots fly sober.
>How many pilots have you seen in-flight lately?
Flights of fancy or reality?
I assume mxsmanic meant reported in the press, in which case I have
seen two this year.
--
Martin
